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Thread: Good video example of MJ musicality?

  1. #21
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    There is also this one interestinig to see the muggles dancing in the background.

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    So where have you posted them?
    Oops, missed this - sorry.

    They're on the GargleBlaster blues forum, here's the post:
    Plague!! or 'on the dance known as Ceroc' - Page 18 - Gargle Blaster Blues

    I have, of course, taken all the credit for finding them

  3. #23
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    I'm not going to bother subscribing to that forum to reply, but I'm astounded by some of the opinions expressed there.

    It makes me think of what may be a "real" musician's reaction to a Casio keyboard...

    "How can it be a musical instrument when you can't actually say what it sounds like?"

    "It might be making sounds that sound like notes, but it's hardly musical, is it?"

    "Sure, it's nice as a toy for people who can't play a proper instrument, but how dumb do you have to be not to be able to play a proper piano?"

    "Compared to the typical concert pianists I see, these people playing with their Casio keyboards can't possibly be called musicians!?"



    Oh, it also reminds me of IBM PC users who mocked the Macintosh as a toy computer. Usually the mockers don't actually have a clue what they're talking about. Don't knock it until you try it!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  4. #24
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'm not going to bother subscribing to that forum to reply, but I'm astounded by some of the opinions expressed there.
    Yes. Makes me appreciate this place all the more, really.

    Of course, this forum is lucky to have wonderful moderators :pat each other on back icon:

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Oh, it also reminds me of IBM PC users who mocked the Macintosh as a toy computer. Usually the mockers don't actually have a clue what they're talking about. Don't knock it until you try it!
    Well, yeah, but Macs are rubbish.

    Seriously, there are some reasonable and well-thought-out critiques on that thread.

    And it's valid to say that the overall standard of MJ dancing isn't as high as in some other forms; and that this is reflected in the paucity of great MJ dance clips available.

    It's valid to say that the "no footwork" thing Ceroc use is controversial at best.

    It's valid to say that we have problems defining the dance itself. And so on.

    But I agree, it's not valid to say all this "Ooo, you're not a real dancer" rubbish.

    Although it's quite refreshing arguing with a new bunch of people. I think I've got you lot all running scared by now or something

  5. #25
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Of course, this forum is lucky to have wonderful moderators :pat each other on back icon:



    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Well, yeah, but Macs are rubbish.
    I take it all back! The Mac-using moderators are wonderful.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Seriously, there are some reasonable and well-thought-out critiques on that thread.
    Sure...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    And it's valid to say that the overall standard of MJ dancing isn't as high as in some other forms; and that this is reflected in the paucity of great MJ dance clips available.
    Then again, I'm sure there are some really terrible WCS, Lindy, Blues, Tango, Salsa, etc., dancers out there.

    Perhaps the difference is that MJ allows poorer dances to have fun and not worry.

    I still reject that MJ doesn't have the scope to produce as good dancers as any other style.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    It's valid to say that the "no footwork" thing Ceroc use is controversial at best.
    Ceroc has footwork, it's just not normally taught. The question asked about wrong-footing someone reveals this. If you follow moves as taught, they work.

    If you make up your own moves you'll have learnt to either sense which foot your partner is on, and base your lead on that; or be able to lead your partner to be on a particular foot.

    If you can sense your partner's weight changes then you can even cope with ladies who triple-step!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    It's valid to say that we have problems defining the dance itself. And so on.
    That's true for sure. But it's a bit like asking someone to define what makes up a particularly wide-ranging martial art.

    First, it's actually a pretty pointless exercise, and secondly, if you haven't done it, I don't think you can really understand.

    As MJ dancers, we "know it when we see it". Isn't that enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    But I agree, it's not valid to say all this "Ooo, you're not a real dancer" rubbish.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Ceroc has footwork, it's just not normally taught.
    Have some rep for today's most ridiculous comment

  7. #27
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I still reject that MJ doesn't have the scope to produce as good dancers as any other style.
    In a sense, obviously true. But by the same argument, taking people who've never danced, not giving them any rules or instruction whatsoever, and seeing what happens has the scope to produce good dancers. What's more pertinent is whether it actually does produce good dancers.

    And the truth is, it's really, really hard to find clips of MJ that stand up against the best (or even 'near-best') of other dances.

    Now I think there are a combination of factors here that makes things look worse than they actually are, but if you try the search yourself with a critical eye, the problem is pretty apparent.

    None of which is to hide the fact that most of the people on GGB are a somewhat pathetic and small-souled bunch. Heck - we've provided them with more dance discussion in 2 days than they've had in the last two months.

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    And the truth is, it's really, really hard to find clips of MJ that stand up against the best (or even 'near-best') of other dances.
    Look at our own youtube thread - MJ clips hardly register, it's mostly WCS it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    None of which is to hide the fact that most of the people on GGB are a somewhat pathetic and small-souled bunch. Heck - we've provided them with more dance discussion in 2 days than they've had in the last two months.
    I knew you couldn't resist joining in the debate on that thread

    I think we've probably doubled their monthly membership also

  9. #29
    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    None of which is to hide the fact that most of the people on GGB are a somewhat pathetic and small-souled bunch. Heck - we've provided them with more dance discussion in 2 days than they've had in the last two months.
    All of which is totally besides the point.

    But, as there are no decent YouTube clips that show off musicality in MJ as opposed to the hundreds of examples available for other dances, let's just call the people who are pointing that out names ... yeah ... that'll work!

    Fifteen love to David Franklin

  10. #30
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    But, as there are no decent YouTube clips that show off musicality in MJ as opposed to the hundreds of examples available for other dances, let's just call the people who are pointing that out names ... yeah ... that'll work!
    Well, some of them are amazingly dumb, patronising and narrow-minded.

    Mind you, so are some of us (not me, of course )

    So I suppose it evens out.

  11. #31
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    All of which is totally besides the point.
    The original thread point, sure, but (predictably), we went OT as soon as the link to GGB was posted.

    But, as there are no decent YouTube clips that show off musicality in MJ as opposed to the hundreds of examples available for other dances, let's just call the people who are pointing that out names ... yeah ... that'll work!
    Actually, my name-calling has virtually nothing to do with their discussion of MJ musicality (though I think any impartial observer would say several of their posts went too far). It's reading the rest of their "forum" that puts me off them. (And to be honest, several post on other dance forums and they haven't endeared themselves to me there, either).

  12. #32
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Thought this segment showed a lot of intelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy
    To be completely honest, people don't need "lessons" to learn this crap. I see people out dancing often (not at our swing dances, but at weddings, bars, etc) who just mimic what they see with no set footwork. That's all MJ *is* is mimicking other dances- poorly.
    ~Katy

  13. #33
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    If you look at most of the WCS clips that show good musicality, they fall into two categories - choreographed dance routines, and invitational DWAS comps.

    In MJ you get one choreographed section - showcase. In WCS you get 3 - classic, showcase and cabaret. It is almost always the classic that people use to show how good musicality can be in WCS. You are unlikely to get anything as good in MJ when you have to blend the characteristics of all three competitions together, even if you had the same standard of dancers.

    However I think the biggest thing missing is the best dancers freestyling with each other. How many WCS videos in the YouTube thread show the top pros dancing in competition with someone other than their regular partner. Now tell me how many MJ DWAS competitions have had any open dancers drawn with each other?

    If competition organisers would start running invitational DWAS divisions, you would start getting some good enjoyable musicality clips on youtube.

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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Freestyle:
    Choreographed routine:

    Also for freestyle:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    Ali and kevin, "Everything" routine, Sidney
    On a "reality" note, if you showed these clips to "non-dancers" - I am sure they would call it dancing and they would be most impressed.

    I think they all show different characteristics of the dance and are all good in thier own right.

    My favorite being the "Le Bop" one with Debs and Alex.

    Am I getting old, or been around too long - coz I have met, all these guys except Ali. It is a small world....

  15. #35
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    If competition organisers would start running invitational DWAS divisions, you would start getting some good enjoyable musicality clips on youtube.
    Don't you think the judging criteria would have to change? (Or more accurately, the competitors' perception thereof)?

    My feeling, both from looking at the MJ clips and having competed, is that people feel a lot of pressure to "keep the moves coming", "get out a few flash moves", and "don't screw up". Musicality is also in the mix, but it's not seen as important enough to sacrifice the other three parts.

    I also wonder if having spotlight (as in "single couple on the floor") rounds would make a difference. If you're one of 10 couples, there's probably some justification for thinking it's more important to have 3 or 4 moments that are big and flashy and grab attention, as opposed to being more musical, but less attention grabbing. When you're the only couple out there, the balance is somewhat different.

  16. #36
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Musicality is also in the mix, but it's not seen as important enough to sacrifice the other three parts.
    And there you have it. Until we start awarding the marks for musicality ... or deducting marks for the lack of it ... competitions will be dominated by big/flash moves .... and thats not just a personal view, a number of judges have said similar things

  17. #37
    Registered User Lost Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    The film clips post by DB are all very good examples of MJ but what stands out for me when comparing these with WCS film clips is not anything about the quality of the dancing it is the actual technical quality of the filming. Virtually all the WCS clips that one sees showing the top dancers are of a high technical quality and appear to have been shot using at least semi pro equipment. It is therefore taken for granted that the camera will be steady, people wont walk in front of it, the sound quality will be good, it wont be too dark and the dancers will be very clearly shown and not too far away or drifting out of shot from time to time. This absolutely cannot be said for any MJ clips that I have seen including the ones DB posted. Therefore technically and aesthetically as pieces of film they suffer considerably in comparison to WCS clips and it is thus harder to appreciate the standard of the dancing.

    One other point worth adding is that most if not all of the top WCS dancers in the USA are professional full time dancers. This is not the case with MJ.

  18. #38
    Registered User Lost Leader's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I also wonder if having spotlight (as in "single couple on the floor") rounds would make a difference. If you're one of 10 couples, there's probably some justification for thinking it's more important to have 3 or 4 moments that are big and flashy and grab attention, as opposed to being more musical, but less attention grabbing. When you're the only couple out there, the balance is somewhat different.
    Good point - nearly all the best WCS clips show exactly that, just one couple on the floor performing a choreographed routine. Mind you, even where MJ couples have performed showcase routines in competitions when they are the only couple on the floor there never seems to be any decent footage of it on You Tube.

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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    Good point - nearly all the best WCS clips show exactly that, just one couple on the floor performing a choreographed routine. Mind you, even where MJ couples have performed showcase routines in competitions when they are the only couple on the floor there never seems to be any decent footage of it on You Tube.

    This might have something to do with the fact that at most champs in the past - you are not allowed to video, the organisers then put out a DVD or Video for profit. Which is often not the best quality, and they have "rights" on the video.

  20. #40
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Good video example of MJ musicality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    The film clips post by DB are all very good examples of MJ but what stands out for me when comparing these with WCS film clips is not anything about the quality of the dancing it is the actual technical quality of the filming.
    To be honest, I think the audio-sync is often a little questionable as well. People are dancing to the beat, but they're not on the beat, if you know what I mean. (Or maybe it's just me being off-time... ) I think this can be really insidious, because it's not enough to make you think "hey, they're dancing really off time", but it's just enough to have you thinking "I don't know why, but this doesn't feel very connected to the music".

    As for the rest - I don't think semi-pro equipment makes as much difference as having a proper official camera person. For MJ, too often it's either "locked off tripod" (so you can't be zoomed in much or people will go out of frame), or it's "unoffical camcorder recording as people move in, out and around you and you try not to look to obvious to the organizers". But if I look at the footage I've got of our practices (locked off tripod), the actual video quality is absolutely fine - it's just I'd need to do a "zoom-pan-and-scan" transfer if I wanted to get decent detail once it was put on YouTube.

    Having said that, you're absolutely right about the lighting.

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