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Thread: Community : What helps to make or break it.

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Firstly; perspective clarification: Local (as opposed to web) community is hugely important to me. I despair when I witness communities fragment, and am truly heartened when I see community build, or remain strong in the face of adversity.

    I was in Beeston, at our local organic supermarket (about the size of a medium-sized standard shop). It seems that the next door restaurant wants to expand into this shop, when leases come up for renewal. End result? Beeston and the surrounding area will lose it's only real independant organic shop.

    Not only is it a shop, but also a slightly social place, where people of similar (mostly organic) interests bump into each other and chat. This too will be lost.

    It seems that we are living in a world that values cheapness and budget prices above all else. And if community suffers, but can buy cheaper food, then that's a good thing!!


    Local shops, are being lost in favour of larger central Tescos and Asdas.
    Local pubs and post offices are disappearing.
    Small local schools, hospitals, police and fire stations seem to be centralising into new and 'better' ones [schools in particular]
    It seems that local community centres are becoming less of a centre for community gathering as they once were.
    And I guess that I'd have to concede that with religion becoming less prominent in our lives, fewer people now meet at church.
    Lots of this is also to do with internet activity as well .... too much of a good thing, maybe?

    And so, what is the result? The quick witted, street-wise kids start ruling the neighbourhood by fear. Drugs and weapons are the dish of the day.

    Where does it all end? Or am I talking total tripe? Maybe community has no real importance in today's world.

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    I think what is happening is that the 'scale' of physical communities is being expanded and homogenized into a "City" community rather than a "Parish" community. The needs of the majority are being considered to take into account the minority: ie the big retailers stock organic, but still provide mass produced. Schools are being consolidated, but specialist schools are being built. Emergency call centres are being 'centralised', but workers are being assigned 'localities'.

    Instead of a hundred nodes; each providing a smaller service, all inter-connected with each other; we have ten bigger nodes, providing a more 'uniform' service with a larger connection between each other.

    In terms of "community", the result is that there are too many people to know - one face lost in the crowd. So everyone builds their own 'communities' around common interests. The location of the social community becomes more important than the location of the 'home' where the traditional community was established. This leaves a vacuum around the 'home' where there are no social ties, no ethical rules of community, no friendships; everyone is a stranger in a location I live in that has nothing to do with "me".

    Where does it end? Conclaves of "real" communities being built with common social interests. The "home" being transitory and moving where either the greatest social need is or the greatest working need - working & 'sleeping' in one place and socialising & 'living' in another. The drugs, weapons and shadow life being lived between these two places and being inhabited by the social outcasts, the lawless and the poor.

    {Perhaps there is a novel there }

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Yes and the aforementioned Tesco have finally got their way in forcing Beeston Pet Mart to shut down too. 30+ years that place had been going and I for one loved it. Its just awful.

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    ...... Or am I talking total tripe? .

    Not all all

    Our local high street, a thieving community with 2 butchers, Baker, veggie shop, two delis, old fashioned tobacconists, Chinese takeaway ( that been in the same family for 60 years ) amazing hardware store (owned by our local DJ) 2 cycle shops, Spanish café bar ( that runs Spanish lessons) Home made Birthday cake shop, upholsterer, A splendid shop that sell, big boy toys ( chain saws and ride on movers )

    All under threat from the Word Domineering Tesco

    PS I recently asked a lady from my class over dinner, I ask her “is there was anything you do not eat.”
    Her reply “Tripe”

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    Not all all

    Our local high street, a thieving community with 2 butchers, Baker, veggie shop, two delis, old fashioned tobacconists, Chinese takeaway ( that been in the same family for 60 years ) amazing hardware store (owned by our local DJ) 2 cycle shops, Spanish café bar ( that runs Spanish lessons) Home made Birthday cake shop, upholsterer, A splendid shop that sell, big boy toys ( chain saws and ride on movers )

    All under threat from the Word Domineering Tesco

    PS I recently asked a lady from my class over dinner, I ask her “is there was anything you do not eat.”
    Her reply “Tripe”
    That did make me laugh... I know it's a spelling mistake but I still couldn't help myself but imagine all the butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in this peaceful little village lying in wait to mug the next passer by...

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    Cool Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I was in Beeston, at our local organic supermarket (about the size of a medium-sized standard shop). It seems that the next door restaurant wants to expand into this shop, when leases come up for renewal. End result? Beeston and the surrounding area will lose it's only real independant organic shop.

    Not only is it a shop, but also a slightly social place, where people of similar (mostly organic) interests bump into each other and chat. This too will be lost.
    Perhaps the restaurant will have weekly hippy tree hugging anti-capitalist evenings, where all the old organic shop customers can socialise and put the world to rights over a steaming bowl of GM lentil broth.

    If you can't change something - learn to work with it

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I was in Beeston, at our local organic supermarket (about the size of a medium-sized standard shop). It seems that the next door restaurant wants to expand into this shop, when leases come up for renewal. End result? Beeston and the surrounding area will lose it's only real independant organic shop.

    Not only is it a shop, but also a slightly social place, where people of similar (mostly organic) interests bump into each other and chat. This too will be lost.
    If the organic supermarket has a good costumer base, they should be able to move to new (bigger?) premises and continue to thrive. No?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    I sort of incline to the belief that community was irreparably damaged in the industrial revolution, and that we are still working towards something with which to replace it.

    In 1700, almost nobody worked away from where they lived (exception, soldiers, sailors and fishermen); a man could stand in a village street and name everyone who lived there and all their relatives - true of many town streets, probably - and almost everybody could visit all their relatives during a Sunday stroll.

    Slightly different for the middle classes - women might move several miles away from their family home when they married. The upper middle classes might go to different parts of the country, but I bet even that wasn't very common.

    If you were a bad husband, everyone in the village knew about it. If someone turned up scrumping apples in your garden, you would know his name, his parents, and where he lived - and whether he was up to ordinary mischief or a bit of a thug.

    But of course there were busybodies and nosy neighbours and if your husband turned out to be a skirt-chaser once you had married him - tough. No divorce.

    It was the harnessing of energy that changed everything. No mass production without cheap and simple power sources. Mass production requires technological advances, and technological advances require progress in pure science, and the latter two produced modern medicine, modern food production, modern entertainment.

    If an organic shop is profitable, and the restaurant is profitable, then the landlord is able to choose who is going to provide the best income. If people want to go to the restaurant, it's not unreasonable for them to have no reservations about it moving into the premises next door.

    Of course capitalism is skewed, seriously so, by multi-national corporations, but otherwise, it's the business face of democracy. If Tesco didn't think it would make money by opening a high-street shop, it wouldn't do it. It only makes money if lots of people come through the doors.

    Nevertheless, we still mourn the passing of things that we treasure. On my way back from freestyle nights at Hammersmith or Ashtons I used to love stopping at the top end of Brick Lane and having a salt beef bagel in the early hourse of the morning. But I can't see those shops staying open for ever...

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Sounds like the Valley,s in Wales where I was born and breed.

    Everybody and I mean everybody knew everybody else, it was a magical place and you were as safe as you could be, except on a Saturday night when fighting was the order of the drunks, thats why I dont drink.

    I miss the "Old Country".

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    That did make me laugh... I know it's a spelling mistake but I still couldn't help myself but imagine all the butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in this peaceful little village lying in wait to mug the next passer by...

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If the organic supermarket has a good costumer base, they should be able to move to new (bigger?) premises and continue to thrive. No?
    I think thats 'wear' their going wrong thieves dealing in costumes ?

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I think thats 'wear' their going wrong thieves dealing in costumes ?
    Oops!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    I was in Beeston, at our local organic supermarket (about the size of a medium-sized standard shop). It seems that the next door restaurant wants to expand into this shop, when leases come up for renewal. End result? Beeston and the surrounding area will lose it's only real independant organic shop.
    But if the community wants to have an organic shop, they will have one. If the current owners are making a profit they'll stay, or, if offered mucho monies, take the money and move to new premises in the same area. Only community indifference will cause you to lose the organic shop entirely either because the shop is not profitable, or no one wants to run it anymore.

    It seems that we are living in a world that values cheapness and budget prices above all else. And if community suffers, but can buy cheaper food, then that's a good thing!!
    Well you know it isn't, but community is a difficult thing to nurture, segragated as we are by labels such as young/old/family/high flier/blue collar/white collar/gay/muslim or whatever. People need to want to belong to the wider community.

    And so, what is the result? The quick witted, street-wise kids start ruling the neighbourhood by fear. Drugs and weapons are the dish of the day.
    The age of deference is gone. People are now more equal than they ever were before. I see societies selfish flexing as a temporary set back and a necessary step in civilisation. If only the government (local and national) led by example and was seen to help far more than it hindered.

    Where does it all end? Or am I talking total tripe? Maybe community has no real importance in today's world.
    It does - look at how the media and the internet have brought a sharing of information and brought people together. Localised community has suffered due to less religiosity, culture clashes and faster lifestyles with more personal forms of entertainment. Its a short term problem, don't worry about it and trust me, I'm a smurf!

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    On a related theme: How selfless do you need to be to be a part of a community? Is the growing trend of "me, me, me; mine, mine, mine" dissolving communities?

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    I have been reading this thread with great interest.

    I personally feel that communities are very important. Coming from a Greek Cypriot family the sense of communtiy is something which is seen to be of great importance. I have found there is a big sense of community among the local greeks in my area. Much of this centres around the church, which is where many people meet, but even those who are not particularly religious are made to feel welcome when they attend various events. The yearly summer fete has also become very popular with non-greek local residents and there are several greek/mediteranean shops thriving (or should that be thieving) within the area. I think this is a great example of community. The Greeks/Cypriots many of whom lost their homes during the Cypriot troubles have built their own community as well as successfully integrating into a new community.

    The second reason that I have found this thread interesting is that at the school I teach in we are developing a new strand to the curriculum called Enterprise. This is made up of six different elements, one of which is social. During the social elements pupils are taught about communities and social interactions. Reading these posts has backed up my feelings that communities still have am important role to play in our lives.

    So what do other people feel we should be teaching pupils within this area of the curriculum to help reverse the increasing segregation of once vibrant communities?

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgious dancer View Post
    ... During the social elements pupils are taught about communities and social interactions. Reading these posts has backed up my feelings that communities still have am important role to play in our lives.

    So what do other people feel we should be teaching pupils within this area of the curriculum to help reverse the increasing segregation of once vibrant communities?
    I think that teaching people about various social communities can be a double edged sword: It outlines differences between communities. Which is OK on an intellectual level, but doesn't that have the danger of reinforcing prejudices and creating segregation? Can it be taught without being judgemental? Can it be taught in religious based schools without being judgemental?

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post

    Local shops, are being lost in favour of larger central Tescos and Asdas.
    Local pubs and post offices are disappearing.
    Small local schools, hospitals, police and fire stations seem to be centralising into new and 'better' ones [schools in particular]
    It seems that local community centres are becoming less of a centre for community gathering as they once were.
    And I guess that I'd have to concede that with religion becoming less prominent in our lives, fewer people now meet at church.
    Lots of this is also to do with internet activity as well .... too much of a good thing, maybe?
    How does the above give you below ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post


    And so, what is the result? The quick witted, street-wise kids start ruling the neighbourhood by fear. Drugs and weapons are the dish of the day.
    Are you suggesting people dont know the local kids that hang around the new Tescos but did know them when they use hang about outside the local 'paper shop' as they did in 'my day' ?

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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    When I was a kid I was misbehaving in our street and received a clip around the ear from one of our neighbours, I went home and told my dad who gave me another clip saying whatever you did you probaly deserved it.

    Try clipping a youth today and the parents will be straight round your house and all hell will be let lose.

    DTS XXX XXX

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But if the community wants to have an organic shop, they will have one. If the current owners are making a profit they'll stay, or, if offered mucho monies, take the money and move to new premises in the same area. Only community indifference will cause you to lose the organic shop entirely either because the shop is not profitable, or no one wants to run it anymore.
    Well .... errrr .... yes, you're quite right really? I think I was simply using it to try to make a point!! In fact, the landlord seems to be telling the shop one thing and the restaurant something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well you know it isn't, but community is a difficult thing to nurture, segregated as we are by labels such as young/old/family/high flier/blue collar/white collar/gay/Muslim or whatever. People need to want to belong to the wider community.
    I'd say that smaller communities are easier to build and maintain. I believe that studies seem to suggest that groups over 4-500 start to lose autonomy, and start becoming less safe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    The age of deference is gone. People are now more equal than they ever were before. I see societies selfish flexing as a temporary set back and a necessary step in civilisation. If only the government (local and national) led by example and was seen to help far more than it hindered.
    People certainly are more equal, however I don't see any government being able (or perhaps not willing) to behave selflessly. I see any major changes working from the bottom up, rather than top down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    It does - look at how the media and the internet have brought a sharing of information and brought people together. Localised community has suffered due to less religiosity, culture clashes and faster lifestyles with more personal forms of entertainment. Its a short term problem, don't worry about it and trust me, I'm a smurf!
    Yes, the media has brought us lots, especially in terms of information sharing, and building up of great reference material. However, it is also a source of great distraction, that allows us to escape from the real world, thus never having to interact with real people.

    I do worry ... a little, but am always heartened by folk around me that buck the trend!

    [ps nice response! ... sorry for the late reply .... rep on its way]

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I think that teaching people about various social communities can be a double edged sword: It outlines differences between communities. Which is OK on an intellectual level, but doesn't that have the danger of reinforcing prejudices and creating segregation? Can it be taught without being judgemental? Can it be taught in religious based schools without being judgemental?
    I agree ... it can be. The difference that would make the difference (IMO) ... is all accepting (the validity) of another way of life, without necessarily disagreeing with it ... or agreeing to disagree, agreeably!

    With the best will in the world, I am quite convinced that our natural instinct is to dismiss other ways of being, or behaving as being wrong. I've seen it in the face of people that they so often cannot accept (as valid) others' radical ideas. I, still occasionally have to catch myself calling someone 'wrong' for doing something that I wouldn't .... or don't understand.

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Community : What helps to make or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    How does the above give you below ??

    ....

    Are you suggesting people dont know the local kids that hang around the new Tescos but did know them when they use hang about outside the local 'paper shop' as they did in 'my day' ?
    No. I'm painting a picture of what I see, and the effects of the breakdown of community in my eyes. There is no direct cause-effect link; just a generalisation.

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