Nice Ways To Say Get Lost!!!

[Jive Brummie]

This is probably a harsh title for a thread but I'm interested in peoples opinion on the subject and need your advice...

Only since the Mussleburgh competition has this happened to me. When I've been dancing this week, i've ended up with a few women who plainly will not take a lead. Now from what I can gather, they're experienced dancers, certainly not beginners, and to be perfectly honest... should know better. Is that a bit harsh??

Very recently I danced with a lady, who, besides being very nice, would have been better off arm wrestling than dancing. Now I go to the gym and work out and all that good stuff, but she had me coming off the dance flloor aching. And I have to be honest, although I didn't do this, half way through the dance I felt like walking off.

So, to the dilemma. Is it P.C. to say something to your partner about this or would saying something be just rude?? I didn't say anything at the time. Instead I aired my displeasure to the missus, who soon got bored with my inane ranting... so I shut up!!!

While I'm moaning, I'll get this off my chest as well. Intermediate class's being done by people who've been dancing a very short time. Example being my partner at a class recently who'd been dancing less than 6 weeks, and the guy next to me who's partner had been dancing for 3 weeks. Don't get me wrong the woman I danced with was a good lead... just like last night's arm wrestler !!! But should these people really have been there. Is it not detrimental to there progress to go intermediate too soon as they've not perfected their beginners moves yet. I didn't do an intermediate class until I'd danced for 4 months, and even then I was terrified I muck it up.

Sorry this post is so long and 'moany' but I am genuinely interested in what you all think about this....

James.



P.s the woman in question wasn't you Franck!!!! But next time can you pick a slower one??

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
So, to the dilemma. Is it P.C. to say something to your partner about this or would saying something be just rude?? I didn't say anything at the time.

This is a real dilemma James, as saying something could really hurt the feelings of the person you're dancing with, and in the long term won't make friends
However not saying anything hurts you, and of course doesn't solve the situation...
If it's as bad as you describe it though, something needs to be done, especially if the ladies are not beginners. The best thing I can think of, is to mention it to the teachers and ask them to have a dance and bring up the topic with them.
You can also ask the Taxi-dancers, but if the person isn't a Beginners, they might get just as offended
Apart from that, the only course of action while on the dance floor, short of walking off if someone is really injuring you, is to take defensive action (which has been discussed a lot on this forum, though I don't have time to look just now ). Lead less, do very simple moves, like long armjives and baskets, letting go of the hand at the first sign of heavy pull...
That way the dance will be duller, but a great deal safer.

While I'm moaning, I'll get this off my chest as well. Intermediate class's being done by people who've been dancing a very short time. Example being my partner at a class recently who'd been dancing less than 6 weeks, and the guy next to me who's partner had been dancing for 3 weeks. Don't get me wrong the woman I danced with was a good lead... just like last night's arm wrestler !!! But should these people really have been there. Is it not detrimental to there progress to go intermediate too soon as they've not perfected their beginners moves yet. I didn't do an intermediate class until I'd danced for 4 months, and even then I was terrified I muck it up.

Another interesting topic, which maybe should be on a separate thread
The 'guidelines' (and that's all they are) are that you should join the Intermediate class after a minimum of 6/8 weeks... The idea being that, by then, you have covered all the Beginners moves and should be able to dance to a basic standard and can start adding to your repertoire. In practise as you mention, it is often wise to wait a bit longer than 2 months, and actually pay attention to the Beginners class, focusing not just on learning the moves, but on how to lead them!
If someone joins the class too early, they will hold back progress slightly for everyone else, but hopefully, only for 2/3 minutes before they get moved on!

P.s the woman in question wasn't you Franck!!!! But next time can you pick a slower one??

Phew... thanks for that James, I did wonder
Great fun though and we must do it again to a slower track (as I thought it was going to be before it accelerated madly

Franck.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Franck
Great fun though and we must do it again to a slower track (as I thought it was going to be before it accelerated madly

Oh, come on you pair of wimps. It's only 180bpm. Stop moaning and get on with it

It was fun to watch though

Steve

[John S]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
When I've been dancing this week, i've ended up with a few women who plainly will not take a lead.........

So, to the dilemma. Is it P.C. to say something to your partner about this or would saying something be just rude??

I think it can depend on whether the lady respects your judgment / opinion, and as I would think most people you dance with in Scotland will know who you are, Mr Brummie, and what you have achieved, they at least ought to be prepared to listen to what you have to say. And, provided you can say it with a flash of your famous smile, I don't think anyone will be offended - but whether or not it will be effective I don't know.

Don't forget that with so many variations on basic moves there's always the possibility of the man's lead being misinterpreted - quite often in my case :sorry - and if it's only occasionally then it's funny, but if it happens a lot then both dancers should be aware of it and should want to do something about it - maybe you could just stand back with your hands on your hips and suggest (half-joking, wholly in earnest) that she just leads and you'll follow.

But just as other threads have stressed that a lady should have the right to refuse to dance with a man whose dance style she's not comfortable with, I guess it has to work the other way too - if she asks why then you can be polite and say that you don't think your dance styles gel, or if she persists you can be honest and tell her you have difficulty leading her - if a few men say the same thing maybe the message will get through. (If it's just me, she'll just assume I'm a wimp)

I didn't do an intermediate class until I'd danced for 4 months

Well, you're a pretty good advert for mastering the basics and not rushing into the intermediates, considering how far you've progressed so quickly since then!!

Similarly, I couldn't even WATCH the intermediate classes for the first couple of months, as it all seemed so far beyond what I was capable of doing. Still does, now I think of it ...........

I think it's a valid point, though, as I know a number of people who think because they have been attending classes for so many weeks/months that they are well past the need to master the beginner moves, and it's plainly not true!

Most teachers do make the point quite strongly that the beginners moves should be mastered for 6-8 weeks before trying the intermediates, but the Ceroc class/teaching method is based on encouragement and assuming some degree of self-awareness, so it's difficult to be brutal and say to some people they should go back to the basics. Eventually it sorts itself out, I think, and most people find a level they're comfortable with.

[Jon]

Originally posted by John S
a lady should have the right to refuse to dance with a man whose dance style she's not comfortable with, I guess it has to work the other way too - if she asks why then you can be polite and say that you don't think your dance styles gel, or if she persists you can be honest and tell her you have difficulty leading her - if a few men say the same thing maybe the message will get through.

Only trouble with this John is it's not part of the Ceroc Etiqute to refuse. And this could quite easily be taken the wrong way and end up with the lady not coming back to the venue or ceroc and could easily end up with the man having a red cheek from where shes slapped him

The only thing to do really is do avoidance tactics while dancing. If and when you start getting to know each other then you can make friendly suggestions.

[Gus]

Originally posted by John S
I think it can depend on whether the lady respects your judgment / opinion

It may possibly help is the Teachers re-inforce the axiom, "A good male dancer leads well, a good female dancer follows well". Failing that all offending women should have their foreheads branded with "Compulsive Leader" ... but then again they would need a fairly big forehead to fit that on

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Jon
Only trouble with this John is it's not part of the Ceroc Etiqute to refuse. And this could quite easily be taken the wrong way and end up with the lady not coming back to the venue or ceroc and could easily end up with the man having a red cheek from where shes slapped him

Sorry. Can't agree with this statement at all.

'It isn't part of the Ceroc Ettiquete to refuse'.

Maybe it should be. We all dance to enjoy ourselves and have fun. And while I would never turn down a beginner on the grounds that they aren't very good (they are a beginner, why should they be good?), people who aren't prepared to learn are a different matter.

Once someone puts themselves into an intermediate class, it's not unreasonable to assume that they know the basics! And hence, if it is an unpleasant experience dancing with them, because of their vice like grip, their piston like arms, their lack of the beat, or any other of the numerous reasons, then why should anyone spoil their own night by dancing with them?

One woman last night at the dance was definitely reasonably experienced, but caused me pain every time her hand gripped my fingers - and I'm very experienced in thumb avoidance tactics. She just wouldn't let go, didn't pick up on my moving my fingers out of the way, and when I tried to say in the middle of the dance to please give my fingers a chance, just ignored me, and still gripped on as tight. If she ever asks me to dance again, then I will feel totally justified in saying a polite no thank you.

People definitely need to dance with people better than them in order to progress. BUT, if they show no inclination to want to progress, then that's a different thing entirely.

After all, as I said, people pay their money to go there and have fun. Sure, that lady may not come back to the dance (as per your example), but if she's putting 10 men off by coming, maybe that's not such a bad thing?

Oh, and as for someone slapping my face for turning them down for a dance, I'm sure that the court where I put my assault case won't see that as a reasonable defence. That was a stupid thing to say. Sorry.

Steve

[Sandy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Oh, come on you pair of wimps. It's only 180bpm. Stop moaning and get on with it

It was fun to watch though

Steve

If this was about dance Franck and James had on Friday night I have to say it was fantastic to watch but oh my god it was fast! You must have had a few 'Red Bulls' before that one Franck!

Sandy

[michael]

This is a timely thread on a suject that is making me feel less excited about progress? as how does the one meant to lead improve if one who is meant to follow leads!!!

It cuts both ways as i hear ladies say Likewise: how can the lady follow if somone cant lead. Ignoring all beginners as they are just learning (me's an improver) the problem is not going to go away by itself is it? James has clearly said the female was an experienced dancer. So how should we tackle the problem?

Is the problem caused by the manner in which Ceroc teaches. Worth bearing in mind that there are probably weaknesses in all methods of teaching whatever you happen to teach. Ceroc has excelled in making it enjoyable and fun so far could it improve even more!

Or is this just something that pops up from time to time and is just one of the few things we have to put up with (aint nobody perfect we all have faults thing).

Without Ceroc we are all worse off so Ceroc PLC has to prosper and make money. Recently i mentioned to a female who had been dancing for several years that she was actually leading me, i smiled when i said it, she replied she was not leading but during an arm jive i suddenly stopped and she kept going. Me thinks it is better to say nothing now and leave that to Ceroc teachers to sort out.

There are solutions to most problems and curing the problem usually costs the management money. How much money would be lost and would there be a gain in the mid to long term or a continued loss from curing the problem.

Quote: The 'guidelines' (and that's all they are) are that you should join the Intermediate class after a minimum of 6/8 weeks... The idea being that, by then, you have covered all the Beginners moves and should be able to dance to a basic standard.

Short of going round the class (which i have said on other posts) and pointing out hand holds and ensuring INDIVIDUALLY that you are leading and following in an acceptable manner, we are going to continue to have these faults. As one of the keen ones who wants to learn i do appreciate there are others less bothered and more than happy to plod on whatever.

At Musselburgh you have people who are keen to take part in competitions and others to just be there to watch. I would guess that the vast majority would accept the teacher going round the class and pointing out above but what about the OTHERS WHO WERE NOT THERE. Unfortunately they i would think are the majority and the big question for Ceroc is how would the majority of them take to being told in a class the above.

As the Tramp (Steve) commented "People who dont want to learn are a different matter" But how many in the average class are in that category? I would love to see standards increase everywhere and be able to always dance with someone who is already a good dancer or who wants to improve. I have had to set my own method of guidance (or test if you like) for leading. I just grab a complete beginner and see how many of the beginner moves i can lead her into (that stops you from getting ahead of the game) but can Ceroc afford to adopt tougher standards. Ceroc has made it an easy dance that everyone can learn and it has done well out of this "advert for Ceroc" would it be too risky

And what about those who keep posting long posts like this!( ) Just one comment or PM and i will get the hint stop and still smile :

[Emma]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
~snip~ When I've been dancing this week, i've ended up with a few women who plainly will not take a lead. Now from what I can gather, they're experienced dancers, certainly not beginners, and to be perfectly honest... should know better. Is that a bit harsh??
~snip,snip~
So, to the dilemma. Is it P.C. to say something to your partner about this or would saying something be just rude??

I think it very much depends upon whether or not you know the person in question. If you don't, then I can't see how you can say anything without potentially upsetting that person or causing offence. I agree with Franck- you'd have to speak to the teacher and hope they could do something about it.

However is you *do* know the person, I think you could say something..as long as you take care to be positive as well. 'You're a lovely dancer but you'd be even better to dance with if..' is a lot more constructive than 'ouch, that hurts!!' - and considerably more likely to bring improvement.

While I'm moaning, I'll get this off my chest as well. Intermediate classes being done by people who've been dancing a very short time. Example being my partner at a class recently who'd been dancing less than 6 weeks, and the guy next to me who's partner had been dancing for 3 weeks. Don't get me wrong the woman I danced with was a good lead... just like last night's arm wrestler !!! But should these people really have been there. Is it not detrimental to there progress to go intermediate too soon as they've not perfected their beginners moves yet. I didn't do an intermediate class until I'd danced for 4 months, and even then I was terrified I muck it up.

I agree with you that this can be very frustrating, but I think most people quickly realise if they are out of their depth, and luckily the format of Ceroc means that one usually gets moved onto another partner very quickly.

Originally posted by The Tramp
We all dance to enjoy ourselves and have fun. And while I would never turn down a beginner on the grounds that they aren't very good (they are a beginner, why should they be good?), people who aren't prepared to learn are a different matter.

Whilst I understand the sentiment of this statement Steve, actually I think there is a very large proportion of people who go to Ceroc *just* to enjoy themselves and have fun, and that many of them really aren't that interested in learning once they have got to a point where they feel that they are competant enought to enjoy a dance with their friends. Sure, they do the intermediate class - but only because it is part of the evening, and not because they really want to improve their dancing. I think to turn someone down on the basis that they 'aren't prepared to learn' would be very mean-spirited (and I can't imagine you doing it, either!) If someone really is *that* bad that they are putting off other dancers, then again someone has to speak to them or to the teacher.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Emma
Whilst I understand the sentiment of this statement Steve, actually I think there is a very large proportion of people who go to Ceroc *just* to enjoy themselves and have fun, and that many of them really aren't that interested in learning once they have got to a point where they feel that they are competant enought to enjoy a dance with their friends. Sure, they do the intermediate class - but only because it is part of the evening, and not because they really want to improve their dancing. I think to turn someone down on the basis that they 'aren't prepared to learn' would be very mean-spirited (and I can't imagine you doing it, either!) If someone really is *that* bad that they are putting off other dancers, then again someone has to speak to them or to the teacher.

Sorry. I should have pointed out that I wasn't referring to all of the people who turn up once a week, are perfectly reasonable to dance with, and who aren't going to ever become stars. I was just referring to the ones who have a bad technique, which makes it unpleasant to dance with them, and who aren't interested in putting in the (small?) amount of work to get rid of that.

There are lots (the majority at any given night?) of people who are already competant dancers, and as you say, who have decided that they have reached their level, and who are perfectly pleasant to dance with.

I should also say that this applies in both directions, not just from a male perspective.

Steve

[bigdjiver]

I do not often get asked to dance. Hopefully that is because I am very rarely hanging about off the dancefloor.

There are some ladies who come to my regular venue who cannot dance, and do not attract me, or seemingly anybody else, in any way. They do not ask people to dance. We could just ignore them, but I, and some others ask them to dance. I do not view this as charity, but as helping to build a sense of community, in which I can feel comfortable.

I have been known, very occasionally, to turn down a request for a third dance in an evening, telling them simply that there are other ladies here that I want to have a dance with, because they are a beginner I want to show the ropes, a lady with whom I am practising special moves, or a visitor that I do not often get the chance to dance with. I only say that if it is true.

Ceroc is fun, and I want it to be fun for everybody.

[Jon]

Originally posted by TheTramp
was just referring to the ones who have a bad technique, which makes it unpleasant to dance with them, and who aren't interested in putting in the (small?) amount of work to get rid of that.

Sorry Steve but I have to disagree with this. Just because you might have trouble dancing with someone doesn't mean someone else will. I've seen ladies dancing who look great and then I've had a first dance with them and I thought the dance was terrible. But after a number of dances both our styles changed and I now have a few ladies that I love dancing with. To date I have not met a lady that doesnt want to improve her dancing but sometimes as a guy leading I have to make her comfortable with my basic moves first before moving on to the harder things. Some people are simply nervous around new people especially with people more experienced than them and might cling on abit for security or have stiffer arms more than usual.

And as Emma says if there really are people out there that a number of people have trouble dancing with then it's time to tell the teacher.

Oh, and when I said someone might slap your face, I didnt mean it for turning them down for a dance, but rather by trying to tell them what they are doing wrong and how to improve might be taken the wrong way if you worded it wrong.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Jon
Sorry Steve but I have to disagree with this. Just because you might have trouble dancing with someone doesn't mean someone else will.

Been there .. I danced with a girl at Le Jive championships, way back. I commented afterwards that she danced like a brick. On reviewing the video I saw her dancing with others, and she looked fine. I have no idea what went wrong.

[Jive Brummie]

I tend to agree with everything you've all said.... if that's possible. But, I s'pose what I'm after really is for people to say, that yes, it's ok to turn a lady down for a dance if you know it's going to be painful or plainly un-enjoyable??

Like some of you, I've danced with people who I've thought I'd have a great dance with then when it's come to the crunch, it's turned out to be complete pants!! And so I've persevered and danced with them a few times and, yes, style's have adapted to accomodate each other. However the lady I danced with in reference to this thread had a style, thankfully, all her own. And to be honest I would never want to adapt to her style unless more women wanted me to wrestle with them aswell as bounce my arms on every half beat like a deranged boxing kangaroo. This sounds a bit harsh, but she did pretty much ruin my night.

A lot of guy's work hard on getting a good style, good lead, good moves and all the rest of it but when you dance with someone that has absolutely no idea what they're doing then I find it hard not to ask myself what is the point. Fortunately i have a fantastic dance partner who makes all the hard work worth all the effort....... Thankyou FC.....!

x

[bigdjiver]

If pain is the problem I suppose you could feign injury to the left arm. "I dunno, something just went it's not your fault..." Then take care only to use the right arm in her locality.

Or one could practise doing the basket so partner steps on your right foot on the step back. "It's just the way you caught it, It'll be alright in a minute".

Talk about your operation/girlfriend/wife, or what great dancers x,y,z are.

Are there pollute your breathe pills? Perspirant? Have we hands?

None of these have been tried by me, but now I am wondering if they have been tried on me.

[TheTramp]

Or. You could just say 'no thank you'.

Steve

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
This is probably a harsh title for a thread but I'm interested in peoples opinion on the subject and need your advice...

Very recently I danced with a lady, who, besides being very nice, would have been better off arm wrestling than dancing. Now I go to the gym and work out and all that good stuff, but she had me coming off the dance flloor aching. And I have to be honest, although I didn't do this, half way through the dance I felt like walking off.

So, to the dilemma. Is it P.C. to say something to your partner about this or would saying something be just rude?? I didn't say anything at the time. Instead I aired my displeasure to the missus, who soon got bored with my inane ranting... so I shut up

For either men or women - I think a piece of good advice is. if it feels uncomfortable - please tell the person concerned for their own benefit but in a nice way It goes back to "Love your neighour as you love yourself" in other words treat others as you would wish to be treated.

One of the things I appreciated when I was learning intermediates is dancers telling me what needed to be done to get better. I admit that I did not find ceroc naturally easy and it took a long time may be two years before improvements came along that were significant. I would much rather have good dancers tell me and help me rather than them clearing off.

One other useful piece of advice I would give, is if you are with someone who does have a vice like grip or ladies if he is too forceful, is offer to go to the side for the rest of the record and show them why it's incorrect.

[Chris]

I was very impressed with Franck's reply - he obviously took notes when doing leadship classes at school.

It's good IMO if the advice comes from the taxi dancer on duty and/or (especially in the case of a dancer who's been doing intermediate classes for a while) the teacher. Not only are they in an official position but they might be more sensitive (than someone who's not working) to when that person is an a receptive mood. (Don't a lot of us have nights or times when we want to learn and improve and other nights when we just need to chill out, forget our worries and get on with it . . .?)

Playing devil's advocate for the girls though . . . some will instinctively vary their 'following' style for different partners, just as we guys vary our lead! So she might have a vice-like grip with one person which totally and mysteriously disappears when she dances with the teacher! It could be just due to nerves, or not being able to let go (metaphorically as well as literally!) enough to trust a particular person and relax with them, or not recognising their style, or even being hampered by thoughts they have about who that person is off the dance floor. Not the most common scenarios perhaps, but possible, and they maybe remind us guys sometimes to view it as a challenge when we get a 'difficult' follower, and to think of ways of varying our own lead, going with her flow, changing our grip etc etc etc.

It's good to think of ways of improving the situation, but I'm sure what a lot of guys (and girls!) would like is practical ways of refusing a dance politely.
{end serious theoretical mode}

My general rule is generally never to refuse a first dance, but not feel obliged to accept if I'm asked again by the same person that evening (or still have a painful experience from last time I danced with them - it can take a week or so for the muscles to recover in some cases!).

Here's a couple of one liners (girls or guys):
"I think I'm going to sit this one out"
(doesn't bar you from accepting a dance from someone else - you only said you "think" you're going to sit it out)
"Thank you for asking me but there's a lot of people here and I'd like to try and circulate as much as possible"
(as long as you've already had one dance with them)
{end 'Jim'll Fix It' mode}

I think it's also ok (girls or guys) to accept a dance but ask with a smile, "can you be gentle with me please?" It focusses on gentle lead/follow and also communicates your concern!
{end wimp mode!}

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by michael

It cuts both ways as i hear ladies say Likewise: how can the lady follow if somone cant lead.

Everyone can lead, some just do it very badly -- occasionaly this leads to followers who tend to anticipate everything due to them dancing with a leader whose lead is nearly non-existent. Its a lead dance so really the follower should wait for a lead - its never as clear cut as that though is it! My lead varies with the music, my mood and the partner and ive witnesed such changeable behaviour in followers too. Consistency has to come mainly from the lead though i think, and its an area i personally really need to improve in.

The overriding factor to remember is that you're supposed to be dancing, so unless youre dancing with a robot to the same music - each dance is different...and i reserve the right to mess up 80% of my dances and apologise for it .

Originally posted by michael

Is the problem caused by the manner in which Ceroc teaches.

Yes. For beginners at least. All followers are taught to just do a move during a class so in effect the lead is shared - if the guy forgets what he is doing the follower may continue the move anyway. Some followers seem to carry this over to freestyle and 'do the move' because they think they recognise it, the may be wrong and they have just become the leaders if they are wrong.
but...I cant think of a better way to get people dancing very quickly than the Ceroc method. Normally once people know the basics well enough they do tend to follow the move as by this time it comes naturally. Repetition leads to learning after all.

However, this is clearly no black and white scenario; even the best followers will occasionally anticipate, for whatever reason, but good dancers can handle unexpected changes in the dance just as easily as they can handle changes in the music - so the rest of us won't notice. And outside of a competition, why does it matter if people notice a few mistakes.

Originally posted by michael
she replied she was not leading but during an arm jive i suddenly stopped and she kept going.

then she isnt leading, you lead the move...she continued it and will continue it for ever until you lead something else .

Originally posted by michael

And what about those who keep posting long posts like this!( )

no Michael don't stop posting