View Poll Results: Is learning Modern Jive still as easy as it was 10 years ago?

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  • It is still as easy to learn MJ as it was 10 years ago

    8 88.89%
  • It is now harder to learn MJ

    1 11.11%
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Thread: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

  1. #1
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    Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    When I first learn Modern Jive, all I had to think about was doing the moves and being in time, leading the girl and putting some of my own styling in, whilst coping with whatever styling the girl put in.

    With all the talk of "musicality" "slots or circles" and other buzz words being banded about on the forum, is Modern Jive becoming a harder dance to learn?

    Looking back over past champs videos and also thinking of what dancers were seen as "advanced" more than 10 years ago, I consider the dance has changed somewhat.

    One example (for you oldies) was watching Simon De Lisle dance back in 1994, and thinking "I wanna dance like him".
    Looking at footage of him winning a UK champ over 10 years ago, his dancing is very precise, but there is no space for the girl to "do her thing" and musicality is restricted to "hitting the beats" - given today's focus on musicality etc. he probably would not win a modern champ IMHO.
    (no disrespect to Simon, as I have been friends with him for a long time and I respect him - just using it as an example a few people might be able to relate to)

    Another "well respected" advanced dancer and teacher in Australia, had a few years break - his comments on coming back were - the dance has changed a lot - he was used to "standard lead and follow" and had to "re-learn" a more "open" dance where the girl also contributed and the music was far more important and varied.


    So I guess the thing I am thinking is.... It might be harder today to learn MJ compared to 10 years ago.... or it might be just as easy, to learn, but there will always be "experts" telling us "there is more to it at the higher levels - don't you know..."

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    If MJ is changing then it's alive, like modern language.
    That must be good, both for the dance and it's popularity.

    Musical interpretation and style does not make the dancing any more difficult to learn.
    But, that does give much more scope for continuous self improvement and/or development.

  3. #3
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    Musical interpretation and style does not make the dancing any more difficult to learn.
    Well, I am thinking, there is 2 extra things to learn, so maybe it has become more difficult.

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    When I first learn Modern Jive, all I had to think about was doing the moves and being in time, leading the girl and putting some of my own styling in, whilst coping with whatever styling the girl put in...
    When I learned MJ all I had to think about was being able to lead a few moves, and that was a challenge. Hopefully I was in time.

    ... With all the talk of "musicality" "slots or circles" and other buzz words being banded about on the forum, is Modern Jive becoming a harder dance to learn?
    Thankfully the beginner Ceroc classes I attend still scarcely mention these things, they still cater for the "enjoy a knees up" brigade. The floor is still very close to where the floor used to be.

    In the wider scene the dance has become impossible to learn, because the freeing of the follower to play has not come with rules. The lead just does their best as circumstances occur.

  5. #5
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    I think that's a very good observation Martin. Years ago when I first learnt MJ there weren't the plethora of workshops around to build on the basics that I had learnt - although the likes of Andy and Rena were a little more adventurous in what they taught when I was a beginner. (I was doing baby aerials as a beginner - I thought 'this is fun').

    I think for a beginner these days nothing much has changed except perhaps a little more emphasis on very basic lead and follow technique taught by some teachers, which I think does help beginners to get more out of their early dancing experience. However, as there are so many workshops to chose from these days, it does mean that there is plenty of stuff out there to build on, which I think has contributed to the continual change and diversity of MJ which I just wish was around 10 or more years ago.

    I am grateful to Richard Oliver and Val Forsey (who was teacher in training at that point) whose workshop Tony and I attended. I thought 'thank god, there is more than just moves!' I think you just need to point people in the right direction.

    M

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    I think it has become easier for a beginner to learn Modern Jive over the last 10 years. I started MJ in Brighton in early 1997. I found the dance lacked structure and found this confusing. When I asked the teacher about footwork I was told, it doesn't matter, that it all happens above the waist. But when I watched the good dancers there was definitely something going on with the feet that seemed to fit a pattern: especially for the ladies - who seemed to have two footwork variants. One of the reasons I started travelling to other venues was to find teachers who could explain it all to me.

    Nowadays, at least at my classes, I teach basic footwork to beginners. I don't go on about it much in the beginners lessons as I don't want people to watch their feet or think too hard about them. A line like "ladies, when the guy presses into your right hand to start you dancing, step back on the right foot and then step on every beat" seem to be enough to do the job.

    What I think has become more complex. And what Martin has really observed, is that the dance, as you progress through it, has become more complex and has more depth than it had in 1987. There's more to learn. I suppose this could be seen as meaning that you spend longer as a "beginner". After all, if there's only 20 moves and no formal footwork you would know it all within 3 months. Now that people are teaching footwork and footwork variations, are listening to the music and now that there's many, many more moves you spend much longer as a learner - in my case, I'm still learning.

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    What I think has become more complex. And what Martin has really observed, is that the dance, as you progress through it, has become more complex and has more depth than it had in 1987. There's more to learn. I suppose this could be seen as meaning that you spend longer as a "beginner". After all, if there's only 20 moves and no formal footwork you would know it all within 3 months. Now that people are teaching footwork and footwork variations, are listening to the music and now that there's many, many more moves you spend much longer as a learner
    I think you are summing up an improver moving on through intermediate.
    Yes, there is lots of room for development to increase the pleasurable experience for both parties.
    The learning part as applied to beginners and early improvers is no more difficult.

  8. #8
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    - in my case, I'm still learning.
    Andy, we never stop learning. In any walk of life in whatever we do.

    Although there is the expression 'some people just never learn'

    M

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    Although there is the expression 'some people just never learn'

    M
    I keep learning this lesson

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    ...The learning part as applied to beginners and early improvers is no more difficult.
    True in my regular Ceroc venue, but I think that varies from class to class. The problem for beginners now is that the percentage of newcomers has decreased and the skill set of the more advance has greatly improved so the "get by" standard has improved.

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    I think it's harder to learn ceroc today than it was when I started for the simple reason that the beginner's classes have become easier. That's not as paradoxical as it might first sound. The classes have become easier by teaching less. If less it taught, less it learnt. If you still have to learn the same amount to be competent, then it's harder to learn to that level of competence when less it learnt.

    Those things you mention - musicality, floorcraft and so on - have always been important. But they were either taught as a part of the class or not taught at all and only learnt by accident. By pushing all of that stuff into workshops, it is now taught, but it is taught less in classes. Given that a large number of ceroc dancers don't go to workshops, this means these things are not taught to them at all.

    It's also worth noting that ceroc down-under is very different from ceroc in the UK. And one of the biggest differences is the role the woman (or follow) plays. A lot of the moves I learnt in NZ require the follow to know their part to follow the lead properly. And there is a far higher expectation that the follow will take control of the dance at stages. In Auckland, and I suspect in Australia, this is largely because of a number of very strong-willed women involved in setting up and running ceroc there.

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    IMO It's become easier.

    Whether or not you think the teaching has improved in ten years (depends on individuals of course, but I would say marginally overall), the peripherals, for example, the role played by Taxis has vastly improved.

    Whether it has become harder to become 'good' or even 'competant'' at MJ is a completely different question.

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    IMO It's become easier.

    Whether or not you think the teaching has improved in ten years (depends on individuals of course, but I would say marginally overall), the peripherals, for example, the role played by Taxis has vastly improved.
    Ten years ago the beginners were left to watch the intermediate lesson. The beginners refresher or consolidation lesson is a great innovation and really does make it easier for beginners - and improve the retention rate, which is nice

  14. #14
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    I once heard a theory, it is not in teacher’s interest to make it too easy, as once we have leant all the moves we might stop coming to classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    'some people just never learn'
    But we have a lot of fun trying

  15. #15
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    IMO It's become easier.

    Whether or not you think the teaching has improved in ten years (depends on individuals of course, but I would say marginally overall), the peripherals, for example, the role played by Taxis has vastly improved.

    Whether it has become harder to become 'good' or even 'competant'' at MJ is a completely different question.

    Good post as for the taxis our hands are being tied by the new rules which were bought out ie we now do a practice session instead of a review class
    Having said that the moves as we have discussed at length on here before have been cut from four to three per week and that makes the classes a lot easier although obviously it now takes more weeks to learn them

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by philsmove View Post
    I once heard a theory
    ...a kid is dreaming, and we're all stuck inside his wacky broadway nightmare...


    er..seems appropriate somehow

  17. #17
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Good post as for the taxis our hands are being tied by the new rules which were bought out ie we now do a practice session instead of a review class
    That's interesting (I didn't even know there were rules, but then why should I? ). So what's the difference between a review and a practice?

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    So what's the difference between a review and a practice?
    The latter is just a tune up and jam session, and the former is the full rhythm and blues concert.

  19. #19
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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    That's interesting (I didn't even know there were rules, but then why should I? ).
    To my understanding, the Taxis aren't allowed to do anything that smacks of 'teaching'. (Insurance issues, apparently). I'm not totally sure what they are allowed to do now, besides stand around looking pretty.

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    Re: Has it become harder to learn Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    To my understanding, the Taxis aren't allowed to do anything that smacks of 'teaching'. (Insurance issues, apparently). I'm not totally sure what they are allowed to do now, besides stand around looking pretty.
    So my first thought was, they can at least direct traffic in the beginners class and dance with the beginners after the class...

    But then, even by dancing with the beginners, you would want to help beginners out if they were struggling - which could be seen as teaching..

    I guess one answer would be to train taxi dancers to teach and therfore have them covered to teach? Or is it more complex with the insurance issue?

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