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Thread: Does your leader confuse you?

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Crazy View Post
    For example a signal for a neck brake would be to hold your hand up as if you were flagging down traffic.
    This signal is not needed and rarely used outside of a class as far as I've noticed. Same goes for a manspin, a bit of compression on the followers hand is enough to stop them moving forward into you as you spin, in this case though the spare hand will look better if you do something with it, so it ends up looking like a signal anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Lots of things are actually signals - the flat palm for instance in the push-spin, the placing of the LH over the follow's wrist in the lady spin, putting the RH palm upwards at the start of the catapult, even lifting the hand above the follows head for a return - I'm sure if we put our minds to it we could come up with a comprehensive list.
    None of those things are signals, they are part of the lead. Reminds me of Biology Class at school where you had to describe the actions you take to make a cup of coffee*. Ultimately we would forget lots of bits and have to add "lift kettle","tilt kettle over cup"... all the intricacies - thats what your comprehensive list would look like i think.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    A signal is where there is no direct relationship between the initial movement of the leader, and the eventual movement of the follower.
    Thats what I thought too (although this feels like agreeing with Ghandi on a human rights issue ).

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Offering the other hand and expecting the lady to take it with her spare hand is a signal, but is almost universally recognised.
    And if there is, for example, a credit card with a healthy limit in that hand, its universally taken

    Raising the hand usually causes arguments. My view is that it is only a lead for the follower to raise her hand. However I know a lot of people who say it is also an invitation to turn.
    I didn't know that, but I have been surprised several times at what a follower has done in response to a movement I made - I don't assume that people I haven't danced with know any signals I could use, so I don't use them, but some followers still react to the "signal" I haven't made (though it IS rare, i do try not to flail). Seems a strange assumption to me, and the really good followers never do this (unless I'm particularly unclear and they are forced to make that assumption, and thats entirely my fault ).



    *it was as an analogy with body movement e.g. what does "moving your arm" entail biologically - i enjoyed biology, never did physics to exam level though

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    And how does a complete beginner have a hope of knowing the signal?
    Because they will have just done it in a class.

    With complete beginners I mostly dance the moves they've been taught in class, with perhaps a few other easy-to-follow moves if I think they're likely to be able to cope with them.

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    Cool Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I try to avoid signals except when dancing with a complete beginner. I try to lead my partner rather than telegraph what I'm about to do next. After all, signals are just an invitation for the follower to back-lead.

    As long as I'm dancing with someone who is at least reasonably competent at following, the lack of signals is never a problem and doesn't cause confusion.
    Although I would have stopped a little shorter than that by saying: Signals are just an invitation.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    the most confusing thing I find, Is when a guy inadvertently leads something with his body but then does something else with his hand

    He may not even be aware that he's leading anything but as you get more experienced, you rely less and less on actual hand movements and more and more on body alignment and pre leads.

    So when someone 'prep's' me for a turn, then doesn't follow through with it, its very confusing indeed
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    the most confusing thing I find, Is when a guy inadvertently leads something with his body but then does something else with his hand

    He may not even be aware that he's leading anything but as you get more experienced, you rely less and less on actual hand movements and more and more on body alignment and pre leads.

    So when someone 'prep's' me for a turn, then doesn't follow through with it, its very confusing indeed


    Plus the leads who in trying to keep their spare hand out of the way put it somewhere where it looks like an invitation to take hold of it.

    I have had some leads who then really quickly remove it when they realise I'm about to make a connection there, and others who look at me with a rather stunned look on their face as if to say, "What did you go and do that for? Now I have No Idea what to do!"

    On the other hand, some are then very creative and come out smiling.

    Sadly they are rare.

    All very confusing for both of us!

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    the most confusing thing I find, Is when a guy inadvertently leads something with his body but then does something else with his hand

    He may not even be aware that he's leading anything but as you get more experienced, you rely less and less on actual hand movements and more and more on body alignment and pre leads.

    So when someone 'prep's' me for a turn, then doesn't follow through with it, its very confusing indeed
    I hope I don't do that.
    How do I find out?
    Feedback from my partners is very rare.

  7. #27
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessiemonster View Post

    and others who look at me with a rather stunned look on their face as if to say, "What did you go and do that for?
    It makes you want to say, because "you 'led' it"

    but as you say, it can be good fun if the guy goes with the flow.

    I've often had guys say..... Wow, that was good now, how did 'I' do that again! ???
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I hope I don't do that.
    How do I find out?
    If someone doesn't react how you wanted them to, and/or looks confused, ask them why
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    If someone doesn't react how you wanted them to, and/or looks (annoyed), ask them why
    after the slap on the face or the burst lip, you want me to ask "why"

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Because they will have just done it in a class.

    With complete beginners I mostly dance the moves they've been taught in class, with perhaps a few other easy-to-follow moves if I think they're likely to be able to cope with them.
    Ah, that's the difference... I find that avoiding the moves from the class often helps to avoid anticipation (and saves having to explain the whole lead-follow concept). I only fall back on moves from the class if it's going really badly!

    Sean

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    I had an unusual experience with a third night beginner last night.
    We danced before the class started and she followed wonderfully.
    We did the class and she coped well.
    We danced the three move routine right at the end of the class and she was all over the place. Unable to follow and getting the turns/returns in the wrong direction.
    Joked about it a bit and asked if I could go back to freestyle. "yes" and she was again able to follow.

    Seems as though knowing the moves and thinking about what came next was confusing her, but when the outcome was unknown her "whole thought processing" was dedicated to FOLLOW and not try to anticipate.

    It's the worst case of anticipation causing confusion I've ever witnessed.

    But, she is superb to dance with in freestyle, as she confirmed later in the evening.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    I dunno if this is counts as off topic but I'm reminded of a dance I had a few weeks back at Chelmsford.

    There was this bloke on the dance floor and every single dance he had, he stopped mid dance to give instruction to his follower on how to do some fancy foot work. Actually it wasn't that fancy at all and I would say very easy to lead...or guide.

    I asked someone who he was and I was told he taught MJ for 20 years.

    Anyway...me being me I asked him to dance hoping he'd do the same to me.

    Sure enough, he stopped mid dance and started to try and talk me through a cross over type step. The conversation went like this...

    DT "DON'T instruct me, lead me"

    Numpty "But I don't know how to lead this move"

    DT "Don't do it then...if you can't lead this move, do ones that you can lead"

    The look on his face. I swear it took him a good 20 seconds to comprehend what I had just said to him. Obviously no one has ever actually pulled him up on such poor dancing technique's before.

    We spent the remainder of the dance doing simple moves with no eye contact. I watched him during the rest of the evening and he still continued to talk through half of the steps he was doing.

    What irritates me is that some, or maybe even most followers would see him as an experienced dancer and think that what he does is the norm.

    Tw@t.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Tw@t.
    if you can't lead it, why do it! the middle of a dance is hardly the time to have an ad-hoc class

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Tw@t.
    He's a man.
    Do you expect him to be capable of changing?

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    if you can't lead it, why do it! the middle of a dance is hardly the time to have an ad-hoc class
    Exactly..! Thing is he did it every single woman he danced with. The sad thing is that he was never short of women asking him. God knows why, I mean considering he was supposed to be a teacher, he had no musicality, no style, couldn't lead and no eye contract.

    Actually...sounds like your standard MJ teacher.

    The generosity of women eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    He's a man.
    Do you expect him to be capable of changing?
    Well...my Gav is a man, well he was the last time I looked and he always listens to advice about his dancing and has improved dramatically. He's my favourite lead now.

    I suspect the Tw@t from Chelmsford thought I was just being difficult and that I didn't really know what I was talking about. He'll never change...why should he when all the stupid girlies in Chelmsford allow him to dance like a Numpty.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    .......... all the stupid girlies in Chelmsford allow him to dance like a Numpty.
    were they blonde as well?

  17. #37
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    For the neckbreak, a signal shouldn't be needed if you're doing it right, but I confess I probably have the bad habit of slipping one in from time to time. My preference is to start from R-R and then not only is the signal not needed, but it's not even possible to do it by accident.
    Can I just say that the Ceroc Neckbreak signal still throws me completely (even after all these years). I was used to a different signal (the "Poised Cobra" position ) in my formative years. When I see the "Policeman" signal - I automatically think that the leader wants me to "STOP"!

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    None of those things are signals, they are part of the lead. Reminds me of Biology Class at school where you had to describe the actions you take to make a cup of coffee*. Ultimately we would forget lots of bits and have to add "lift kettle","tilt kettle over cup"... all the intricacies - thats what your comprehensive list would look like i think.
    Bollards. Of course they are signals. What on earth is a lead if it does not signal something to the follower with the expectation that they'll be doing something as a result.

    Nothing like a kettle either so the analogy is lost on me - the last time I checked no matter how well I led the kettle it would not simply take actions of its own accord to help me get it to the boil.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Bollards. Of course they are signals. What on earth is a lead if it does not signal something to the follower with the expectation that they'll be doing something as a result.
    You're using a different definition of signal to everyone else, moving backwards whilst holding someones hand tends to make them follow you but it is not a signal. This thread is about actual signals that rely on the follower knowing or guessing what they are.


    Nothing like a kettle either so the analogy is lost on me - the last time I checked no matter how well I led the kettle it would not simply take actions of its own accord to help me get it to the boil.
    It wasn't an analogy

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You're using a different definition of signal to everyone else, moving backwards whilst holding someones hand tends to make them follow you but it is not a signal. This thread is about actual signals that rely on the follower knowing or guessing what they are.
    I would think that most signals are visual - if I can follow a movement with my eyes closed its not likely to have many signals (only exception being a 'tap' perhaps).

    The other definition is the difference between a signal and a visual lead. Is an offered hand behind the back for a pretzel a signal or a visual lead?

    We've talked about this a lot before I know, but I guess there is mileage in discussing again...

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