Does your leader confuse you?

[Jive Crazy]

Ceroc and other modern jive dances tend to by and large have pre-defined signals to aid the follower in understand the intention of the leader. If these signals are not present then or unclear does this create confusion or does it depend upon how strong a leader a person is?

Steve R

[MartinHarper]

I spend most of my time following in a state of blissful confusion.
The presence or absence of pre-defined signals doesn't change this.

[David Franklin]

Ceroc and other modern jive dances tend to by and large have pre-defined signals to aid the follower in understand the intention of the leader.

What signals did you have in mind?

[tsh]

I don't use signals, and I only confuse people if I want to. I think I have quite a light lead, but it seems to be understood by lots of followers. What was the question again?

[StokeBloke]

Blatant signals are the work of Lucifer himself - damn his eyes !!!

[Jive Crazy]

I agree no blatant signals as that doesn't look clever or flow as smoothly.

[David Franklin]

I agree no blatant signals as that doesn't look clever or flow as smoothly.

I have to be honest, I've absolutely no idea what you mean by "signal" at this point.

[Jive Crazy]

For example a signal for a neck brake would be to hold your hand up as if you were flagging down traffic.

[gebandemuishond]

I have to be honest, I've absolutely no idea what you mean by "signal" at this point.

I'm guessing it's the "I'm going to do a neck-break and to help you prepare for it I'm going to raise my palm and do my best impersonation of a policeman controlling traffic" type of signal.

Dan

[Caro]

For example a signal for a neck brake would be to hold your hand up as if you were flagging down traffic.

I'm guessing it's the "I'm going to do a neck-break and to help you prepare for it I'm going to raise my palm and do my best impersonation of a policeman controlling traffic" type of signal.

spooky !

To answer the question: only when he doesn't know what he's doing and where he wants me to go.

You're in good shape for the forum best thread award there, JC

[David Franklin]

I'm guessing it's the "I'm going to do a neck-break and to help you prepare for it I'm going to raise my palm and do my best impersonation of a policeman controlling traffic" type of signal.

Good guess.

But as that's also just about the only example I can think of, perhaps not that good a guess.

For the neckbreak, a signal shouldn't be needed if you're doing it right, but I confess I probably have the bad habit of slipping one in from time to time. My preference is to start from R-R and then not only is the signal not needed, but it's not even possible to do it by accident.

I'm still curious what other signals JC had in mind.

[Caro]

I'm still curious what other signals JC had in mind.

there's a few around, like for the man spin (same kind as neck breck, just lower), and some that involve baby aerials like tap on the shoulder and stuff (or so I was told when I was shown, a long time ago)

I suppose the hand waving behind the back for pretzely kinda moves could be called signals too..

[David Franklin]

there's a few around, like for the man spin (same kind as neck breck, just lower)

I tend to see that as more a prep for the spin than anything else, but I take the point. What do you (as a follower) make of it? Are you confused if it's absent?

and some that involve baby aerials like tap on the shoulder and stuff (or so I was told when I was shown, a long time ago)

Pretty out of vogue now, I think, except between consenting couples in the privacy of their homes.

I suppose the hand waving behind the back for pretzely kinda moves could be called signals too..

That's the only one I think's in anything like common use, but on the other hand, it's hardly "prearranged".

[NZ Monkey]

I'm still curious what other signals JC had in mind.

Off the top of my head I’d say ones like:

Whurlitzer – presenting your hand palm forward for your partner to press against before throwing her out to your side.
Hatchback – Pressing the palm of your hand to your chest so your partner can’t grab hold thinking it’s a yo-yo*.
Open Neck Break – Essentially a Closed Neckbreak (just called the Neckbreak usually) where the woman continues travelling behind the man. Done by offering a straight arm rather than one bent around the ladies neck.

Those are the simple moves. I’ve also been taught a seducer where the follower slides under the supporting arm to exit that was signaled by the way the man removed his higher hand, and I’ve also been shown a tap to the chest has been used to lead into a relatively complex pattern I can barely remember once.

For what it’s worth though with better leading and following skills none of these moves are unleadable without signals and in some cases (like the hatchback) it’s debatable as to what is a signal and what is just leading properly.

*Although I’ve lost count of the number of followers I’ve danced with who find a way to hold on regardless…..

[Caro]

I tend to see that as more a prep for the spin than anything else, but I take the point. What do you (as a follower) make of it? Are you confused if it's absent?

as a follow it's totally useless to me, unless the leader is standing still and in the way (i.e. not actually leading). I take the point that it could be a useful prep, if it was taught as such, i.e. with a slight rotation of the upper body (which I have never seen, but I'll admit that I haven't been in a ceroc class in a long time).

That's the only one I think's in anything like common use, but on the other hand, it's hardly "prearranged".

I also forgot the very famous *COLUMBIAN!!!!* signal

[Agente Secreto]

there's a few around, like for the man spin (same kind as neck breck, just lower), and some that involve baby aerials like tap on the shoulder and stuff (or so I was told when I was shown, a long time ago)

I suppose the hand waving behind the back for pretzely kinda moves could be called signals too..

Lots of things are actually signals - the flat palm for instance in the push-spin, the placing of the LH over the follow's wrist in the lady spin, putting the RH palm upwards at the start of the catapult, even lifting the hand above the follows head for a return - I'm sure if we put our minds to it we could come up with a comprehensive list.

As to tsh's description of a light lead - it can be as light as you want as long as you maintain connection and the lead is unambiguous. Otherwise some dancers are likely to struggle, although good follows will always adjust and interpret poor leads, just as they did when I was learning and when I have my off nights

[NZ Monkey]

Lots of things are actually signals - the flat palm for instance in the push-spin, the placing of the LH over the follow's wrist in the lady spin, putting the RH palm upwards at the start of the catapult, even lifting the hand above the follows head for a return - I'm sure if we put our minds to it we could come up with a comprehensive list.

Some of this is really nothing more than the mechanics involved in the move. If the follower hand never been taught to look for any signals she’d most likely still follow the move.

As to tsh's description of a light lead - it can be as light as you want as long as you maintain connection and the lead is unambiguous. Otherwise some dancers are likely to struggle, although good follows will always adjust and interpret poor leads, just as they did when I was learning and when I have my off nights

The heaviness of the lead is important. If you lead too lightly some partners will barely feel it. If you lead very heavily others will feel like you’re ripping their arms off.

There is at least one lady who has won advanced competitions here that makes me feel like I’m a human breakpad when I dance with her. A light lead will not even be felt often. I don’t find it particularly pleasant, but she rarely suffers from a lack of dance partners.

[DavidB]

A signal is where there is no direct relationship between the initial movement of the leader, and the eventual movement of the follower. It is a learnt response. (Don't however mention Russian physiologists and experiments with 4-legged animals if you ever expect to be asked for a dance in future.)

You can argue that almost everything is a signal. Moving her hand is only a lead for her to move her hand. There are only 2 ways to guarantee to move the rest of her - physically lift her up and carry her, or place new shoes/sparkly bits/chocolate at the destination. (This is not classed as a signal, as the cause of the movement is genetic and not learnt.)

If however the lady knows to follow your hand, you have more freedom. You can then class any horizontal movement of this hand as a lead, not a signal. Taking is a stage further, you can class any preparation for this hand movement (such as changing the grip) as part of the lead, and not a signal.

Offering the other hand and expecting the lady to take it with her spare hand is a signal, but is almost universally recognised.

Raising the hand usually causes arguments. My view is that it is only a lead for the follower to raise her hand. However I know a lot of people who say it is also an invitation to turn.

[Baruch]

Ceroc and other modern jive dances tend to by and large have pre-defined signals to aid the follower in understand the intention of the leader. If these signals are not present then or unclear does this create confusion or does it depend upon how strong a leader a person is?

I try to avoid signals except when dancing with a complete beginner. I try to lead my partner rather than telegraph what I'm about to do next. After all, signals are just an invitation for the follower to back-lead.

As long as I'm dancing with someone who is at least reasonably competent at following, the lack of signals is never a problem and doesn't cause confusion.

[tsh]

I try to avoid signals except when dancing with a complete beginner.

And how does a complete beginner have a hope of knowing the signal?

Take the arm-jive swizzle as an example. Complete first time dancer has a good chance of following this when I lead it, an 8 week ceroc dancer is likely to let go, and assume it is a push-spin. In neither case is there a signal which would help (other than maybe blindfolding the follower, because not seeing tends to make them more attentive).

Actually, I think the question was 'will the forum re-assure me that some moves are harder to lead in a non-choreographed dance'. In lindy, there will be a signal for the hand-to-hand cha-cha move, being a sideways rock-step - this says we're going sideways, not in and out - and that is a fairly alien concept in jive, so it's going to be harder to lead into.