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Thread: Does your leader confuse you?

  1. #41
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    The other thing about signals is they often get confused for preps.

    You can make a pretty good argument that the Manspin, Pretzel and Neck Break 'signals' are actually preps. Certainly if you watch more experienced dancers these are often toned down and/or delayed and used as preps, not signals.

    Preps are good, ask any WCS'er

    Tap on the shoulder to start a baby aerial, defo a signal.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I would think that most signals are visual - if I can follow a movement with my eyes closed its not likely to have many signals (only exception being a 'tap' perhaps).

    The other definition is the difference between a signal and a visual lead. Is an offered hand behind the back for a pretzel a signal or a visual lead?

    We've talked about this a lot before I know, but I guess there is mileage in discussing again...
    Without sight, a follower will still move to the leads left hand side back to back as it were but it would have to be a false preztel as the follower doesn't know about the offered hand.

    Therefore the followers positioning isn't led by the preztel's so called visual signal.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You're using a different definition of signal to everyone else, moving backwards whilst holding someones hand tends to make them follow you but it is not a signal. This thread is about actual signals that rely on the follower knowing or guessing what they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I would think that most signals are visual
    Don't read that into the original post nor several of the replies so will happily disagree and carry on dancing believing that my lead consists of a collection of different types of signals.

    For instance the move backwards could be handled 3 ways, all of which are signals in my book:
    1. Saying 'follow me please' - verbal signal
    2. Hooking your finger in front of your face or indeed just walking backwards without touching your partner - visual signal
    3. Tugging gently on the fingers of the follow's hand - tactile signal
    Regardless of whether we call them signals or leads there are a bunch of common conventions that are designed to get the follow moving in a predictable way and without which it would hardly be dancing.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    If anyones up for blindfolded dancing at SP, give me a shout. I've led many times. Not experienced a blind follower yet but like to try.

  5. #45
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Re the eyes closed thing, I don't think there are 'signals' in AT and I always dance it with my eyes closed (I find I can feel the lead better), which is possibly what led me to that comment.

    I guess for some people the distinction of 'when is a lead a signal' varies. To me a 'signal' makes me think of a 'move' as in 'this is the signal for this move' and that's not how I follow - I don't think in terms of 'moves' most of the time.

  6. #46
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Don't read that into the original post nor several of the replies so will happily disagree and carry on dancing believing that my lead consists of a collection of different types of signals.
    Well you can call it what you like, but that use of "signal" is confusing on this thread

    For instance the move backwards could be handled 3 ways, all of which are signals in my book:
    1. Saying 'follow me please' - verbal signal
    2. Hooking your finger in front of your face or indeed just walking backwards without touching your partner - visual signal
    3. Tugging gently on the fingers of the follow's hand - tactile signal
    The first two are signals - agreed (and they are the subject of this thread), the last one is simply a lead and not a signal, in the same way as pushing someone headfirst down a hill is not a signal; you need to fight against it to not go with it

    Regardless of whether we call them signals or leads there are a bunch of common conventions that are designed to get the follow moving in a predictable way and without which it would hardly be dancing.

    Agreed, but this thread was specifically about "pre-defined" signals not leads.

    Quote Originally Posted by First Post
    pre-defined signals to aid the follower in understand the intention of the leader

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    {I'm sure I wrote this in response to something in another thread, but I can't remember what or where }


    When a follower "follows", they should generally follow the path of least resistance. Normally this is provided by the lead's guidance taking them down one route. If the follower blinkers themselves by anticipating, then they are blinding themselves to any other paths that the lead may take them.

    A good follower is often aware of these paths and be constantly looking for a change in lead that would indicate to them to take that path. They compensate for a poorer lead by picking the most likely variation/path from the lead given.

    A good lead doesn’t need the follower to look for changes; they guide them down the variation. But there is a slight change of perception of the lead's role here; they do three things in the role of leading:

    1) they show the follower the path they are going to take next. This is preparation and the clearer it is, the more confidence the follower will have in following the path lead wants them to take. The fuzzier the preparation, the less confidence the follower has in moving where the lead takes them. If they show one path and lead another, confusion will arise.

    2) they accompany the follower down the path. This is where most people start leading from: holding the follower's hand and pulling them down the path. As the lead gets more experienced and better at it, they "grow up" from a child's pulling to accompanying the follower and guiding them by falling in step beside them with linked arms.

    3) they block other paths that are not relevant to where the lead wants to go. There are no distractions towards other variations, any movement towards a path that the lead does not wish the follower to take is diverted back to the main path. This results in a clarity in the lead, a confidence and 'strength' in the lead that has nothing to do with the second role.

    While these are three facets to leading, they are conscious decisions and defined actions: While walking with the follower, there is a chance to "talk" with them; to see what paths they would like to take and change direction to accommodate them. If a partner is trying to get onto a path the lead has blocked, they can open it up for them.
    You could lead by only using just one of these roles, but they work best when used in unison.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I would think that most signals are visual - if I can follow a movement with my eyes closed its not likely to have many signals (only exception being a 'tap' perhaps).

    The other definition is the difference between a signal and a visual lead. Is an offered hand behind the back for a pretzel a signal or a visual lead?

    We've talked about this a lot before I know, but I guess there is mileage in discussing again...
    Ah so it is the visual lead that I always seem to miss rather than the signal for Pretzel Only PM, and a few others, who know my habit of missing the Pretzel signal seems to be able to get me into it without any effort.

    I don't miss this signal deliberately - Honestly

    I just prefer to be looking into leaders eyes than to be looking for signals at waist level (or anywhere else)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    {I'm sure I wrote this in response to something in another thread, but I can't remember what or where }

    .........

    You could lead by only using just one of these roles, but they work best when used in unison.
    I knew there were reasons that even when I am tired after a weekender of sleep deprivation, you can control my unruly right arm

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ..........3) they block other paths that are not relevant to where the lead wants to go. There are no distractions towards other variations, any movement towards a path that the lead does not wish the follower to take is diverted back to the main path. This results in a clarity in the lead, a confidence and 'strength' in the lead that has nothing to do with the second role.
    I understand and probably use 1 & 2, but 3 has me perplexed. Block unwanted alternatives is not something I consciously think about.
    I wonder if a few of my moves unconsciously block escape routes?

    I'll have to think this through while I'm dancing.

  10. #50
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    Block unwanted alternatives is not something I consciously think about.
    I wonder if a few of my moves unconsciously block escape routes?
    As far as I know, certain moves are taught with this already built in. Here in NZ I've learnt the First Move Ocho (not sure fi you get that in the UK) where the lead guides the follow into a series of stylish steps in front of him.

    Part of the reason the follow does it in a small, controlled manner is that the lead's left hand is holding the follow's right hand in front of her stomach, effectly limiting the speed and direction that she can move at.

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    I recently went to a jive class while I was on holiday elsewhere in the country. I could tell that the first four men I danced with were tut-tutting at me about something but I couldn't really hear them because the music was so loud. I was wondering what I was doing wrong and was getting quite demoralised when the fifth one stopped dead when I had obviously missed something, and said plaintively: "That was a double-barrelled end stop in E flat minor...we did that six weeks ago, I did wave my hand". So I wondered whether maybe some jive classes teach signals more than the classes I normally go to, where the man would lead the move in freestyle rather than expect me to step through a routine as he holds my hand.

    (And yes, I was tempted to say something along the lines of "if you'd led your double-barrelled end stop properly then I wouldn't have needed to know whether it was in E flat minor or not" but being nicely brought up, I just smiled and said "Whoops, sorry, I wasn't here six weeks ago")

    Generally speaking, I find one of the problems with signals rather than being 'led' is that the more different men I dance with, the more variations I find I have been led through, so in some ways it seems to be getting harder, not easier. A signal which used to mean to me that I was about to be doing a, now I know that it could actually mean doing a, b, c, d, etc. so having the alternatives blocked seems quite appealing. Also, men do seem to vary with the way they do their signals, don't they? Particularly the strange ones (both men AND signals, that is!)

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    "That was a double-barrelled end stop in E flat minor...we did that six weeks ago, I did wave my hand".
    You should NEVER feel you have to say sorry just because he is a poor lead

    SPROGGS

  13. #53
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Bollards. Of course they are signals. What on earth is a lead if it does not signal something to the follower with the expectation that they'll be doing something as a result.
    From the Forum Glossary:
    Signals or Signalling: An aid (visual, verbal or tactile) to let the lady know what move is coming up next. Signals are controversial in social dancing, and leads should be wary of using signals with dancers they have not explained the signal to: the same signals have been known to be taught as different moves by different people. Similarly, followers must be sure of a signal before throwing themselves into a move such as a drop - the lead may just be wiping their brow
    In this forum, "signals" and "leads" have generally been viewed as separate things.

    It's usually a good idea to follow convention in these discussions, otherwise we all get even more confused than we are already.

  14. #54
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    hey, who are you ?

  15. #55
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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    hey, who are you ?
    Blimey*, how long have you got?

    Also, should I assume "A" stands for "Artist"?

    * Yes that was a clue

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    Re: Does your leader confuse you?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Also, should I assume "A" stands for "Artist"?
    If you like, yes

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