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Thread: The police are becoming a self-parody

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    The police are becoming a self-parody

    Check this out.

    After the recent farce in which the police had to apologise to documentary film makers for accusing them of inciting religious hatred, I am beginning to wonder if they don't need a higher standard of lawyers in the CPS and police advisory groups.

    But then this is exactly what Rowan Atkinson and others were complaining about when they protested against the planned bill to criminalise religious hatred.

    Good grief, if you can't call scientology a cult in England, where it isn't a religion and where that description was applied by a High Court judge what chance is there of assessing the organisation reasonably?

    Of course Scientology is trying to force the UK to accept it as a religion using some carelessly drafted European legislation. Hopefully, as long as it continues to charge $500 for annual membership and/or $1000s for the auditing process, the UK will continue to treat it as no different from Antony Robbins' self-improvement businesses.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Check this out.

    After the recent farce in which the police had to apologise to documentary film makers for accusing them of inciting religious hatred, I am beginning to wonder if they don't need a higher standard of lawyers in the CPS and police advisory groups.
    Indeed - they are, increasingly, a joke. It should be obvious that police are NOT there to make moral judgements, especially not based on the ideas of whatever religious lobbying group is cosying up to them - they are there purely to make legal judgements.

    But then this is exactly what Rowan Atkinson and others were complaining about when they protested against the planned bill to criminalise religious hatred.
    hatred is hatred, there should be nothing particular about "religious hatred" that needs its own law.


    Good grief, if you can't call scientology a cult in England, where it isn't a religion and where that description was applied by a High Court judge what chance is there of assessing the organisation reasonably?
    This is where I have an issue - Scientology is as much of a religion as others - it meets all of the criteria for being one. Equally it can be called a cult. It all depends on your point of view People should be free to call it what they like and protest against it as they protest against anything else without the police charging them over the use of certain words.

    Of course Scientology is trying to force the UK to accept it as a religion using some carelessly drafted European legislation. Hopefully, as long as it continues to charge $500 for annual membership and/or $1000s for the auditing process, the UK will continue to treat it as no different from Antony Robbins' self-improvement businesses.
    Not the first church, or religion, to take money from people is it? Neither Scientology or any other religion should receive any actual legal or social benefit from "officially" being called one, its just a name.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Er, hang on Barry, isn't this more about the Law in question being a parody of good law? We all knew that laws about incitement to religous hatred were a complete nonsense - the fact that they had to perform linguistic somersaults to prevent things like, um, the Bible and Koran being included among the publications inciting religious hatred said it all. Ah, but all that heathen-smiting and infidel-butchering is contextual, isn't it? I forgot.

    Anyway, is the Rowan Atkinson reference relevant here? He was criticising the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill, and this guy seems to have been charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act, which itself looks like another of those handy catch-all laws which you really regret being on the statute books when a dictator comes along.

    Having said that, to me the really disturbing aspect of this story, is the way this cult has bought influence with the City of London police. To quote:
    The City of London police came under fire two years ago when it emerged that more than 20 officers, ranging from constable to chief superintendent, had accepted gifts worth thousands of pounds from the Church of Scientology.

    The City of London Chief Superintendent, Kevin Hurley, praised Scientology for "raising the spiritual wealth of society" during the opening
    of its headquarters in 2006.

    Last year a video praising Scientology emerged featuring Ken Stewart, another of the City of London's chief superintendents, although he is not a member of the group.
    Mind you, with the police, I suppose if it weren't the Scientologists it'd be the Freemasons...

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    I thought The Police split up years ago.

    Great band.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I thought The Police split up years ago.
    There's always one! (thank God)

    It's what stops this forum from being totally hijacked by bores and used for purposes far away from its original conception

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I thought The Police split up years ago.

    Great band.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    There's always one! (thank God)

    It's what stops this forum from being totally hijacked by bores and used for purposes far away from its original conception


    The Police as we know have got back together a number of times

    In fact they have reached a cult status, I see no irony in BDs comments

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post


    The Police as we know have got back together a number of times

    In fact they have reached a cult status, I see no irony in BDs comments
    But surely The Police (band) named themselves ironically?

    Plus - "I'll be watching you."

    Every move you make, every breath you take, I'll be watching you......

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Er, hang on Barry, isn't this more about the Law in question being a parody of good law? We all knew that laws about incitement to religous hatred were a complete nonsense - the fact that they had to perform linguistic somersaults to prevent things like, um, the Bible and Koran being included among the publications inciting religious hatred said it all. Ah, but all that heathen-smiting and infidel-butchering is contextual, isn't it? I forgot.

    Anyway, is the Rowan Atkinson reference relevant here? He was criticising the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill, and this guy seems to have been charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act, which itself looks like another of those handy catch-all laws which you really regret being on the statute books when a dictator comes along.
    All good points. It's the political correctitude behind the various things of which I complain. And it is the police, not the law: it is a policeman (and possibly a CPS lawyer) somewhere who has determined that the world 'cult' is capable of being 'insulting or abusive'. The section is clearly aimed at preventing people from shouting 'niggers out' or 'death to those who insult islam'. Not 'Scientology is a cult'!!
    Having said that, to me the really disturbing aspect of this story, is the way this cult has bought influence with the City of London police. To quote:

    Mind you, with the police, I suppose if it weren't the Scientologists it'd be the Freemasons...
    Scientology? Freemasons? Hang on - I thing you may be on to something there...

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    This is where I have an issue - Scientology is as much of a religion as others - it meets all of the criteria for being one. Equally it can be called a cult. It all depends on your point of view People should be free to call it what they like and protest against it as they protest against anything else without the police charging them over the use of certain words.
    Not the first church, or religion, to take money from people is it? Neither Scientology or any other religion should receive any actual legal or social benefit from "officially" being called one, its just a name.
    Well, I agree to a point. One set of barmy beliefs is no worse than any other, in principle. But the fact is that in the UK at least scientology is not a religion, and so therefore pays tax like any other business. And that's the way I want it to stay.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I thought The Police split up years ago.

    Great band.
    Yeah. But I thought that about Genesis.

    Then over the weekend I see they reformed (the least exciting line-up, sans Gabriel, sans Hackett, anyway) last year and played a bunch of stadiums.

    You can't kill a supergroup. Or if you do they don't stay dead!

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, I agree to a point. One set of barmy beliefs is no worse than any other, in principle. But the fact is that in the UK at least scientology is not a religion, and so therefore pays tax like any other business. And that's the way I want it to stay.
    Getting back on track, if its not seen as a religion in the UK then I assume there will be no case to answer ?

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Getting back on track, if its not seen as a religion in the UK then I assume there will be no case to answer ?
    Well, that's certainly the submission I would make at trial, after the crown rested. "This is a word used by a High Court judge - together with more serious criticism still. How can it be insulting or abusive to describe an organisation in the same terms as Mr Justice X? That would imply that reporting the judge's decision given in open court, without reporting restrictions, might be impugnable under the law - which must be wrong."

    But the relevant Public Order Act provisions aren't restricted to religious abuse and insult.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    got to love TheRegisters front page headline on this story (here)

    Quote Originally Posted by El Reg Headline
    Teen battles City of London cops over anti-Scientology placard
    Faces prosecution for branding Hubbardites a cu*t

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Apparently The Rolling Stones were playing a gig when their manager knocked on the Dressing Room door and said the Police were outside and wanted to see them.. Keith Richards & Ronnie Wood panicked and flushed a couple of grands worth of illegal substances down the toilet... I'm guessing Keith & Ronnie were gob-smacked when the door opened and Sting walked in....

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    got to love TheRegisters front page headline on this story (here)
    Thanks, DS. The photo of the notice, in my view, makes it even clearer that the police are barking.

    Sorry, barking up the wrong tree.

    "...within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby."

    Harassment is defined as subjecting someone to "constant and repeated physical and/or verbal persecution"
    Alarm means "frightened anticipation of danger"
    Distress means to cause "trouble, pain anguish or hardship"

    Setting aside the hopeless grammar (the word distress in the body of the act is used as a noun but it is defined further down the notice as a verb), I can't see this having legs.

    There's no alarm suffered as a result of being called a cult. There's no trouble or pain or hardship. There's no physical persecution.

    That leaves only anguish and 'constant and repeated verbal persecution'.

    I can't see anquish properly applying to a scientologist reading a 'cult' placard. (Unless he suddenly realises what a complete donkey he's been, utterly taken in by the pseudo-scientificospiritual gloop...and wouldn't that rather prove the placard's point?)

    So: 'constant and repeated verbal persecution'. I'd really hate to have to prove that point in front of a bunch of exasperated magistrates. It's constant AND repeated, and a few people turning up at a demonstration now and then, with the scientologists happily poncing about in their £multi-million headquarters...it's not a promising brief.

    A final point: since scientology doesn't have the faintest link to or in the teeny tiniest way endorse the christian religion - why is a traditional crucifiction-type cross such a central part of their - um - logo? Badge? Of course, it's crossed by an X for Xenu, but still...

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    There's no alarm suffered as a result of being called a cult.
    Not true. If seeing the sign causes one to exclaim "oh my xenu, what was I thinking!!! Its a goddamn cult!!!" that'd be alarming, and they may have to go and lie down. Then perhaps go home, take the Tom Cruise posters off the wall and get a real hobby.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Connections between Scientology and the police are known. A known example is the case of Clearwater, Florida.

    Scientology and the Clearwater Police

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat_Eric View Post
    Connections between Scientology and the police are known. A known example is the case of Clearwater, Florida.

    Scientology and the Clearwater Police
    update - CPS say "oops!" - theregister

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    update - CPS say "oops!" - theregister
    I refer my honourable friend to the answer I gave some days ago.

    If there was a phone call I expect the CPS lawyer may have used some colourful language.

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    Re: The police are becoming a self-parody

    I see that the police are having another go at earning public respect:

    'You can't preach the Bible here, this is a Muslim area'

    Perhaps the Government will add the concept of free speech to the police training curriculum...

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