Originally Posted by Lory
I think this is something of an implied restriction to be honest.
Many good MJ dancers insist, quite correctly, that you don't have to step once on every beat, but every class I've seen has taught moves that way if they bother mentioning the footwork at all. It's what the overwhelming majority of MJ dancers (if they're on-beat at all anyway)and teachers do.
In my experience varying from that rhythm tends to distract your partner because you're not doing what they expect. Even if the lead is still fine the whole way if find they tend to worry through the dance rather than just enjoy it. The alternative then is to tone it down and "plod" away in a limited way for your partners benefit, which is limiting if you feel inclined to do something else to the music.
I think this is cop out argument.
In one sense it's true in that without any rules to adhere to anything is possible. In a practical sense though I think it's wash. Firstly, there is enough variety in options open within the rule sets of more strictly defined dances that I don't believe the limitations provide a ceiling to musical interpretation for any individual to hit in their lifetime. Secondly, the existence of rules may rule out some moves or techniques - but they also enable others. I can't lead tick-tock footwork on my follower for instance if they don't anchor step with a triple.
In addition to that, despite having the ability to lead anything at all in MJ, the technique from both dancers that is required to do so is in many cases non-existent. Dancers with highly developed lead/follow skills in the MJ world are vanishingly rare and teachers even rarer. Those who do demonstrate that ability have almost invariably learned their skills elsewhere before starting MJ. While it's possible to have good technique and rubbish musical interpretation in a partnered dance, it's very difficult to have good musical interpretation (that makes sense to anyone outside your own mind anyway...) with rubbish technique.
To be entirely fair that last paragraph isn't a criticism of MJ as a dance form itself - but one of the business model. The catch is that the two are so closely aligned in this case that I don't think it's possible to separate them for practical purposes. In order to reverse the situation* most of the teachers would need to be extensively re-trained or discarded entirely which wouldn't be good for business.
*I'd rather someone started another thread or resurrected an old one if they want to debate about whether we should even want to do so as I think it'll just derail any conversation about musicality. I'm well aware there are good arguments about why people wouldn't want change
And you have to decide fast! I tend to decide to do a double spin partway through the first spin based on how fast I am going and what the music is doing. Sometimes I get it wrong and end up half a beat behind :shrug: - but its fab when the timing is perfect.
Naw, just wiggle...
It is possible for the lead to "set up" how fast or slow he want s the follow to spin.
For instance when leading the ceroc spin, the lead can use a little force for a slow spin, a bit more for a medium speed spin and more force for a fast spin.
The lead can even control how many spins the follow will end up doing.
I'm not a lead, so can't explain it well, but it's physics. Force and motion? Centifugial force.
Last edited by Astro; 19th-May-2008 at 11:52 AM.
I think on a 'free' spin it should be entirely up to the follower how fast/slow she spins and how many spins that involves. For me as leader all I expect is that she be ready to be led again in time with the music - spins that finish slightly behind the beat (or too far ahead of it come to that) are incredibly frustrating for the leader (well, for me they are).
I appreciate it when a follower allows me to lead the degree of turn or spin that I want in order to fit the move that I desire or the musicality.
I often want to lead the follower to do only half a turn as I rotate by a half turn to collect her. I also use a rotating manhattan with and outside turn for the follower so that I can collect her smoothly and carry on dancing. These things (and many others) just don't work if a follower takes any lead to turn as and opportunity to go into high speed multiple turns.
Obviously the followers high speed/multiple turns will work in their own right but they are not what I was expecting because that was not what I led. Whenever I get something that is not what I led then I have to very quickly come up with a repsonse to it.
If the follower spins faster and finishes ahead of the beat then I have to insert a small delay to lead her again on the beat. It can look like there is a constant stutter in the dance. If she does multiple spins that I did not lead then have to abort my plans to collect her for fear of knocking her off balance while she still has too much rotational momentum. I have to keep out of the way until she slows down enough to collect.
Kyle Redd and Sarah Vann Drake have a saying "surprise your audience, not your partner". They want you to lead smoothly and in sufficient time that your partner is not having to guess your intentions. If there was a similar one for follows it might be "follow only what is led". If I want you to spin fast/multiple I will give you the lead for it. If I lead you slow it is because I want you to turn slowly. Trust me - I have a better idea of what is coming next than you do. Of course when I am not leading you are open to do what you want as long as you understand that I will want to start leading again at a suitable point.
This couldn't help but remind me of a I watched last night. As good as the lead is, I love what Tatiana makes of his plans to freeze on the 1.07 breakAnd while we're on the subject of musicality
Quite a nice example. They have both acknowledged the presence of the break. It doesn't mean that both of you have to freeze like statues for the duration of the break. One, or both of you can "do stuff" but be in a position to restart together at the end of the break.This couldn't help but remind me of a I watched last night. As good as the lead is, I love what Tatiana makes of his plans to freeze on the 1.07 break
In the break at 1:07 in the video he may have been intending to lead something during the break but Tatiana has started doing her thing early enough to let the leader know that he should not lead anything but be a stationary support. She is done in good time for him to be able to lead after the break.
What she could not have done is to wait until he leads something and then pull him back so that she could do what she wants.
While a lot of us would love to have the musicality of Jordan and Tatiana (or a number of others) most of us are looking for a starting point to start exploring musicality in our dancing. I applaud lost leaders post for giving a lot of really good advice to those people that want to make a start, without being so nit picky that it puts people off.
Musicality is made much easier with connection between the partners, and both partner connected to the music. If the follower is not allowing the leader to lead then the leader doesn't grow to understand what they need to do in order to really lead. If the leader doesn't provide a good clear lead the followers stop trusting them. As followers and leaders we can only grow with the help of each other. Trust them when they are getting it right and understanding and patience when they are not.
Shows the contrast in approach from leaders on this. Or does it? I'm not sure if you are referring to 'spins' as in free spins or 'turns/assisted spins'. I can't think of any reason why a follower would fight against the speed of lead on an assisted spin so you must be talking about free spins?
Personally I find multiple (free) spins an opportunity for me to have some input into the dance and I take responsibility of getting round on the beat and in time for the leader to collect. I don't always get it right but then leaders don't always get things right either.
I really hate it when an inexperienced lead tries to make me do multiple spins, they think if they push harder that gives me more momentum to get round more than once, they don't realise it usually just pushes me off balance.
I feel the same way about it whether it is a free spin or not. If I get something different from what I lead then it surprises me and I have to think of a way to cope with that - in the same way that followers don't like it when leaders spend an awful lot of time trying to catch their followers out. Setting your partner up for a fall is not what dancing is about for me, and that applies to leaders and followers IMHO. Others may like it but it is not my cup of tea.
I know it is very irksome when inexperienced leaders try to get you to do multiple spins and just put too much energy into the lead, and apply it too sharply. But the key point is that they are inexperienced. They have mostly been dancing with inexperienced followers and have come away with the feeling that most of them have their feet stuck to the floor with glue. So the only way to get most of the people that they dance with to spin is to launch them into orbit.
Most men don't spin themselves so they don't understand how delicate the balance required is. They don't understand that most of the energy needed is to start the spin and very little extra energy is needed for multiple spins. They don't understand that the energy needs to be applied smoothly and constantly in a circle around the follows central axis. If you want to spin up a childrens playground merry-go-round a bit of force, applied evenly, around the direction of travel is far more effective than hitting it with a sledgehammer.
They are inexperienced. Understanding why they don't understand and patience in helping them understand will nurture them along. Very few people dance badly because they want to.
Yep, a dance consisting of lots of complicated moves feels very much like 'try to catch the follower out' - but I wouldn't have thought a follower doing a multiple spin, or slowing down part of a return to match music with a fast snap around for the last part is 'setting your partner up for a fall' when they aren't affecting the timing of the dance.
I spend a lot of time and patience trying to help nurture less experienced leads. But how exactly does a lead learn to lead a multiple free spin? Who shows them this? How did you learn it?
I can't think of any occasion where I have been 'led' to do multiple free spins, its always been a snap decision based on the music and whether two spins will 'fit', and how fast I am going which usually has more to do with the shoe/floor combo than any momentum generated by the lead.
I think it can be 'invited' but I'd really rather it was something the lead let me decide.
I always welcome my followers doing multiple spins when it adds something musically to the dance, or doesn't affect the overall timing too much.
Inexperienced followers may sometimes do multiple spins which breaks the rhythm of the dance. I am patient with them, as they may still be learning how to best use their spinning ability.
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
I think the key part of what you said was "when they aren't affecting the timing of the dance". I would add to that that I would like them to finish on balance, in control of themselves and preferably in the same place as they started. I know we all have off nights but some people seem to want to try to run before they can walk. People that try 3-4 spins while travelling across the floor scattering other dancers from their path and then need my intervention to prevent them from hitting the floor when it was obvious that they were in trouble before the end of the first spin - they affect the timing of the dance.
I learnt it from Nina Daines. She does an excellant class on spinning (in fact all her classes are excellant). She made the men and women all do the same excercises to show them how the balance is achieved, how delicate the balance is, how to apply the lead in an arc like tracing a hula hoop centred on your partner, and how to apply it evenly without any power surges that will disturb your partners balance. She also taught the followers how having a floppy arm stopped the transfer of power to the follower and how this might encourage men to use too much power in an effort to get enough transferred.
Most men learn with followers who spin badly and have floppy arms. Then they dance with you and treat you as if you are the same. Result - misery for you.
Well I make a snap decision based on the music and wether two spins will fit and provide the lead for it. If I was leading you into a free spin and was planning to do a mirror of your spin myself and collect in open first move position, if Iwas going to do a double spin I would lead the follwer into a double spin just for the sake of symmetry and so we looked like we were dancing together. It is about wether you really trust your leader to deliver you to the music.
Everybody needs a playground to learn in and we must give each other space to play and through that, understand. When people learn drops they put them in everywhere. When they get more experienced they use them sparingly and where appropriate in the music. The early part of learning seems to be centred on the mechanics and the latter part on the context and presentation of a move. It is the natural order of learning.
First multiple spin I did was in Britrock int comp - Andy McG was doing multiple spins, I had to keep up!
My spinning varies so much - on my footwear, floor, my balance, how I'm feeling, what sort of dancing I've been doing etc. Sometimes I feel I am dancing really badly - but spinning well (bizzare I know!). I know I can do perfectly timed, fast double spins, controlled and on the spot and be on beat ready for the lead. But I don't know till I try whether I can do them on any given night!
Its funny that we don't have more teaching on how to lead and follow spins, given that they are a regular feature of the dance. I've done a private on spinning technique at a weekender and there was a useful workshop on travelling spins at Blaze but it tends to get mentioned in passing, just about, in regular classes.
All of which brings us back on topic...
Musicality spin off:
MJ picks a represntative: WCS picks a representative.
They spin at different times to different pieces of music and the audience judges who is more musical.
For MJ, I propose Jamie "Peter Pan" Storey.
For WCS I propose Lee Easton. I watched perform something around the mid 20's unassisted pirouettes before a Twickenham class once. He was doing flash flicky stuff with the spare leg the whole way through....All of which brings us back on topic...
Musicality spin off:
MJ picks a represntative: WCS picks a representative.
They spin at different times to different pieces of music and the audience judges who is more musical.
For MJ, I propose Jamie "Peter Pan" Storey.
Ahhhhhhhhh, but was it musical??He was doing flash flicky stuff with the spare leg the whole way through....
Possibly. At least if you consider it a worthy interpretation of a lack of music. I wasn't going to argue.Ahhhhhhhhh, but was it musical??
A number of times you have made statements about West Coast "rules" that contradict my experience of West Coast, and the experience of other West Coast dancers. Typically they are more like guidelines or descriptions of beginner West Coast than actual rules. I think this may be distorting your judgement of the relative freedom of Modern Jive and West Coast.
As Lori explains, I don't have to finish a pattern in West Coast either. In practice, I don't do one-move-dances in either dance.
The same can be done in West Coast. If I lead my follower forwards on the "6" of a six-beat pattern, she should follow that, turning her anchor step into a "back-together-forwards" triple step that transitions directly into the next move, replacing the normal "step step".
There are a several things that I can lead out of an anchor in West Coast, and several things I can choose to do as a follower, depending on the lead. It doesn't have to be step, step. The first alternative I learnt was in a beginner West Coast class - tripling in place for four beats.
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There are some places I agree with ducasi, to some extent:
I agree that Cha Cha and West Coast are different dances.
On the other hand, Cha Cha and Modern Jive are also different dances.
A clearer example might be rock steps in open. Modern Jive has them, right from the first class. I've not seen them in West Coast at all so far.
I essentially agree with this from a leader's perspective. As a follower, I find that I have slightly more footwork options in West Coast, as the underlying footwork pattern is slightly more varied.
Otherwise known as a 'Coaster step'
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"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
Its Called a "Rock and Go" in WCS.
There is more complicated version which is used to condence two 6 beat patterns into one 10 beat pattern. I would be happy to demonstrate either for you.
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