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Thread: Musicality

  1. #21
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by tanjive View Post
    Funny I thought Ceroc was a brand name of MJ. So how can you "Cease being Ceroc and become MJ"?

    From other points on the thread most dances are learnt starting with moves. Improvisation comes with understanding the concepts and how the partners move relative to each other re balance, weight, expectation etc. An understanding of music structure becomes prerequisite as well, which many do not have when they first start to dance. I know I had no music knowledge when beginning.

    I am fairly new to WCS, but have done MJ and tango for a long time now. From my experience dances that start quite rigid, rule like, "its done like this" such as tango and WCS most of the rules you learn change. You can do the basic but if you break that concept whole new movements are possible. Simple WCS example in sugar push the guys 3&4 triple can be replaced with a step to side as long as timing kept. The idea of replacing triples with a step at any point is possible it is matter of being musical and appropriate in breaking the basic move.

    Doing too much of any non standard footwork would eventually change the look of the dance. For me once the dance is unrecognisable it ceases to be that dance and is just a mash of MJ and WCS. It may or may not be good mostly not from the outside.
    I have stood back and watched good Westies dancing. There are so many moves in there that it very closely resembles Ceroc. The only really noticeable differences are the step/s (footwork) done occasionally while one or other partner completes a move and the slightly slower pace of WCS. But even Ceroc can be done to that slower music without going into Blues style.

  2. #22
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by tanjive View Post
    Simple WCS example in sugar push the guys 3&4 triple can be replaced with a step to side as long as timing kept. The idea of replacing triples with a step at any point is possible it is matter of being musical and appropriate in breaking the basic move.
    all you have to do, is understand the 'value' of each count..

    using your example, the side step that's replacing the triple, uses the same 'value in time' as the triple its replacing.

    You still end up with the same foot and on the same beat, you've just cut out 2 little steps.

    Simple
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Of course!

    Why would you want it with less though
    Why do Ceroc teach their dance with less? Maybe it makes it easier to learn?

    In this country most people learning WCS already are dancers. Perhaps in the US there are people who teach WCS to beginners with less emphasis on musicality to begin with?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Why do Ceroc teach their dance with less? Maybe it makes it easier to learn?
    I 'could' be very controversial and say, maybe it's cos a lot of the Ceroc teachers don't have an in-depth enough understanding of it themselves.

    Or maybe it would be too much of a work load, to have to spend time preparing lessons choreographed to fit a phrase of music?

    But I wont

    Yes, your right, it makes it easier to learn... and teach!
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  5. #25
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    Re: Musicality

    (Puts on serious hat) Yes, the whole musicality thing is undoubtedly a tricky business and one that I am only now beginning to scratch the surface of.

    As has been said, one of the problems is that many MJ teachers will put together a class routine, whether beginner or intermediate, and teach it during the class to whatever track the DJ happens to feel like playing at the time.The moves themselves will generally flow pretty well from one move to the next but they are not choreographed for a particular track, and if there happens to be a break in the music they will more often than not simply ignore it. Now, the fact that a routine of 3 or 4 moves in MJ can look reasonably good danced to a wide range of types and speeds of music is a strength (MJ is flexible and adaptable) but at the same time it is also a weakness in that teaching in this way can lead to some of the subtleties of musicality being overlooked and the potential to explore this is often consequently lost.

    There are of course exceptions so far as teaching is concerned. Some teachers do make a real effort to teach musicality - Marc F, Sarah White and CJ for example.

    So how can one begin the task of getting to grips with musicality? Well here are a few things that have helped me (I am mostly coming at this from a leader's perspective but some of the points apply equally to followers):

    1. Do musicality classes. They do exist. Seek them out. Ladies styling classes are also a great help for coping with those "What do I do when the music stops?" moments. If you cannot get to a class you can also sometimes find such classes on DVD's. Blues classes will also help.

    2. Listen to the music - and I don't just mean while you are dancing. Put some "challenging" MJ tracks on your I-Pod and / or play them in your car. Rather than singing along to them really concentrate on the music and listen out for breaks, changes of tempo, changes of mood etc. in the music and think about how you might respond to these in your dancing. For leads especially this will also help you to start to recognise patterns and anticipate breaks better.

    3. Seek out venues and events where there are more opportunities to learn, practice or improve your musicality. Is the music at your venue mostly fast paced dance tracks with a steady regular beat? If the answer is yes go somewhere else if you can where hopefully the music may be a little more varied. Try different teachers. Seek out blues rooms.

    4. Challenge yourself. Rather than sitting out those unfamiliar, hard to dance to tracks get stuck in and have a go. Get out of your dance comfort zone.

    5. Stop worrying about learning new moves. Only bother about those which suit your personal style of dancing and which you think will be useful. These are rarely the most complex and difficult moves.

    6. Try to relax more and "feel the music". Easier said then done I know.

    7. Take cues from your partner. They can often suggest how one might respond to a particular beat or other musical cue. Copy them, mirror them, allow them to "do their thing". This is an especially useful tip for leads because, lets face it, ladies are often better at this sort of stuff than we clumsy blokes. In fact for leaders one of the most musical things you can do is simply to give your partner the time and space to be musical.

    8. Watch and learn from other good dancers. Not just the flashy ones. Try to seek out the ones who are best at interpreting the music. However, whilst you can learn a lot in this way remember that everyone dances in their own way and there is no single way in which music has to be interpreted - there is a lot of scope for individuality.

    9. Have a good look in your moves tool box. Are there moves in there which you can't execute very well or smoothly? If so get rid of them and while you are about it chuck out most of those complicated arm twiddly moves as well and all those moves that are very hard or impossible to actually lead in free style. Now look at what is left and try to work with a smaller repertoire of moves you feel really confident about and think about how they could be danced more musically, i.e. with subtle variations of pace, timing or styling as appropriate to the music. By sticking to a narrower bunch of moves you know well you will have more thinking capacity during the actual dance for all that musicality mullarky. Once you have a had a good clear out of your moves tool box you may also find that there are one or two things you didn't realise were missing - perhaps one or two stylish but easy linking moves which the really good dancers seem to use all the time but rarely seem to get taught.

    10. Don't be afraid to stop. By that I mean pause when there is a pause in the music. Such pauses are a powerful element of musicality but stopping during a dance can be a difficult thing to get used to at first. Of course it is not just about pausing, what about speeding up or slowing down, dancing to double time or half time, doing twirly moves to twirly parts of a song and smoother flowing moves to smoother parts of the song. In other words responding in some way to what the music is suggesting and reflecting this in your dancing, rather than just doing one move after another ignoring everything but the basic beat.

    Finally, Don't expect miracles. You cannot transform your dancing overnight but you can start somewhere and then start to enjoy the journey towards musicality enlightenment. Now, if only I could actually do all that stuff I've just written down........

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Musicality

    Slight tango .... errrrrr ..... tangent -

    What's the difference (and/or relationship) between 'musicality' and '(creative) self-expression'? [new thread perchance??]

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    Slight tango .... errrrrr ..... tangent -

    What's the difference (and/or relationship) between 'musicality' and '(creative) self-expression'? [new thread perchance??]
    My two pence: You express yourself through musical dancing.

    Dan

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    {Long and thoughtful post}
    Some good stuff there LL but I wanted to pick up on a few points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    5. Stop worrying about learning new moves. Only bother about those which suit your personal style of dancing and which you think will be useful. These are rarely the most complex and difficult moves.
    {snip}
    9. Have a good look in your moves tool box. Are there moves in there which you can't execute very well or smoothly? If so get rid of them and while you are about it chuck out most of those complicated arm twiddly moves as well and all those moves that are very hard or impossible to actually lead in free style.
    I used to follow that school of thought and any new move that I couldn't lead easily and smoothly I would dismiss. Then I realised that sometimes you can't get a move immediately and even more complex patterns can, given time, be practiced such that they can be lead well and smoothly. Of course the critical element is that the path from first being shown a move to then working out what makes a move 'tick' to then being able to lead it smoothly must not involve hurting your follower. Hurting your own ego is par for the course though

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    7. Take cues from your partner. They can often suggest how one might respond to a particular beat or other musical cue. Copy them, mirror them, allow them to "do their thing". This is an especially useful tip for leads because, lets face it, ladies are often better at this sort of stuff than we clumsy blokes. In fact for leaders one of the most musical things you can do is simply to give your partner the time and space to be musical.
    On the very rare occasions when I have tried following I have found I can concentrate on the music, especially stuff that I know/feel is coming up (and thus plan stuff I will do to mark elements of it) much more easily than when I am leading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    8. Watch and learn from other good dancers. Not just the flashy ones. Try to seek out the ones who are best at interpreting the music. However, whilst you can learn a lot in this way remember that everyone dances in their own way and there is no single way in which music has to be interpreted - there is a lot of scope for individuality.
    Surely if there is 'no single way in which music has to be interpreted' then there can't be 'ones who are best at interpreting the music'

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    7. Take cues from your partner. ... This is an especially useful tip for leads because, lets face it, ladies are often better at this sort of stuff than we clumsy blokes.
    This is an especially useful tip for leads because good followers are already watching their partners like hawks.

    I find it useful to reject phrases like "we clumsy blokes" that might otherwise serve as a psychological barrier to my continuing improvement as a dancer. They don't seem helpful except as excuses.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    No, I know exactly what you mean, I feel it instinctively too, the '1' just shouts out at me, without having to count.

    And, I don't think there's any need to get all technical about it, if you can hear it naturally. All this technical talk, is to try and help the people who can't hear it instinctively.

    Now, the hard bit it trying to highlight the accents we hear in the music, without distrupting the lead!
    Just to get technical for a moment, 1's very useful things to know, but did you not all 1's are created equal and this is especially the case in contempory music (8 bar turnaround) which is still most of the 4/4 time
    music we dance to

    In general terms Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus etc The 1st 1 of a new major phrase (8 bars) is very distinctive the 2nd (start of bar 3 ) usually quiet, the 3rd (bar 5 etc) is usually more pronounced but not as big as 1 and lastly the 4th 1 will quiet as it is resolving the phrase ready for the next the 1st 1 of a new major phrase.

    Because this generally accepted musical structure you will get the following: Breaks/stops (not so prevelent in contempory music) will generally happen on beat 5 not resolving till beat 1 of the next set of 8.
    Runs piano etc will be in sets of 8 starting on beat 1 of a minor phrase.
    Vocals, a lot modern music has the vocal highlight on the 5 again resolving at the 1.
    Lastly Hooks, again on the 5th beat and 1st of a set of 8 though usually slightly different musically.


    So what does it mean being an instinctive dancer: your brain picking out the patterns that exist by design, programmed response. Basically it just means you'd be good at IT

    I am sure the truly creative dancers among us seek to understand their world to be pro-active.

    Understanding why you do something is not a bad thing you know!
    Last edited by mikeyr; 20th-May-2008 at 12:16 PM. Reason: If the spelins bad or the grammer wrong tough I got work to do!

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Surely if there is 'no single way in which music has to be interpreted' then there can't be 'ones who are best at interpreting the music'
    It's an individual interpretation. There's no right way, that's why in dance competitions, every couple are dancing to the same track and different judges appreciate different interpretations. It would be impossible for two couples to dance identically in a competition. Even the same couple would be hard pressed to repeat a dance exactly the same. (Unless it's choroegraphed)

    A good choreographer could plot maybe 10 choreogaphed dances from one song.

    The sin is to dance the song through at the same beat all the way through, as Lost Leader says.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    Just to get technical for a moment, 1's very useful things to know, but did you not all 1's are created equal and this is especially the case in contempory music (8 bar turnaround) which is still most of the 4/4 time
    music we dance to

    In general terms Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus etc The 1st 1 of a new major phrase (8 bars) is very distinctive the 2nd (start of bar 3 ) usually quiet, the 3rd (bar 5 etc) is usually more pronounced but not as big as 1 and lastly the 4th 1 will quiet as it is resolving the phrase ready for the next the 1st 1 of a new major phrase.

    Because this generally accepted musical structure you will get the following: Breaks/stops (not so prevelent in contempory music) will generally happen on beat 5 not resolving till beat 1 of the next set of 8.
    Runs piano etc will be in sets of 8 starting on beat 1 of a minor phrase.
    Vocals, a lot modern music has the vocal highlight on the 5 again resolving at the 1.
    Lastly Hooks, again on the 5th beat and 1st of a set of 8 though usually slightly different musically.


    So what does it mean being an instinctive dancer: your brain picking out the patterns that exist by design, programmed response. Basically it just means you'd be good at IT

    I am sure the truly creative dancers among us seek to understand their world to be pro-active.

    Understanding why you do something is not a bad thing you know!
    Some leads totally open up a song for me, that previously I thought was a bit boring.

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    Re: Musicality

    Sorry about the novel; lots to reply to...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I think he was intentionally focusing on finding the '1' and marking it. You'd be amazed how many people have to work at finding the '1' and yet you need to know where it is to understand and play with all the rest of the structure of the music.
    No, I wouldn't be amazed. I was fortunate that the teacher who initial taught me was also a music teacher (thank you Lorna ). I used to challenge myself to find the "5-6-7-8" to coincide with her count. I think it really helped me start to listen to music structure rather than looking for the metronome to step to.

    But as you say, this is a requirement for the rest of the structure of music. I know Mario didn't know the grounding of any of the students; but for what was billed as an "advanced class", it covered the basics really well. {But perhaps that is the definition of advanced.}

    Mario did another class which was also on musicality...
    Yup - I did that one as well; I learned a couple of useful things from it. It was what made me want more from this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I think what was missing is just time.
    Good point - what he covered, he covered well. To get anything else in may have meant that the other stuff was skimmed.

    ~ I think the answer, obviously, is to do more classes. ~ I think he does three day long ‘intensives’ where what you are looking for is probably more likely to happen. My advice would be to bring a large spoon and doggy bag.
    You see Mario dancing and demoing and it's a huge chocolate gateaux with shavings curled over it. Then he says he'll teach you and brings out a chocolate muffin. Sure, you've got to start somewhere - but I had hoped that the 'somewhere' would be further down the line.

    (But he does make damn fine muffins )

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythm King View Post
    I have to disagree - when people learn Ceroc, they learn the moves first. ~ go to almost any MJ venue and people with even a little musicality stand out from the crowd.
    you started another thread about this - I've not read it yet, but I'll respond to that in there. Suffice to say that the whole point of dancing is that you are dancing to the music. The best accolade is to look like the music was scored for the dance rather than the dance is being danced to the music. You need to learn to hit the beat, then work your way up.

    Wrong again - I have video of him both leading and following at a Ceroc venue and I have had the pleasure of dancing MJ with Samantha Buckwalter.
    Glad to be proven wrong. While I have no doubt about his talents and ability to dance (Nor Sam's), I think MJ is still a foreign language to him and he has to translate it into swing - and translate it from swing out again to teach/dance MJ. I doubt there are many others who could actually do this at all or even attempt it. I'm sure his accent will not seem as foreign as he learns more of MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by tanjive View Post
    Funny I thought Ceroc was a brand name of MJ. So how can you "Cease being Ceroc and become MJ"?
    I can dance "Ceroc" and I can dance "MJ". The difference is quite subtle, but there is more "consistency" in Ceroc dancing - in the tempo, in the moves, in the 'elasticity' of the dance. Musicality can be applied, but it is within the framework of maintaining these elements.

    In MJ dancing, it's the music that dictates the tempo, the movements and the mood of the dance are dictated by the music with the only regard for "pattern" or "moves" being ones that match the music.
    You don't have to fit musicality into what you are doing: you have to work out what you are doing to fit in with musicality. Every dance style at the highest level does this - which is why most dance styles are defined by the music they are danced to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    As has been said, one of the problems is that many MJ teachers will put together a class routine, whether beginner or intermediate, and teach it during the class to whatever track the DJ happens to feel like playing at the time. ~ MJ can look reasonably good danced to a wide range of types and speeds of music is a strength (MJ is flexible and adaptable) but at the same time it is also a weakness in that teaching in this way can lead to some of the subtleties of musicality being overlooked and the potential to explore this is often consequently lost.
    I think there are exceptions to this as you pointed out, but as has been pointed out it's much easier to do things to a pattern. The pattern of learning the movements is a metronome. Start messing with that and the pattern gets disrupted as it's being learned - much harder.

    The reason that WCS seems to have more musicality in the beginning is that some clever person set the patterns up in 8 count segments that correspond to most music it's danced to. So instead of marching through a song like MJ, there is a 'natural' hit on every 8 count. Once you get past the 'marching' in MJ, you can hit whatever count you want. You can swim through the music without an anchor round your neck

    1. Do musicality classes.
    Yup. These will hep you find what to listen for in No2...
    2. Listen to the music
    Can't emphasise this enough. Once you listen you can find similarities between tracks and common things that you can use. Listen for various instruments in isolation, listen for when things enter or exit the flow, listen to the emphasis given to each area of the music, ... explore the music with every sense.
    3. Seek out venues and events where there are more opportunities to learn, practice or improve your musicality.
    Any dance is an event to practice/learn about musicality. If you can't find something within a track to express (no matter the speed, genre, etc.) then you are not listening to the right bits.
    4. Challenge yourself. ~ Get out of your dance comfort zone.
    ...but make sure you have an understanding partner. It's a partner dance: don't force them through hoops - if it doesn't feel nice, something is going wrong.
    5. Stop worrying about learning new moves.
    It's the first bit you should try and focus on: stop worrying. New moves are an opportunity to find new ways to screw up. Enjoy the mistakes and finding new ways to recover from them. You will find that most "new" moves are just a bunch of bits from moves you already know - nothing much to worry about and you already know the bits, so 'learning' them isn't that important.
    6. Try to relax more and "feel the music".
    The only thing you can do "wrong" is hurt your partner. Listen to a crooner. Hear when their lyrics start and end in relation to the count/beat.
    They flow with the music and the music flows around the vocals. You can apply that same style to your
    dancing: You don't have to hit every count/beat; you can be early/late with the movements and emphasis - as long as it's done with confidence, it looks good. Too many people hesitate, curse and swear, count every beat, count between breaks,... that they forget to enjoy the music. It's dancing. Have fun and sing along.
    7. Take cues from your partner.
    You have to think on the moves, lead them, care for your
    partner... they have more time to listen to the music - trust them. If you feel them slowing down, slow down. If they stop, frame them. As you get better connections with your partner, you learn to listen better to what they are doing through the connections.
    8. Watch and learn from other good dancers.
    Try and work out what makes them look good.
    For most I've found it's confidence and timing.
    9. Have a good look in your moves tool box.
    I wouldn't disregard any moves out of hand. I would concentrate on one you like and work out how to apply some "musicality" on each count: pose,
    extend, punch, smooth, switch, ... it's then quite easy to tie it in with the music.
    10. Don't be afraid to stop.
    Don't really agree with this - you should never 'stop' or even 'pause'. Sure, put an impact point in; but this is just marking a change from A to B. For dramatic influence, add some contrast between A and B. Fast=>Slow is the most common, but there are more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans View Post
    What's the difference (and/or relationship) between 'musicality' and '(creative) self-expression'? [new thread perchance??]
    Musicality is not self-expression: it's expression of the music. Self-expression within dance has no music.
    However if the music is part of self-expression, then the dance can be an accompaniment.
    Last edited by Gadget; 20th-May-2008 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Fix spacing from cut & paste

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    Re: Musicality

    I don't really have the time right now to dead through you're whole post but....
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    The reason that WCS seems to have more musicality in the beginning is that some clever person set the patterns up in 8 count segments that correspond to most music it's danced to. So instead of marching through a song like MJ, there is a 'natural' hit on every 8 count. Once you get past the 'marching' in MJ, you can hit whatever count you want. You can swim through the music without an anchor round your neck
    Which is true IF AND ONLY IF you choose to ignore every basic pattern in WCS apart from the whip.

    Honestly Gadget, I'm amazed you keep making claims like this. WCS is based on 6 AND 8 count patterns. You have debated in numberous threads where this has been mentioned.

    The dance is unphrased, which means you have to work* to fit your dance to the phrasing if you choose to do even a single 6 count pattern, or alter the length of an 8 count one. Or for that matter, do one with a count of 10, 12 or even higher.

    *Not that it really qualifies as work, but it doesn't happen by accident most of the time either

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Sorry about the novel; ~ Then follows long rambling post.
    Sorry but most of your post I really just dont understand what it is youre trying to say there

    The bits I do understand..... I think youre wrong!

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I don't really have the time right now to dead through you're whole post but....Which is true IF AND ONLY IF you choose to ignore every basic pattern in WCS apart from the whip.
    I know that there are 6 and 8 (and more) count patterns; just as I know hit's don't always happen on the 8 count. I was trying to big-up WCS as being intrinsically more tied in to the music. But if you're happy to say that it's just as musically ignorant as MJ I won't argue.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I know that there are 6 and 8 (and more) count patterns; just as I know hit's don't always happen on the 8 count.
    Actually, they usually happen on 1 or 5 of the 8
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    Re: Musicality

    Surely by definition something with less rules has more scope for expression and improvisation

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Surely by definition something with less rules has more scope for expression and improvisation


    If you are not obeying the rules of something you are doing something else.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post


    If you are not obeying the rules of something you are doing something else.
    You've got to learn the rules before you can forget the rules.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    If you are not obeying the rules of something you are doing something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    You've got to learn the rules before you can forget the rules.
    But on the other hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Barbossa
    Arrrr! They're more guidelines than actual rules!
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