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Thread: Musicality

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    Musicality

    I'm writing stuff down (typing anyway) to crystallise my thoughts on what I learned over the weekend. This is one thing that's been sticking in my tooth...
    Quote Originally Posted by Marioswingdaddy View Post
    Quick recap - Agogic accents occur at the beginning of each measure (bar) of music. Music tends to follow the "Question/Answer" method in which the first measure is the question with the second being the answer. As a result, the first measure normally has more accent due to the resolution of tension that exists in the second measure. To make a long story short...1 has more "juice" than 5.

    These accents should be noted in your dancing. The methods we used were 1. pointing or snapping of the fingers (be careful which finger you use) 2. changing your height 3. tapping out with whichever foot is available at the time, and 4. posing for a picture
    I'm sure that from a structured point of view, this is brilliant: you can add musicality and emphasise your music without having to disrupt your patterns.

    Only thing is that MJ does not have rigid patterns. Knowing the music structure and being able to mark it is basically what musicality is about. However, in MJ you have much more scope to do interesting things and movements because don't need to worry about where you are in a pattern when the accents occur. This is where your dancing ceases being "Ceroc" and becomes "MJ".

    I think that this is the "last step" that was missing from the workshop - and one that would be lost/irrelevant to the WCS dancers.

    To me, this felt like a fairly basic "intermediate" workshop in musicality - some nice nuances, well taught and delivered, well received...
    I've been on musicality workshops from Franck, Lorna, Amir, DavidB, CJ, and David & Val (that I can remember). Each had a different approach and angle on the same thing - listening and finding the structure within the music, then applying it to your dancing. I don't know what more Mario could have been said or done, but from someone who knows so much, teaches so well and dances even better I thought it just stopped short of it's promise.

    Are there any suggestions what could be missing? From either my perception or the workshop?

    (As far as I am aware, Mario has not been exposed to MJ/Ceroc before and I didn't get a chance to talk with him, so don't know his views to explore further.)

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Are there any suggestions what could be missing? From either my perception or the workshop?
    I think he was intentionally focusing on finding the '1' and marking it. You'd be amazed how many people have to work at finding the '1' and yet you need to know where it is to understand and play with all the rest of the structure of the music.

    Even if its as simple as starting the dance on 1. Ever seen a teacher count in the '5678' but it not actually be the 5678? (It does happen occasionally, and I'm not getting into 'Ceroc counts' here, just the simple part of that 8 being the 8 in the music, in dancer counts.)

    Mario did another class which was also on musicality though I think it was called something else and that including stuff about 'dancing smaller/quieter' when the music 'quieter' (not literally in terms of volume) and 'dancing bigger' when the music got 'bigger'. Completely applicable to MJ and takes a section of the music as a whole, rather than highlighting one instrument, breaks etc, but still going in a bit deeper than the overall style of the track - so when the music gets 'big' then big/snappy/spinny moves etc. Adding contrast to your dance in keeping with the contrast in the track. (At least that's how I understood that part of that class - others may have other comments.)

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    Are there any suggestions what could be missing? From either my perception or the workshop?
    I think what was missing is just time.

    What I thought was great about Mario's classes (from what I saw) was that they seemed to each cover a fairly small aspect of dance, but cover it thoroughly. (Syncopations that can replace a 'walk walk' for example.) This is harder than it seems since all aspects of dance are inter-related. And even harder when teaching such a varied level of students, and two different dances at the same time!

    What this kind of teaching means (as opposed to a moves based class, or a rambling touch on every subject type class) is that you leave really understanding a fundamental building block of your dancing. But it also means a bunch of other stuff is hardly mentioned. I think the answer, obviously, is to do more classes. Mario did three that I saw that in some way or another were Musicality classes, each thoroughly devouring a small slice of a large cake.

    The thing is, it probably takes quite a few slices before you start reaching the creamy rich chocolate centre. And at a weekender, with one hour classes and many students who have only just been given their fork, it might not happen.

    I think he does three day long ‘intensives’ where what you are looking for is probably more likely to happen. My advice would be to bring a large spoon and doggy bag.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    You'd be amazed how many people have to work at finding the '1' and
    I think I'm one of those.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Ever seen a teacher count in the '5678' but it not actually be the 5678?
    Yeah, one of my aerobics instructor does it all the time! ARGH!
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Yeah, one of my aerobics instructor does it all the time! ARGH!
    Lory,
    Did I dance with you at Blaze?
    I hope my timing wasn't too off.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Yeah, one of my aerobics instructor does it all the time! ARGH!
    Several Ceroc teachers in my area do the same. It drives me insane because to me it sounds completely wrong!

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Ever seen a teacher count in the '5678' but it not actually be the 5678? (It does happen occasionally, and I'm not getting into 'Ceroc counts' here, just the simple part of that 8 being the 8 in the music, in dancer counts.)
    I'll admit it's been a long time since my last ceroc class, but would the '5678' ever be on the 5,6,7,8 'dancer count' of the music ? At best, a 'ceroc count' 8 would be on a 'dancer count' 7, right ? (as the 'ceroc 5,6,7,8) would happen on a 'dancer count' 1, 3, 5, 7... if done right...
    Or am I still not understanding this (I'll just go shoot myself then, cause if not, there's no hope)

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    Lory,
    Did I dance with you at Blaze?
    I hope my timing wasn't too off.
    I'm sorry hun, I don't know I asked Sheena to point you out but she couldn't see you at the time but I danced with everyone who asked and I asked lots of people I've never danced with before, so maybe?

    You haven't got a profile pic, so I can't check

    Hey have a look at mine, then maybe you can tell me

    Anyway, I didn't have any terrible dances at all at Blaze, so if we did, your timing must have been Ok
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    (I'll just go shoot myself then, cause if not, there's no hope)
    I'll just go and get the gun for you!
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I'll admit it's been a long time since my last ceroc class, but would the '5678' ever be on the 5,6,7,8 'dancer count' of the music ? At best, a 'ceroc count' 8 would be on a 'dancer count' 7, right ? (as the 'ceroc 5,6,7,8) would happen on a 'dancer count' 1, 3, 5, 7... if done right...
    Or am I still not understanding this (I'll just go shoot myself then, cause if not, there's no hope)
    I'm maybe not explaining it very well. I just know I don't like starting the routine in class 'in the middle' (or worse still, on a break) but I don't count to find the '1', its just 'there'. It just 'feels wrong' where people put the 5678 in sometimes.

    I'm tired, its late and clearly I need to do a lot more musicality classes....

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    I'm sure that from a structured point of view, this is brilliant: you can add musicality and emphasise your music without having to disrupt your patterns.

    Only thing is that MJ does not have rigid patterns. Knowing the music structure and being able to mark it is basically what musicality is about. However, in MJ you have much more scope to do interesting things and movements because don't need to worry about where you are in a pattern when the accents occur. This is where your dancing ceases being "Ceroc" and becomes "MJ".

    I think that this is the "last step" that was missing from the workshop - and one that would be lost/irrelevant to the WCS dancers.
    .)
    I have to disagree - when people learn Ceroc, they learn the moves first. In fact a lot of Ceroc dancers never progress beyond this stage and many dancers simply collct these moves, or patterns and throw them into their dancing one after another. OK, so the MJ-ers break away from this to some extent, but go to almost any MJ venue and people with even a little musicality stannd out from the crowd. You miss the point that beginner WCS is much the same as beginner MJ, in as much that people learn the basic patterns to get a start in the dance, then move on from there. The difference is that musicality is taught from an earlier stage (or in a lot of cases - at all). Incidentally take an average MJ-er and an average Country (Line) dancer, and it's a no-brainer who would have better musicality, and it's not the MJ-er. The fault, I suggest, is your misunderstanding of other dance forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    (As far as I am aware, Mario has not been exposed to MJ/Ceroc before and I didn't get a chance to talk with him, so don't know his views to explore further.)
    Wrong again - I have video of him both leading and following at a Ceroc venue and I have had the pleasure of dancing MJ with Samantha Buckwalter.

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    I don't count to find the '1', its just 'there'. It just 'feels wrong' where people put the 5678 in sometimes.

    I'm tired, its late and clearly I need to do a lot more musicality classes....
    No, I know exactly what you mean, I feel it instinctively too, the '1' just shouts out at me, without having to count.

    And, I don't think there's any need to get all technical about it, if you can hear it naturally. All this technical talk, is to try and help the people who can't hear it instinctively.

    Now, the hard bit it trying to highlight the accents we hear in the music, without distrupting the lead!
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythm King View Post
    You miss the point that beginner WCS is much the same as beginner MJ, in as much that people learn the basic patterns to get a start in the dance, then move on from there.
    The biggest difference between the lessons taught in Ceroc and the lessons taught in WCS, is that nearly all the WCS lessons i've been to, the teacher choreographs the lesson to fit a phrase of music, whereas in Ceroc, they just teach 4 moves, which bear no relationship to the music.
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    the '1' just shouts out at me, without having to count.
    Wasn't this Mario's whole point - that the '1' has more 'juice' than the other counts hence the need to mark it in some way?

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    No, I know exactly what you mean, I feel it instinctively too, the '1' just shouts out at me, without having to count.

    And, I don't think there's any need to get all technical about it, if you can hear it naturally. All this technical talk, is to try and help the people who can't hear it instinctively.
    Thanks Lory, I find it hard to explain, I tend to just feel music but I'm aware its cos at some level I'm recognising patterns and structure, I'm just not consciously thinking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Now, the hard bit it trying to highlight the accents we hear in the music, without distrupting the lead!
    Definitely! (But worth it when it works!)

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    The biggest difference between the lessons taught in Ceroc and the lessons taught in WCS, is that nearly all the WCS lessons i've been to, the teacher choreographs the lesson to fit a phrase of music, whereas in Ceroc, they just teach 4 moves, which bear no relationship to the music.
    That's the lessons you're talking about, not the dances.

    Couldn't MJ be taught more more musicality from the start, and WCS with less?
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    ...... Mario did three that I saw that in some way or another were Musicality classes, each thoroughly devouring a small slice of a large cake.

    The thing is, it probably takes quite a few slices before you start reaching the creamy rich chocolate centre. And at a weekender, with one hour classes and many students who have only just been given their fork, it might not happen.

    I think he does three day long ‘intensives’ where what you are looking for is probably more likely to happen. My advice would be to bring a large spoon and doggy bag.
    mmmmm Cake based analogies I can really relate to (wonders if my dancing is moist enough or needs more cherries).

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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    Couldn't MJ be taught more more musicality from the start, and WCS with less?
    Of course!

    Why would you want it with less though
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    Re: Musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Only thing is that MJ does not have rigid patterns. Knowing the music structure and being able to mark it is basically what musicality is about. However, in MJ you have much more scope to do interesting things and movements because don't need to worry about where you are in a pattern when the accents occur. This is where your dancing ceases being "Ceroc" and becomes "MJ".
    Funny I thought Ceroc was a brand name of MJ. So how can you "Cease being Ceroc and become MJ"?

    From other points on the thread most dances are learnt starting with moves. Improvisation comes with understanding the concepts and how the partners move relative to each other re balance, weight, expectation etc. An understanding of music structure becomes prerequisite as well, which many do not have when they first start to dance. I know I had no music knowledge when beginning.

    I am fairly new to WCS, but have done MJ and tango for a long time now. From my experience dances that start quite rigid, rule like, "its done like this" such as tango and WCS most of the rules you learn change. You can do the basic but if you break that concept whole new movements are possible. Simple WCS example in sugar push the guys 3&4 triple can be replaced with a step to side as long as timing kept. The idea of replacing triples with a step at any point is possible it is matter of being musical and appropriate in breaking the basic move.

    Doing too much of any non standard footwork would eventually change the look of the dance. For me once the dance is unrecognisable it ceases to be that dance and is just a mash of MJ and WCS. It may or may not be good mostly not from the outside.

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