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Thread: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I started dancing in London in 1999, mostly at first with Ceroc. The style then, as taught by most of the teachers (including James Cronin, who founded Ceroc), was quite bouncy, and lacked connection (I don't think I heard the word connection in the first 5 years of dancing modern jive).

    Over the last few years, there has been a tendency in some areas, and with some teachers and dancers to move towards a more connected, smoother modern jive. This is definitely a minority still, although (hopefully) the numbers are growing.
    Considering the above, the discussion regarding feedback on bounciness at the champs this is taken from and some comments I’ve heard from dancers in the last few months regarding the difficulty they have dancing to faster music due to spending most of their time in the blues room, is MJ evolving into two separate styles?

    Is this a good or bad thing? Is it inevitable?

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    MJ seems to be a collection of many styles.
    The really good, natural dancers, can change style instantly to suit the music of the moment.
    I see this as miles away from two styles.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    MJ seems to be a collection of many styles.
    The really good, natural dancers, can change style instantly to suit the music of the moment.
    I see this as miles away from two styles.
    Absolutely true.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    MJ seems to be a collection of many styles.
    The really good, natural dancers, can change style instantly to suit the music of the moment.
    I see this as miles away from two styles.


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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    I disagree.... in the context of this discussion at least.

    There are some people who can change style to suit the music. However, the bouncy ones still do it in a bouncy style, and the smooth ones do it in a smooth style.

    I don't see any of the people that I consider to be smooth dancers, suddenly become bouncy, even if it's a 'bouncy' track. They may dance it in a different style, to reflect the music. However, it's still not a bouncy style. And vice versa.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Considering the above, the discussion regarding feedback on bounciness at the champs this is taken from and some comments I’ve heard from dancers in the last few months regarding the difficulty they have dancing to faster music due to spending most of their time in the blues room, is MJ evolving into two separate styles?

    Is this a good or bad thing? Is it inevitable?
    This is the deeper question I was asking in my thread, but it hasn't really been picked up on. (Andy McG put forward the same proposition a year or so back, that MJ is evolving into two dances.)

    I think that there may be two, mostly compatible, forms of MJ being practised in the UK at the moment.

    Most organisation teach what you might called "Trad" Modern Jive, but a few companies teach, and a few individuals end up dancing, a smoother form of dance which bears little resemblance to the traditional.

    It is a different dance? I'm not sure.

    Is MJ likely to evolve into two different dance forms? Almost definitely – it's only natural; just look at the history of jive & swing dancing over the last hundred years.

    Of course, currently the best dancers can adapt between MJ styles, but then, for example, the best swing dancers can adapt between different forms of swing dance fairly easily.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post

    There are some people who can change style to suit the music. However, the bouncy ones still do it in a bouncy style, and the smooth ones do it in a smooth style.

    I don't see any of the people that I consider to be smooth dancers, suddenly become bouncy, even if it's a 'bouncy' track. They may dance it in a different style, to reflect the music. However, it's still not a bouncy style. And vice versa.
    I can see this point, I favour smooth, to a faster song there is more "energy".

    I am wondering if the people who were told to be more bouncy, were not exibiting a lot of "energy" in the dance, and the judge was looking for "energy".

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Another question - which style finds it easiest to adapt to danicng with someone from the other? Does 'bouncy' win out?

    If the music says bouncy and the lead does bouncy, I sometimes just think, 'why not' and bounce along with them.

    Most of the time I probably just find to find a middle ground with keeping some of my own style. I recall a blues room dance once where I was trying to just follow smoothly as that was the sort of track it was and the lead bounced even more, clearly with a 'she's just not getting the beat here' thought in his head.

    Which makes me wonder if there is an element of finding it easier to be on the beat for some people if they somehow mark that in their dancing? (I don't just mean bouncing hands.) Other dance styles have basic footwork which is part of keeping the timing for people I guess?

    If so that might explain why some more experienced dancers are smoother - because they know where they are in the music and with the beat without having to 'keep time'?

    Just a few thoughts, I don't know the answers!

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Another question - which style finds it easiest to adapt to danicng with someone from the other? Does 'bouncy' win out?
    The leader should win out, if the follower is capable of switching. If the follower is incapable of switching, the leader should lead what the follower is comfortable with.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    The leader should win out, if the follower is capable of switching. If the follower is incapable of switching, the leader should lead what the follower is comfortable with.
    Many leads are not capable of adapting to the follow though

    I think that Lynn was asking which style was easier for an experienced follow to adapt to though, which is slightly different. I guess that if a follower just has a bouncy style, then adapting to a smoother style would just feel weird (on a single dance).

    But since I would guess that most follows are used to dancing with bouncy leads as there are so many about, it shouldn't be too difficult for them to adapt - even if they don't want to.

    Personally, I'm not so bothered by a bit of bounciness, so long as it's in time to the music. But there are some leads who are bouncing along to the song in their own head, rather than the one that the DJ is playing I do my best, but usually struggle...

    How many on here would admit to being a bit bouncy when they first started out, but have smoothed out later on?

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    There are 2 distinct bounces - the hand and the body.

    The hand bounce is fairly common in other styles - traditional rock'n'roll being the example I usually think of. There are a number of reasons why it is used - to mark the time of the music, to get a connection. However the main reason people do it is because other people do it.

    I don't think a bouncing hand is a lead to the lady to bounce up and down - any more than raising the hand for a turn is also a lead for her to levitate. All it does is make her have to distinguish between the bounce and the lead, and that usually ends up with the lead being bigger and more forceful.

    The body bounce comes from 2 sources - the music and the leg action. It can feel good to raise your body up on the longer beats (1,3,5,7) and drop down on the sharper beats (2,4,6,8). It is actually a form of musical interpretation, but is also an example of what feels good doesn't necessarily look good. There are other ways of marking this difference in beats without bouncing, and they look far better.

    Finally most MJers don't use their core, hips, ankles and feet all that much when they dance. They only use their knees. You need to use everything to get a good level action. Just using 20% will not give the same effect.

    I'm not sure if the hand bounce and body bounce are always linked, as the hand bounce is often twice the speed of the body bounce. However I see a lot of people who do both, so maybe there is a link.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    It can feel good to raise your body up on the longer beats (1,3,5,7) and drop down on the sharper beats (2,4,6,8).
    Really? Personally, I'd find this phenomenally difficult - stepping back on 1 and raising your body up, for example... (just tried what you describe, and either I'm misunderstanding you, or it feels profoundly weird, and very hard to do) Are there any youtube clips (or the like) showing this?

    A swing (lindy) pulse is something a bit different - it's a pulse down into the floor, and it's on every single beat. Much easier (imho) to achieve, and feels / looks very smooooooth when done properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Finally most MJers don't use their core, hips, ankles and feet all that much when they dance. They only use their knees. You need to use everything to get a good level action. Just using 20% will not give the same effect.
    Plus - it can be very hard on the knees to constantly bounce with knees only - one is using them to absorb all one's weight, rather than spreading the load.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    The leader should win out, if the follower is capable of switching. If the follower is incapable of switching, the leader should lead what the follower is comfortable with.
    Always? I tend to still follow in a smoother style even if the leader is leading 'bouncy'. Sometimes cos the music is smooth and sometimes just cos I'm tired and don't have the energy to bounce.

    I don't mean I battle against the old 'hand bounce' - if they want to bounce my arms around I'll let them (mostly). To do anything else just confuses the leader.

    And of course if its 'bouncy' music that is different.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I disagree.... in the context of this discussion at least.

    There are some people who can change style to suit the music. However, the bouncy ones still do it in a bouncy style, and the smooth ones do it in a smooth style.

    I don't see any of the people that I consider to be smooth dancers, suddenly become bouncy, even if it's a 'bouncy' track. They may dance it in a different style, to reflect the music. However, it's still not a bouncy style. And vice versa.
    I disagree with your disagreement


    I think part of the problem in the use of the word bouncy. It's entered general use amongst a certain type of dancer to refer in a derogatory way to people who arn't smooth.
    But IMO that's not really correct.
    The opposite of smooth is not bounce, it's something like jerky.
    Smooth and bouncy are far from mutually exclusive. There are styles of Lindy Hop where extremely bouncy excellent dancers are extremely smooth. The same with Ballroom Jive.

    In the context of this discussion and talking simplistically to make the point, I think if it's latin music, most good dancers would add something to the hip wriggle. If it's true swing music, then most good dancers would add a swung eighth. Likewise, if it's bouncy thump thump music most good dancers would add a little bounce to their dance.
    I see it all the time when Blues room dancers grace us with their presence in the main room at weekenders The good ones dance bouncier to the bouncier music, albeit not by much sometimes.

    I guess you can sum it up as 'feeling the music'.

    However, yes, there is still an underlying skill level that affects things like jerkiness.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 7th-May-2008 at 05:16 PM.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    (Andy McG put forward the same proposition a year or so back, that MJ is evolving into two dances.)
    I've always been ahead of my time. It's a curse - look at the smoking debate, I said it, was shot down in flames for it, now everyone does what I recommended

    Just so I can stay ahead, I now think there are 3 dances

    1. Bouncy
    2. Smooth
    3. Wobbly - LeRoc as taught in Bristol with ladies left foot on beat 1 weight change followed by kicky, twisty, skippety correction.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Likewise, if it's bouncy thump thump music most good dancers would add a little bounce to their dance.
    No thanks. Guess that means that I'm not a good dancer then!

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Just a point. It's not necessary to bounce at all when dancing at speed.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    No thanks. Guess that means that I'm not a good dancer then!
    I know your an alright dancer

    What do you do with bouncy music then ? Or funky music, or latin music then ?
    Just continue the same style you'd use with a real smooth song like Marvin and Miles ?

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    3. Wobbly - LeRoc as taught in Bristol with ladies left foot on beat 1 weight change followed by kicky, twisty, skippety correction.
    If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - you're exaggerating, Andy! There's no skippity kicky stuff! Does this mean I have to dance with you again sometime to demonstrate?

    FWIW - I do the same as Lynn - for similar reasons.

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    Re: Bouncy versus smooth - two styles or two dances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    What do you do with bouncy music then ? Or funky music, or latin music then ?
    Just continue the same style you'd use with a real smooth song like Marvin and Miles ?
    Nope. I dance them in a smooth, non-bouncy funky or latin, or whatever, style.

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