Is Modern Jive meant to be bouncy?

[ducasi]

Based on these comments from the Ceroc Champs thread...

I don't strictly dance Ceroc, i dance modern jive and for the entree to the competition i believe it says 66percent of dancing should be modern jive, so why is it that me and my partner were knocked out for not being bouncy enough during the intermediate quater finals? Surely being bouncy is just a style of dancing? Music can be open to many different types of interpretation and therefore if one couple interprets it differently to the rest of the heat should they be knocked out for being too bouncy? or should they be put through for being different?

[...]

A judge said to me to be more bouncy with the arms, where i dance if you bounce the arms you are effectivly telling your partner to jump up and down.....

[...] told we were a bit too smooth

I find these comments astonishing. Ceroc is not taught with bouncy arms where I am from.

I don't want this discussion to dwell on the differences between what people think "Ceroc" is, and what "Modern Jive" is. Ceroc is quite clear than the dance that they teach is called Modern Jive, so can we skip that one?

I've done a few competitions at an intermediate level, and in the Lucky Dip, etc. Should I learn to be a bouncier dancer to do better in future competitions?

What do people think? Can you be too smooth? Does it stop being Modern Jive if you don't bounce a little?

Can someone tell me the dance I am doing if it's not Modern Jive?

[robd]

I don't know Danicus118 so have no idea of their style but to be starting a thread based on one person's recollection of what a judge, who may have had to evaluate up to 20 other couples in a heat, had said may be a little premature. It may have been that Danicus was hyper extended in the arms a lot and that bounciness was suggested along a horizontal rather than vertical plane to soften this. Equally it may not have been, it may have been that judge's preference as their MJ aesthetic.

As for whether MJ is meant to be bouncy or not, I am not sure that MJ is meant to be anything given the lack of formal structure. Smooth, non-bouncy seems to be the current vogue but certainly video clips of earlier years display a lot of bounce in the dancing.

[JiveLad]

Hmmmm....who were these people - who were saying there was a need to be more bouncy?

Can someone be more specific?

--------------

As far as I have been taught from the people that I trust (eg. John Sweeney who produced the 'bible' (imho) DVD 'The Ultimate Guide to Smooth jiving') smooth is better than bouncy.

As John says in his DVD - exactly as Danicus118 says - if you bounce your arms up and down, you are inviting your follow to jump........



(The occasional bounce is quite fun though...........).

[David Franklin]

What do people think? Can you be too smooth? Does it stop being Modern Jive if you don't bounce a little?

It might be uncool to say it, but I think the 'bounce' adds a certain energy to MJ dancing. I'm not saying you can't add energy in other ways, and the more advanced dancers usually do. But at the intermediate level, I think losing the bounce can make it look like you're just going through the motions, and a bouncy couple next to you will look much more enthusiastic and enjoying the dancing.

(My suspicion is that the smooth couple will usually be more fun to dance with, but that's not what's being judged).

[ducasi]

I don't know Danicus118 so have no idea of their style but to be starting a thread based on one person's recollection of what a judge [...]

It was two people's recollection.

Hmmmm....who were these people - who were saying there was a need to be more bouncy?

Can someone be more specific?

It appears that both Danicus118 and DD+ were told by a judge (or judges?) at the Ceroc Champs on Sunday that their dancing was too smooth in the competition.

The implication was that either by not being bouncy, they weren't good enough, or simply that you're not doing Modern Jive if you don't bounce.

[Red Lory]

I'm so bouncy I look like a rubber ball! It's silly but it's fun

[DD+]

If i understood it correctly and hopefully someone will agree - by saying smooth they are actually meaning kinda "flat" that the dance looks one dimensional - by using different speeds and snappy moves, using different heights ie. rondes, lunges, spare arm etc you can start to make it look more 3 dimensional.

Hope that kind of makes sense - thats what i thought it was anyway as it is something that we have recently started to work on

[Minnie M]

If i understood it correctly and hopefully someone will agree - by saying smooth they are actually meaning kinda "flat" that the dance looks one dimensional - by using different speeds and snappy moves, using different heights ie. rondes, lunges, spare arm etc you can start to make it look more 3 dimensional.

Hope that kind of makes sense - thats what i thought it was anyway as it is something that we have recently started to work on

Yep I think that IS what they mean - BTW bouncing also comes from that little skippy thing some dancers have.

As a spectator (I hardly danced) I saw 95% of the competition & dancing - not sure who Danicus is, but there were a couple of leads who were just doing moves in the Intermediate and also the Lucky Dip, well executed but with very little musicality (if that is the right term for 'movement' in this case)

PS:
I thought DD+ and Paul danced really well, and was surprised they never got to the finals, so I'm not sure what the judges were looking for

[Danicus118]

If i understood it correctly and hopefully someone will agree - by saying smooth they are actually meaning kinda "flat" that the dance looks one dimensional - by using different speeds and snappy moves, using different heights ie. rondes, lunges, spare arm etc you can start to make it look more 3 dimensional.

I mean smooth in the way that i wasn't jumping up and down all the time like the judge seemed to expect. You can be a smooth dancer and add lunges and breaks, snappy can be incorperated into smooth....

I am big fan of snappy, different speeds and believe i incoperated them within the dancing, just think that some ceroc judges expect everyone to be jumping to the ceiling even with tracks like Michael Buble Everything, just because a rubbish clubby beat was added over the top doesnt mean that i should jump to the ceiling does it? I enjoy being a smooth dancer and am always willing to interpret music in different ways, clearly i was just to different for the judge....

[DD+]

I totally agree with you Danicus118 myself and paul are very far off being bouncy - we are often asked if we do west coast (we dont) as we are quite smooth and connected (i think so anyway) As you say its what the judges on the day are looking for - in their eyes we were not good enough for the final - well not this time anyway - but rest assured we will keep trying!

[Danicus118]

The question is if you competed the same with different judges watching would you have got further? One thing i noticed is that ceroc were very secretive about who was judging and i think it would have been more helpful to know... What do you guys think?

[DD+]

I dont know is the honest answer - and will never know! We have made the finals before tho in other comps - obviously just missing something tho

Ceroc london champ never seem to publish their judges prior to the day - god know why????

[MartinHarper]

Should I learn to be a bouncier dancer to do better in future competitions?

I think you'd do better asking people for feedback on your dancing, rather than trying to apply the feedback Danicus and DD+ remember receiving on their dancing, particularly given that the pressures of competition may have distorted those memories.

To answer the title question, Modern Jive can be danced with or without vertical bounce. However, horizontal bounce powers the "accordion motion" that is characteristic of the dance, so some of that would seem to be good.

[Andy McGregor]

Ceroc london champ never seem to publish their judgesprior to the day - god know why????

Something to hide, perhaps?

In my experience Ceroc will not tell you how they judge their competitions and will not tell you who their judges are. Their argument is that they've spent a lot of time and money devloping their judging method and will not give it away.

Please feel free to PM me to get the judging method for Britrock. I wrote it in my own time. It was a great effort and I'm quite happy for anyone to read it and use it in their own competition. And, if you need an adjudicator, I'm available to help. My fee is the same as it is for Britrock - I do it for free because I love it

[Danicus118]

I think you'd do better asking people for feedback on your dancing, rather than trying to apply the feedback Danicus and DD+ remember receiving on their dancing, particularly given that the pressures of competition may have distorted those memories.

No my memories were not distorted seeing as me writing the thread and recieving the feedback was within 24 hours of each other....
i know what a judge said to me, and am sure DD+ knows what a judge said to her....

Sorry to be so rude, but who are you to tell me that my memories are distorted?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Sorry to be so rude, but who are you to tell me that my memories are distorted?

He didnt, he said MAY. Its a sensible warning against all 2nd hand information - only you and the judge were there and we only have your interpretation of what the judge said and our guesses on what they actually meant i.e. it may have applied to you and you alone.

And yes, you are rude Next time, don't apologise - just don't be rude

[TA Guy]

"Whether MJ is mean't to be bouncy"

I assume here we're talking some form of vertical bounce because there must be horizontal bounce in the elasticity.

There is always vertical bounce too. Even smooth dancers should have some bounce in the knees even if it is very little. At the very least it's part of the absorption of energy. The question is, how much vertical bounce ?

Surely that depends on the music ?

I would not dream of dancing the same way to 'Pretty Woman' as I do to 'Marvin and Miles'. If the music has a bouncy feel, then your dancing should reflect that in some way. That's basic musicality 101 isn't it ?

So my argument would be it depends entirely on the music.

Sometimes you do have to remind the 'smooth is the only right way to dance MJ' merchants that others have a different view

[robd]

I totally agree with you Danicus118 myself and paul are very far off being bouncy - we are often asked if we do west coast (we dont) as we are quite smooth and connected (i think so anyway) As you say its what the judges on the day are looking for - in their eyes we were not good enough for the final - well not this time anyway - but rest assured we will keep trying!

I remember Paul dancing with Anita (the other member of the DT trio not the Open finalist) in the intermediate semi at Britrock '06. Both myself and Sparkles thought they were the smoothest, most musical couple in the category yet they didn't make finals. Can't say it was a right or wrong decision as I don't know the judging criteria for the day but I certainly thought they were much more accomplished dancers than the couple that actually won that category that year.

[Little Em]

I mean smooth in the way that i wasn't jumping up and down all the time like the judge seemed to expect. You can be a smooth dancer and add lunges and breaks, snappy can be incorperated into smooth....

I am big fan of snappy, different speeds and believe i incoperated them within the dancing, just think that some ceroc judges expect everyone to be jumping to the ceiling even with tracks like Michael Buble Everything, just because a rubbish clubby beat was added over the top doesnt mean that i should jump to the ceiling does it? I enjoy being a smooth dancer and am always willing to interpret music in different ways, clearly i was just to different for the judge....

I would like to think that NO ceroc judges would expect bounce to the ceiling dancing!! I have not judged at the London Champs before, but I do know several teachers that have, and bouncing is certainly not a requirement.

It would be interesting to have the said judges opinion as I find it so hard to believe that they said that to you (BTW im not calling you a liar I am questioning the judges true opinion.)

I personally would much rather people danced to the music, which would mean dancing differently to fast/slow and so on. IMO.

Judging is so difficult, as the judges on the day may like something one couple do and other people like something else. I think we all know how judging works and accept it.

I think in this case, more detailed feedback would have been beneficial.

[TheTramp]

I started dancing in London in 1999, mostly at first with Ceroc. The style then, as taught by most of the teachers (including James Cronin, who founded Ceroc), was quite bouncy, and lacked connection (I don't think I heard the word connection in the first 5 years of dancing modern jive).

Over the last few years, there has been a tendency in some areas, and with some teachers and dancers to move towards a more connected, smoother modern jive. This is definitely a minority still, although (hopefully) the numbers are growing.

There are still plenty of modern jive teachers who both dance, and teach, a more bouncy style (and yes, that includes within Scotland too Ducasi). Maybe these teachers and people are behind the times. Or maybe that's how they see modern jive as it should be danced. I'd say that they are definitely in the majority still. So, maybe it's the people who want a smoother, more connected modern jive that are 'wrong'. Or maybe, modern jive can be both.

I know which type of style I prefer of course!