Which foot takes the weight in a dip?

[gebandemuishond]

It came to my attention a while back that I have a different opinion to most people I've spoken to about what the leader should do with their feet in a dip. (I'm talking about a fairly standard dip e.g. from first move/mambo whatever, the leader brings his left hand towards his left shoulder, bringing his partner in to his left hand side and supporting her with his right hand).

As I 'descend', I have my weight on my left foot, which bends, while my right foot extends out to my right to create a nice line with the follower's body. This way, the foot closest to my partner's centre of gravity has all my weight on it throughout the dip.

But everyone who I've spoken to about dips claims the correct way is to have the weight on the right foot initially, then step to the left and transfer the weight. The right foot would then be in the graceful line out to the side. My problem with this is that it requires me to change my weight at the same time as lowering my partner, meaning I don't have support for her while she is going down.

What do you guys think?

Dan

[martingold]

But everyone who I've spoken to about dips claims the correct way is to have the weight on the right foot initially, then step to the left and transfer the weight. The right foot would then be in the graceful line out to the side. My problem with this is that it requires me to change my weight at the same time as lowering my partner, meaning I don't have support for her while she is going down.

What do you guys think?

Dan

when you are taught dips and drops in any workshop you should be taught that the follow supports their own weight
I often do the ballroom drop where it does get to a point where my follow cant support her own weight but my center of gravity is equally spread between my legs and i am in an "A" frame position

[Steven666]

For follows:

The inside leg for pwrettiness.

Failing that, the stronger leg.

Failing that, both legs (will look a bit crap).

Failing that, just walk backwards avoiding it.

For leads:

Transfer to left leg, THEN lower into drop/lower. Not all at the same time. THEN raise. THEN transfer back to right (probably anyway, but I ain't a teacher).

Failing that, at speed, create a follower shaped splodge on the floor by doing both.

[Astro]

when you are taught dips and drops in any workshop you should be taught that the follow supports their own weight
I often do the ballroom drop where it does get to a point where my follow cant support her own weight but my center of gravity is equally spread between my legs and i am in an "A" frame position

I thought it was bad practice to make the follow support his/her own weight?

[Steven666]

I thought it was bad practice to make the follow support his/her own weight?

Isn't it bad practice for the follower to assume that the lead will take their wait?

[Lee Bartholomew]

I thought it was bad practice to make the follow support his/her own weight?

Quite the opposite, The follow should always take their own weight esp if social dancing.

If the follow does not take their own weight it would become a drop rather than a dip.

Of course leaders can take some of the weight if they wish but this should be up to the leaders, follows should never expect it.

Likewise leaders should always allow the follows to take their own weight rather than just take the follows weight for them. This gives the follow no control at all and will eventually end in done in backs or heads hitting floors.

Better solution still, dont do drops or dips with dancers you dont practise them with.

[Astro]

Isn't it bad practice for the follower to assume that the lead will take their wait?

I though it was supposed to be shared 50/50.

Though some leads boast they can take all the follow's weight as long as she/he is as stiff as a board.

ps thought we were taking about drops and dips.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I though it was supposed to be shared 50/50.

Though some leads boast they can take all the follow's weight as long as she/he is as stiff as a board.

Yeah some leads can. These are the leads that have been dancing a few months and think throwing a woman to the floor then 'saving her' from hitting the floor is cool. These are the same men that most women try to avoid dancing with.

[Astro]

Yeah some leads can. These are the leads that have been dancing a few months and think throwing a woman to the floor then 'saving her' from hitting the floor is cool. These are the same men that most women try to avoid dancing with.

That's why I avoid drops and dips, I've learnt the hard way.

[Agente Secreto]

On feet, I have mine shoulder width apart and static when I'm dipping and dropping. The thought of my centre of gravity shifting just as my partners does is too worrying for comfort so like Steven666 says better to get the feet placed early. On some deeper drops i do end up moving my weight towards the 'far' leg as the lady goes down, following the iron board principle that the centre of the follow changes position as she heads towards the horizontal.

On the weight thing, as Scotty says in Star Trek 'ye canna change the laws of physics'. It is correct practice for the follow to take all of their own weight in a dip, however, as the follow leans further back you get to the point where the centre of mass goes outside the feet and the lead must start to take some of the follow's weight. e.g. in the ballroom drop the follow's weight is supported by their own feet at one end of the body and the lead's arms at the other end. Unless the follow practises levitation there is not way for them to support all of their own weight if they end up horizontal.

However, to pick up on the messages from the other posts, such moves should only be done between consenting partners, and follows should keep these only to leads they trust implicitly

[dep]

Hi,
I don't do any drops, for fear of dropping my Partner.
I have been taught a variety of seducers/dips, but have abandoned them all except one, due the the fact that the Follower can extend her head and/or arms back forcing the combined centre of gravity outside my base and then the drop becomes inevitable.

If the Follower were to ALWAYS support her own weight without exception then I could probably relearn those dozen or so dips/seducers.
But with a few Followers the risk is there of the move becoming dangerous and I have had sufficient accidents to not want any more.

The one exception is a deep drop I use but only with more experienced Followers and in this I do support all of the weight of my partner. The move is designed to be safe to allow this, even with a Follower who is both taller and slightly heavier than myself.

I reiterate previous advice.
In social dancing the Follower should always support her own weight and protect her head in event of a fall.
Only when The Follower & Leader have become accustomed to each other, should the next "shared weight" stage be taken.

[gebandemuishond]

For leads:

Transfer to left leg, THEN lower into drop/lower. Not all at the same time. THEN raise. THEN transfer back to right (probably anyway, but I ain't a teacher).

On feet, I have mine shoulder width apart and static when I'm dipping and dropping. The thought of my centre of gravity shifting just as my partners does is too worrying for comfort so like Steven666 says better to get the feet placed early.

So I'm not alone in thinking its better to have the leader's weight over their left foot before the dip, and presumably extending the right leg to make it look pretty. So why then have teachers taught the "get the lady into your arms, then step (lunge) to your left and hope you find your footing correctly in order catch her if she happens to throw her weight into the dip"?

I guess the title was a little ambiguous, I was coming at it from a leader's point of view, but it's interesting to see the comments about where the follower's weight should be.

Dan

[David Franklin]

On some deeper drops i do end up moving my weight towards the 'far' leg as the lady goes down, following the iron board principle that the centre of the follow changes position as she heads towards the horizontal.

Note that it's not the center of the follow that's the issue, it's the "support point" that you are lifting her from.

(e.g. Suppose you imagine a 6 foot follower who stays rigid as a board, and drops so that her center is directly between your feet. When she is near horizontal, her shoulders will be about 24 inches further left. If that's where you're supporting her, and she's heavy enough, she will pull you over).

On the weight thing, as Scotty says in Star Trek 'ye canna change the laws of physics'. It is correct practice for the follow to take all of their own weight in a dip, however, as the follow leans further back you get to the point where the centre of mass goes outside the feet and the lead must start to take some of the follow's weight. e.g. in the ballroom drop the follow's weight is supported by their own feet at one end of the body and the lead's arms at the other end.

Contrary to what I said above, in most drops the follower does not act like a rigid board, and the ballroom drop is no exception. Instead, of the feet being at one end of the body, the follow's supporting leg bends at the knee with the foot staying relatively close to the follow's center. This means that she is able to take far more of her own weight than your scenario suggests. I've certainly known follows I could comfortably drop while using only one finger (note we did NOT try this on a dance floor, crowded or otherwise!). And in fact:

Unless the follow practises levitation there is not way for them to support all of their own weight if they end up horizontal.

I've heard of follows who can actually do this, though I've not seen it myself. (I think you also need a pretty good backbend if you want to do this and get right to the ground).

[NZ Monkey]

Contrary to what I said above, in most drops the follower does not act like a rigid board, and the ballroom drop is no exception. Instead, of the feet being at one end of the body, the follow's supporting leg bends at the knee with the foot staying relatively close to the follow's center. This means that she is able to take far more of her own weight than your scenario suggests. I've certainly known follows I could comfortably drop while using only one finger (note we did NOT try this on a dance floor, crowded or otherwise!).

One of the most overlooked points in drops is that the rather than toppling tike a tree trunk, the follower should actually slide her foot forward as she tilts back.

At the lowest point in the drop her centre of mass should be just over or very close to that “standing” foot, with much her weight being supported directly through the foot. She’s essentially sitting on her own heel as it’s risen off the ground. This makes the followers feel much lighter in the drop, and allows then to aid in the exit by pushing up from the pelvis easier. I’ve dropped a number of ….erm…..rather large ladies, who have felt lighter than some of their waif-like counterparts because they’ve had to learn how to do this properly.

[JCB]

...the follower should actually slide her foot forward as she tilts back.

...hence, when a leader transfers his weight to his left foot after starting the dip, he is also more likely to move to his left. To bear my own weight, I have to slide in the opposite direction. To me, it feels more secure if the leader follows that slight movement to his right, with minimal support, rather than drag me to his left, and stoically supporting a fair proportion of my weight. Easier on my knee as well!

[David Franklin]

...hence, when a leader transfers his weight to his left foot after starting the dip, he is also more likely to move to his left. To bear my own weight, I have to slide in the opposite direction.

Your foot may slide in the other direction, but that's not what matters to the leader - he's not holding you up by your foot.

Here's what I would expect the follower to do in a drop(*):

The supporting foot (usually the right foot) stays planted.
The supporting leg bends, with the follower's hips going down approximately vertically. You need not drop as low as possible, but if you were to, you'd end up almost 'sitting' on the heel of the supporting foot.
The other leg isn't really taking any weight, and so is free to slide across to the right (and it has to, if it's not going to bend).

So if you only look from the waist down, yes, there's a shift to the right.

But at the same time, the upper body is moving in the opposite direction, often ending up fully extended over to the left. And the leader is normally supporting the follower by an attachment to her upper body, so the support point ends up moving to the left, not the right.

Repeating myself, it's the position of the support point that matters to the leader, not the position of the follow's center.

(*) I'm explicitly talking about drops, where the leader is taking significant amounts of the follow's weight.

[Steven666]

I know it's a lean but what's the logistics for the Stokie Slide?

[JCB]

...But at the same time, the upper body is moving in the opposite direction, often ending up fully extended over to the left. And the leader is normally supporting the follower by an attachment to her upper body, so the support point ends up moving to the left, not the right.

Oops! You are right (of course! I can't lead) : the leader is moving to his left. (strange that is not what it feels like to me - a matter of the point of view I have as the follower deceiving me, I guess)
I am going to re-iterate too, but correct myself along the way. I think I have a valid point buried amidst the ignorance. Followers are always urged to bear their own weight as much as possible, but sometimes that becomes very difficult. Again, I am speaking from my perspective as a (not very experienced) follower, so any help to weed out the true source of the problem will be welcome.
The secure feeling results when I can keep the weight-bearing foot beneath me. I have to flex my ankle, (quite a bit if it is a drop). My thighs stay parallel, or nearly so. It feels like I am moving straight down, or even slightly to the (leader's) right. To contrast, if I get the feeling I am being dragged to the left, my supporting leg gets stretched out, my ankle extends, the knee on the supporting leg points upward, rather than following the line of the extended leg, and at that point it is awkward or impossible for me to reposition my supporting foot beneath me.
I can't lead, so I am guessing that the problem comes when the leader moves too far to the left, and pulls the follower to his left? Sorry about my earlier misconception!
It is bizarre that such a slight difference in technique can result in such different experiences. I have thoroughly enjoyed a scrumptious drop that put me close to ground level, but I felt safely cradled all the way down, with my supporting leg tucked beneath me, just as you described. But I have also been thrown into a First Move Seducer (supposedly a mild dip) when the leader lunged enthusiastically to his left, and I felt more like a coalsack slung under his arm, both my feet left behind in the rush.

[ChrisB]

Dip - Follower takes the weight
Seducer - Weight shared
Drop - Lead takes the weight

Thats how I learnt it anyway

[Steven666]

I was put into a drop going a few inches from the floor and tried to take my own weight of which I did. It just hurt my knee a bit on the way up.