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Thread: Time to Quit ?

  1. #61
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    {Just as a side-note, I have often heard it bantered about that the best dancers don't follow the rules: in WCS they can get rid of the anchor, they can break the 4/6/8 patterns, they can lead/follow off the slot... so if they do that then, according to 'popular opinion' they are no longer dancing WCS. What are they dancing?}
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Have you ever taken a WCS class Gadget? Did you not listen to the teachers explaining what an anchour is and why it's used at the end of every pattern? Perhaps you simply jumped straight into freestyle and then wondered why it felt different from MJ and the followers wern't doing what you expected them to do?
    I've taken some classes, I've watched lots of people dancing it, I've danced with many WCS followers of differing levels from dance godesses to newbies.

    I think your confusion lies in assuming that I actually want to lead WCS or that I was talking about leading WCS dancers in a WCS dance. - Why would I if I'm not in a WCS environment? Just because I can lead in a slot, I can walk with my partner and get out of their way, I can listen and dance to the music, and I can lead patterns does not mean I am dancing WCS - it means that I can lead and I can dance.
    It's the problem with multi-discipline dance events: If you're used to dancing in one style and someone dances with you in another, are you doing it wrong, or are they?

    My problem lies with the followers not following, but anticipating and expecting me to be leading them in WCS patterns and observing the "anchor" rule...I can lead it and if I was dancing WCS I would lead it. From the sounds of it, Chef would lead it too, but isn't getting the chance.

    From what I know of leading and how I expect a follower to follow my lead, I can apply this knowledge to the anchor within WCS:
    - The 'anchor' settles the follower back; this changes the dynamics of the connection with the follower moving their body/frame back a fraction without moving the relative position of the feet. If this movement is not compensated in their connected hand (/arm), then it 'tugs' the lead. Followers can use this shifting of the frame to build the tension without tugging, leads can anticipate the action and apply the tension themselves.
    - There is the matter of timing within the lead (& follow). The follower normally moves off of an anchor a breath later than most other counts within the dance. Leads can end up tugging at their partner or feeling them dragging at them to wait until the follower is ready.

    I know how it's done. I know how it looks. But I don't want to bounce on a trampoline (building up the tension to go through a pattern in the air and land again to build up and release into another pattern...). I want to fly.

  2. #62
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    My problem lies with the followers not following, but anticipating and expecting me to be leading them in WCS patterns and observing the "anchor" rule...
    Why are these followers thinking you are leading WCS if you are leading slotted MJ? If you are not leading basic WCS moves like sugar push, whip etc, why do they suddenly start putting in an anchor? Anchoring in MJ would surely take up extra time not expected by the lead and the follower could end up pulled off balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ....observing the "anchor" rule...I can lead it and if I was dancing WCS I would lead it. From the sounds of it, Chef would lead it too, but isn't getting the chance.
    Isn't the anchor part of the framework of WCS though? I can drop the 'anchor step' as in not triple at the end of the slot, but I'll still settle my weight back, keep the timing and end up ready to step forward on the '1' of the next count. Its part of the structure and timing of the dance. Its there to build up the tension and is what gives the WCS 'feel'.

    Is the anchor led? You say you can lead it - how do you lead it?

    And I don't think Chef was talking about not leading the anchor rather that some followers were having too much tension on their anchor and almost moving him down the slot.

  3. #63
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    J&T have the view that an anchor step is defined as to when the centre of balance moves behind the front foot, which means that both partners are moving into opposition and building the tension in the connection that is needed to lead the next pattern.

    Even when you learn from the very top teachers that are giving instruction from the very highest level you will come across something that you have highlighted yourself. It is a point of 'view'. West Coast Swing is in the midst of a debate at the moment on what an ancor step is and represents. I have been learning with interest what is been said and written in the Swing community from every level in America for some time now. On my visits to America I have had the chance to discuss these issues face to face.

    There are some teachers both here and abroad will tell you that what they teach is their 'view'. I think the best advice I have been given is that what they teach is a framework from where you base your dance.

    You can mix and match what you choose to base your framework on. It is like mixing and matching the style in the way we dress. We may see something that someone is wearing and decide that it is something that we would like to wear. We may not wear it in the same combination but in a combination of our own choosing.

    Reading your response Chef I can see that you have learnt quite alot. Listen to many points of view and it can be like having a conversation with multiple people at the same time. It can be confusing and frustrating. In the end you may not hear fully even what one person has to say.

    There are some wonderful teachers in the UK that you can learn WCS from. I myself have chosen to learn from the best in this country and overseas. It does take time to find out what works for you and for me has been very rewarding.

    Personally I have found private tuition has helped alot. This has been the way of all the best dancers including the professionals that I respect. If it helps I recommend you choose a very specific route on the style on concept that you wish to learn from. Keep that at your core of learning. You can listen to what others may have to say but only as an interesting comparison to what you have decided to subscribe to. Again it does take time. Nothing worth having normally does...


    Good luck Chef and don't stop...

  4. #64
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    You can extend or cut off patterns if you choose, but you can't do that at the point where you'd normally anchour.
    In some places in West Coast a lead can choose to extend a pattern rather than lead an anchor. The examples I've seen have the lead choosing between leading a turning anchor and leading an extension of some form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    It's the problem with multi-discipline dance events: If you're used to dancing in one style and someone dances with you in another, are you doing it wrong, or are they?
    You're both wrong, and funny, for trying to dance together without either:
    a) agreeing on a style of dance up front, or:
    b) having the relevant skills to be able to lead/follow dance style selection.

  5. #65
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    With my MJ abilities, I can dance better with more people to a greater range of music than with my WCS abilities, why should I learn any more WCS? *That's* what I'm missing.
    It's a valid question. One answer is relating to musicality, which I think you find important. As has been noted, often people end up dancing in the same overall style regardless of the style of music. In other words, while we become adept at marking breaks and accents in our dancing, we struggle to capture the "big picture" feeling of a song.

    Learning multiple dances, and learning the transitions between them, is one way to deal with that problem. By choosing between West Coast, Modern Jive, Lindy, "blues", and whatever other dances I may learn, I can make the "big picture" changes in my dancing to reflect "big picture" changes in the music. This works between songs, and also within songs. For example, I might dance West Coast to the verses, and Modern to the chorus. If my follower knows Modern Jive, I can choose to dance it with or without a West Coast influence.

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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    I’m only a beginner in WCS, so I offer my opinion very tentatively, but from my limited experience when the anchor isn’t working it throws everything else out, and I have observed in my own dancing that both sides not stepping the anchor properly seems to be the major difference in feel between having a good WCS dance and a dodgy one (that’s assuming that you aren’t trying to go like the clappers and you are doing moves that you both are reasonably familiar with or can lead/follow).

    If, as a follow, you attempt to anchor on your “7-and-8” or whatever, but the lead ‘turns ceroc’ and pulls you forward on your “and” count (presumably because you have stepped back), then you are out with the music and off-balance besides. You end up trying to fudge so you can follow the pattern they are already leading you into, which tends to be distracting and also means that you know you can’t use your ‘anchor time’ to do something more creative, because clearly you are going to be pulled off it mid-move.

    If you try to anchor but the lead comes towards you, it goes pear-shaped again. In class when you are stepping through moves you know that is that person’s version of an anchor so you can try to compensate for it, but in freestyle it becomes impossible to tell whether they are trying to extend the pattern or do actually want to anchor. It messes up the start of the next pattern, and again, you lose the communication of what you are both trying to do.

    When leading the same thing can happen - if the follow doesn’t anchor properly but comes forward then the pattern doesn’t close properly, the weight isn’t right, the tension isn’t right, and it messes up the start of the next pattern – as the lead you can’t tell if they think they have been led forward or are still mid-triple step. I haven’t yet figured out how to stabilise an approaching anchor, so to speak! ….Hold at arm’s length with barge pole?? Use a chair, like a lion tamer??

    In ceroc I don't think this would matter because it could be absorbed, but it seems to me you can’t combine to step a definite rhythm together properly in WCS unless you can communicate that rhythm to each other and co-ordinate the end of the last pattern and the start of the new one. So it seems to me that getting the anchor right between lead and follow is fundamental, regardless of what else happens or how the dance might sink or swim mid-pattern.

    Alternatively, when the anchor IS working on both sides, I find that the whole lead or follow of the pattern becomes instantly clearer, and there is no need to get hung up on counting because the rhythm happens almost organically if you are feeling the music, and the anchor (on a good day!) turns into less of a conscious triple step and more of a well-timed change of direction that fits the music without you having to think about it too much.

    I would be very happy to accept constructive criticism from forumites if I have completely got the wrong end of the stick with this. As I say, I haven’t been doing WCS very long, so advice and guidance gratefully received.

  7. #67
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    By choosing between West Coast, Modern Jive, Lindy, "blues", and whatever other dances I may learn, I can make the "big picture" changes in my dancing to reflect "big picture" changes in the music. This works between songs, and also within songs.
    Which is what makes dancing with you so much fun.

  8. #68
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    In some places in West Coast a lead can choose to extend a pattern rather than lead an anchor. The examples I've seen have the lead choosing between leading a turning anchor and leading an extension of some form.
    Yeah, but the extensions are usually* obvious before your partner has started anchouring. In a six count pattern for instance, you're leading your extention on the 4 or 4&a, and before you've given them a post to anchor against. The normal anchor would happen on a 5, but you've led them to do something else before then instead. This is different from throwing them to the end of the slot and then telling them on the 5 that you want them to do something other than anchor.


    You're both wrong, and funny, for trying to dance together without either:
    a) agreeing on a style of dance up front, or:
    b) having the relevant skills to be able to lead/follow dance style selection.



    *I say usually because I can't claim to know everything about the dance.

  9. #69
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    From what I know of leading and how I expect a follower to follow my lead, I can apply this knowledge to the anchor within WCS:
    - The 'anchor' settles the follower back; this changes the dynamics of the connection with the follower moving their body/frame back a fraction without moving the relative position of the feet. If this movement is not compensated in their connected hand (/arm), then it 'tugs' the lead. Followers can use this shifting of the frame to build the tension without tugging, leads can anticipate the action and apply the tension themselves.
    - There is the matter of timing within the lead (& follow). The follower normally moves off of an anchor a breath later than most other counts within the dance. Leads can end up tugging at their partner or feeling them dragging at them to wait until the follower is ready.

    I know how it's done. I know how it looks. But I don't want to bounce on a trampoline (building up the tension to go through a pattern in the air and land again to build up and release into another pattern...). I want to fly.
    Your understanding is, IMO, flawed Gadget.

    -There shouldn't be any compensation in the arm, from either party. Aside from the effort required to simply hold it up, there is very little engaement in the arm at all. You can get away with thinking about it as a rope. Additionally, it isn't just the follower who settles their weight back on the anchor - it's both partners. The follower is just the one who had to move to get the point where they can settle back. Because it's a smooth motion generated from the dancers centre and absorbed in the lats there should be no tugging at all, just a build in connection. It's very hard to do something that feels shovey or tuggy without resorting to using your arms independently of your body.

    - If the lead is doing any tugging or the follower feels like she's draging then it's almost always because the leader is trying to move sharply and late, or just plain too early. I disagree that the follower should be later on the 1 than on other beats. She should really be slightly behind the beat the whole time to help create the elastic look and feel of WCS, although thats a fine point and not one I'd spend a lot of time worrying about for quite a while. The reason you may think that is because it's much more obvious looking on the anchor though.

    Most of the mainstream teachers I've seen from the West Coast have their followers virtually at the end of the slot between 4 and 4&a, which means they stay almost in one place on their anchor. That can give the impression of delaying longer, but if you pay close attention to the count I don't think you'll find they hold back any longer on the 1 than any other count.

  10. #70
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Your understanding is, IMO, flawed Gadget.

    Most of the mainstream teachers I've seen from the West Coast have their followers virtually at the end of the slot between 4 and 4&a, which means they stay almost in one place on their anchor. That can give the impression of delaying longer, but if you pay close attention to the count I don't think you'll find they hold back any longer on the 1 than any other count.
    Interesting...I am not saying either method is right or wrong, but recent workshops with Paul & Cat and Kyle & Sarah concentrated on the follower travelling on the anchor and not arriving at the end of the slot until count six. It certainly seems to look and feel more stylish and adheres to that old trend of the lady making the man wait.

  11. #71
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    not much time to reply to all - I'm in sunny san diego in the apple store after all (getting familiar with it, you know, before I buy one in a few min) but this makes me cringe too much to hold it any longer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    - The 'anchor' settles the follower back; this changes the dynamics of the connection with the follower moving their body/frame back a fraction without moving the relative position of the feet. If this movement is not compensated in their connected hand (/arm), then it 'tugs' the lead. Followers can use this shifting of the frame to build the tension without tugging, leads can anticipate the action and apply the tension themselves.
    - There is the matter of timing within the lead (& follow). The follower normally moves off of an anchor a breath later than most other counts within the dance. Leads can end up tugging at their partner or feeling them dragging at them to wait until the follower is ready.

    I know how it's done. I know how it looks. But I don't want to bounce on a trampoline (building up the tension to go through a pattern in the air and land again to build up and release into another pattern...). I want to fly.
    You're confusing tug with elasticity Gadget here, unless you've only been dancing with very inexperienced wcs followers.
    There's no compensation in the arm when the center moves back, and when it's nicely done it creates elasticity that makes you fly through the dance

    You know how it's done, hey ?

  12. #72
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    ... with very inexperienced wcs followers.
    ...
    You know how it's done, hey ?
    Very inexperienced is a relative thing. It may be the majority are very inexperienced in your world.

    Virtually everyone is very inexperienced compared to professional dancers. But most people are not going to dance like professional dancers, or even with with professional dancers.

    That doesn't invalidate observations / experiences dancing with more typical dancers.

  13. #73
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarfoot View Post
    Interesting...I am not saying either method is right or wrong, but recent workshops with Paul & Cat and Kyle & Sarah concentrated on the follower travelling on the anchor and not arriving at the end of the slot until count six. It certainly seems to look and feel more stylish and adheres to that old trend of the lady making the man wait.
    Yes, they teach it differently. It's one of those silly religious wars on a small scale in some circles. Either way works and for what it's worth - I prefer the way Cat and Paul teach it as well. You can't actually feel the difference in the connection between the two if both are done properly, although I think the mainstream way is probably easier to teach.

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