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Thread: Time to Quit ?

  1. #21
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Leader View Post
    (Sigh) Look, I know we haven't danced for absolutely ages Helen but fear not, I have plenty of MJ "stuff" to excite you with when we do finally end up at the same venue - but it aint exactly technical
    Oh don't you worry, I still enjoy all the other "stuff"

    See you at Southport

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Time to Quit ?

    WCS... I keep trying. It's like a wall. If I keep running at it hard enough then maybe I will bust through it. I kept beating myself up about WCS because I am monumentally cr@p at it, but at the same time love the musicality and fluidity of it and want it so much. I just get over excited. With all the best will in the world, I get a nice open and a couple of sugar pushes into my dance and suddenly I get this urge to just ... dance the music, not to count it.

    What straightened me out was a comment that was made to me about WCS.
    "West Coast Swing is above all else, a social dance."

    Smile, if you're having fun and your follow is having fun then that trumps all the syncopation and eight beat patterns of a couple who are technically fantastic but not having fun together. Have fun, the rest will come - and if it doesn't *shrug* you had fun anyway. It's only a dance, nobody is going to get leukemia because you forgot to triple-step.

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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    It's only a dance, nobody is going to get leukemia because you forgot to triple-step.

    But they might never ever ask me to dance again and that would be so, so much worse! Flounce, sigh.

  4. #24
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    However it is not the first time I have heard it - and this is possibly why WCS didn't make it the first time round when I first learnt. Is it because newbie Westies are often saturated by 'patterns' and syncopations which you have to learn thoroughly and unfortunately they often don't come easy.
    I had the impression it was the other way around when compared with modern jive.

    Lots and lots of technique and relatively few patterns.

    Technique is all well and good, but if you spend a lot of effort on technique and cannot be sure you've learnt the right technique that is a problem.

    Aren't both patterns (other than the very few basic moves) and syncopations fairly much optional, so why would you have to learn them thoroughly ?

  5. #25
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    Duncan, you're a very competent dancer and as far as WCS is concerned you don't appear to be missing anything, you're doing it fine as far as I saw when you tried it out at Graham's but what you did do was the very common thing of bringing your Ceroc into the WCS class with you. [...]
    Thanks. It's not that I had a big problem *doing* the dance, at least as taught; it was that I never felt I had the same freedom of expression while dancing WCS as I do when dancing MJ.

    This is probably mostly because I am still a relative beginner at WCS, I don't know that many patterns, and I don't have the confidence or ability to adapt the patterns I do know into new ones. Added to that, I have a difficulty in expressing musicality in WCS.

    So, with my MJ abilities, I can dance better with more people to a greater range of music than with my WCS abilities, why should I learn any more WCS? *That's* what I'm missing.

    To be honest, the biggest attraction for me in WCS is a few dancers who I maybe don't see as often, or get a chance to dance with as often. Is that a good reason to learn a dance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    I sincerely hope I haven't upset too many people with this post [...]
    You've not upset me anyway.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  6. #26
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ............ did I put WCS on the thread title ??? Don't remember doing so, I meant the thread to relate to generally giving up, just used Chef's post as an example


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  7. #27
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ............ did I put WCS on the thread title ??? Don't remember doing so, I meant the thread to relate to generally giving up, just used Chef's post as an example
    No, WCS wasn't there when I first saw the thread, but as the replies are primarily about WCS it is probably too late to bring it back on track.

  8. #28
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    I too struggle with WCS, but that is because it is being taught too technically and I am not sure if I want to dance like that anyway. If you check out Tessa and Miles you will notice all this step step triple step goes out the window. Okay, they do get to anchor, but it is a much more relaxed style. It is all about confidence and hearing the music. Forget about counting and whether it is a 6, 8 or 12 beat pattern. In this country watch Paul Warden freestyle and take notice of his foot work. He is amazing, but he is not dancing the way that he teaches. I just want to be confident in WCS, I don't want to get up to competition standard. Anyway, whatever I pick up will hopefully improve my jive. As things stand there are no local classes at the moment, so I am giving it a rest.

  9. #29
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ............ did I put WCS on the thread title ??? Don't remember doing so, I meant the thread to relate to generally giving up, just used Chef's post as an example
    No, I added it, as the thread was turning into a more general discussion of WCS, and I thought that clarifying that in the title would bring more people to the discussion. As it was, I was expecting a more open discussion, or one specifically about Modern Jive.

    Hope you don't mind.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  10. #30
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I just get over excited. With all the best will in the world, I get a nice open and a couple of sugar pushes into my dance and suddenly I get this urge to just ... dance the music, not to count it.
    I don't count in WCS anymore, I just spent a lot of time at home doing the basics by myself to a range of WCS music and got the 'feel' for the timing so my feet can get on and do their own thing without me worrying about it.

    The big drawback to that is I now occasionally sing along in WCS (like I do in MJ). Not loudly of course. I really must stop doing that.

    I guess the lead has to still count though, eg to know when maybe to put an 8 beat move in to fit the music somewhere... but when I hear the music needing an extra couple of beats I just do something at the end of the slot - that works with my regular WCS partner but I wouldn't do that with someone I don't know.

    Its all the other things that I get frustrated with, all the technique - despite trying to learn via DVD and practice at home I really need regular classes to work on technique and build it week by week and that just isn't possible.

    So, have a go and have fun is the only way for me!
    Last edited by Lynn; 29th-April-2008 at 10:36 AM.

  11. #31
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoArtist View Post
    <snip. He is amazing, but he is not dancing the way that he teaches. <snip>
    Taking this one point. This was something that bugged me and some others when I was first learning.

    The teacher was a good teacher. The thing was, when he danced with someone he wanted to dance with, he went off into a different world, and never taught us that world.

    At the time, I thought what he did when he went off in his own world was brilliant (from my perspective of what I knew), that brilliance was never passed on...

  12. #32
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    As a new teacher of WCS, I am finding this thread very interesting.

    Chef is right in that most of the top WCS teachers teach the ‘technique’ of the basics differently. As already mentioned by others on the thread, I found this to be equally true in Tango & Salsa. This is problematic for beginner’s who are looking for exact answers on “how to do it”. For this reason it is probably best to learn the basics from one teacher. Once you feel comfortable you can look at other possibilities.



    As long as the timing is correct and the lead reasonably confident there is no exact way “to do it”.

    I recently had a dancer tell me that the way I taught a basic whip in a class was slightly different to how they were taught by another teacher. I then led his partner through 4 slight variations on a basic whip all of which she followed perfectly. Each variation gave a slightly different feel, but none could be said to be wrong as they all got the job done.

    Some teachers demand that their students copy them exactly. This can lead to limitations. I believe a good teacher should help you find the dancer in you.

    Don’t give up Chef. Don’t let the technical mask put you off. Put a bit of you into the dance instead & have fun. When you stop smiling...read this little ditty...


    Choose to have fun
    Fun creates enjoyment
    Enjoyment invites participation
    Participation focuses attention
    Attention expands awareness
    Awareness promotes insight
    Insight generates knowledge
    Knowledge facilitates action
    Action yields results!
    But remember…it all starts with fun.

  13. #33
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Very interesting thread and probably expains why the WCS at Camber was for me anyway totally different to the WCS at Southport

    Any links where WCS is 'happening around the country' ?

    I might give it another go but things like this must put people of even giving it a go. Is WCS the hardest dance to learn ? (those that have done Tango/Salsa etc care to comment ?)

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post

    This is frustrating at times I agree. To take two examples from this weekend
    1. The hand grip - In pretty much all my UK classes the 'pistol' grip has been advocated. J&T advocated a different hand grip and specifically mentioned the pistol grip as being 'different'. I don't know if they would describe it as 'wrong' as such but definitely not favoured by them. Tatiana also spent a fair time in my lesson with her talking about hand-hold and the importance of it to the connection.
    2. Prepping on '1' - I have pretty much always been taught not to prep on '1' but to lead direction/length instead. Yet in the session covering sweethearts and folds Jordan mentioned very specifically that it was a double prep. I guess sometimes this issue gets confused by those whose preps are unnecessarily huge and sweeping but that's a separate issue to whether a prep on '1' is favoured or not.
    There are more examples of variations in teaching but these two came to mind quickly. However, as frustrating as I find this, I am coming to terms with the fact that there is no one, specific 'correct' way to do these things - different teahcers have different preferences and I just try to take what I can from each one that works for me when dancing socially.

    I hope not. UK WCS needs more leaders not fewer.

  14. #34
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    I'm replying to Chef's post here (from the J&T in blisworth thread) and will shortly post a review of the weekend in the appropriate thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Freestyles are, at my current ability level, quite a trial for me and I feel I I am not able to deliver a well lead, smooth and musically interpretive dance for followers.
    I have danced with you this weekend Chef and I very much enjoyed the dance. You lead very well and smoothly, and that already makes the dance very enjoyable (I think you don't realise how few smooth leaders there are). We all could improve on musicality, even Jordan said that and that's what keeps him going. So that part shouldn't be seen as a frustration but rather as the constant challenge that keeps us entertained... and the more you dance, the more able you will become at adding more and more musicality.

    FWIW it's something that I think we all work on all the time, and even if a leader leads me through breaks I still enjoy the dance because it pushes me to explore new ways of adding interpretation within my following - as Tatiana explained during the weekend.

    As a follow my job is probably easier with regards to the fact that I don't have to think of patterns, hence I'm happy to bring the musicality bits in dances with less experienced people. In fact that's the understatement of the year because I absolutely love it - to me this is what wcs is about.

    You may rather have root canal surgery than dancing with me , but if you're in the room, you're on my list of 'people I must get a dance with' and I will look out for you to ask you for a dance (you're warned now).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    The accomplished followers on the scene are putting in their syncopations as I lead my basic moves and the whole thing leaves me confused and unsure as to wether they are finished and I should lead or just wait until they give me a quizzical look of "are you going to lead something".
    Don't worry about your follower's footwork - that's entirely her responsibility. I'm with Rob on this, if she's giving you connection and is not obviously unable to move forward (the only case I can think of is splits), you can lead her forward (as long as you lead on a downbeat). Don't even worry which foot she's on, she'll sort herself out. Sometimes I'm not even squared up to my lead (then I'll use your lead to square myself up), or I have my left feet crossed in front of the right (I'll tap behind and triple as I come forward)- that's all part of the game, it adds syncopations and it's fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I try to learn what one set of teachers tell me and get it into my bones and then a new set of pros come over from america and I am supposed to unlearn everything and learn it over again in the new way. Having to learn and unlearn stuff 9 times over is getting me fed up.
    I agree with you this is utterly frustrating. We have to accept that there are fundamentals to the dance (i.e. compression in a sugar push, resistance at the anchor, some sort of preps for turns), on which everybody agrees, and then there are different ways to produce those fundamentals.

    J&T and Kyle and Sarah have probably 2 of the most different ways to achieving those fundamentals. Yet they dance together (Kyle and Tat, Jordan and Sarah) all the time in Strictly comps and love it - they simply adapt to each other. I specifically asked Jordan about the 'both absorb in the elbow' thing in the sugar push (Sarah teaches girls to maintain their frame at all times) and that's what he said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I really think it is time for me to accept defeat.
    Don't you dare ! Unless you decide the dance is too complicated for you and it just isn't fun anymore. If you still think that there is potential for fun in WCS please Chef don't give up



    Just a word on the 'prep on 2 vs prep on 1 and 2' debate: I think a lot of teachers in this country try to teach the 'prep on 2 only' technique as a way to counteract those awful, huge double preps we get from leads with MJ background. Jordan's double prep are nothing like that: they are merely a result of him opening up his body down the slot and generating momentum from there. They feel great

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post

    Just a word on the 'prep on 2 vs prep on 1 and 2' debate: I think a lot of teachers in this country try to teach the 'prep on 2 only' technique as a way to counteract those awful, huge double preps we get from leads with MJ background. Jordan's double prep are nothing like that: they are merely a result of him opening up his body down the slot and generating momentum from there. They feel great
    I like the 'only prep on 2' teaching, as I've found that lot's of men over do it so much when they double prep, that it just looks and feels naff! But, as you say, when Jordan does it, its so understated that you hardly notice it at all!

    ............................................

    I think much of the problem we face in WCS, is that we're constantly dancing with people of different abilities and stages of progress, so some of the 'ideals' have to go out of the window, to make the dance work....

    I had a lesson with Jordan yesterday, and he told me to 'let my arm out more' on the 6 and drop the tension. But then I said to him, yes, this works with you but half the men I dance with don't know how to anchor properly and follow me down the slot or a variant of 'other' things that aren't quite right... What do I do then?

    So he answered honestly and said, you have to make a decision (as they do with every dance, depending if they're in teaching mode or social mode) as to whether you constantly compensate for your partner, which makes 'them' feel good and enjoy the dance (but never progress, thinking that they are OK, cos they can 'do it' with you) or whether you dance properly, highlighting the problem, which makes them feel bad. (and makes them feel like 'your' a bad dancer)

    When we're inexperienced, we can't tell if the problem is 'our' fault or our partners but as we become more experienced, we find ways of making it work, compensating for common problems (leads who come from an MJ background, usually have the same inherent faults) and we come across them so often, that we find ways to adjust to them. Which reinforces that the way they're leading is OK.

    He was completely sympathetic to the problem but said for him, its best to teach aiming for the optimum, to know what to do correctly when dancing with a partner who's dancing correctly!

    He also added that every partnership will need a certain amount of compromise and some dances, even between top dancers, will feel better than others, depending if you click or not.

    Personal style, is also extremely subjective... it definitely isn't just a case of 'one size fits all'. You have to take the bits that suit 'you' and be happy with them!

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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    You may rather have root canal surgery than dancing with me , but if you're in the room, you're on my list of 'people I must get a dance with' and I will look out for you to ask you for a dance (you're warned now).
    I had hoped to maintain a dignified silence after being surprised at the amount of posts that my comment had raised but the above I cannot let stand as it is.

    I told Caro that I reached the point where I saw all the women standing in the Marquee waiting for someone to dance with and wondered if I should ask soemone to dance with me. I said that I faced the prospect of dancing with anyone at that point with the same dread that I saved for root canal surgery. That dread was not specific to Caro, it was my dread of trying to lead anyone.

    Since I am now going to post I thought I would prepare the following (isn't cut and paste from Word wonderful)



    I did not intend that my comment about accepting defeat over WCS should provoke so much discussion. I would like to clarify my feelings about a large number of points that people have made but I can’t handle all the multi quoting that would be required to answer everybody. Some people have said nice things to me on the forum and by PM and I thank them for that.

    1). I must make it clear that I don’t want to put anyone else off trying WCS. Just because I find it difficult and frustrating doesn’t mean you will. You will need to find out for yourself. My journey isn’t your journey.

    2) I know that WCS, like many other dances, has a multitude of layers of technicality and would require a degree of application and persistence to achieve results. Doing two degrees and 5 marathons have taught me about application and persistence and that you value less those things that you find easy to achieve. I also know that at some point in an endeavour you ask yourself “why am I doing this” and that if you don’t know that answer then carrying on can be very difficult. I am at that point and I don’t have a ready answer.

    3) In all the things that I have struggled to achieve before the only person to suffer from my lack of progress has been myself. In WCS my partner also suffers, sometimes badly. I find that WCS is not at all tolerant of even tiny errors. One slip or moment of confusion can take a long time for the pair of you to recover from within this dance.

    4) I am getting the idea that I should lead when I want to lead (as long as it is on a down beat) and it is down to the follow to sort out her footwork. For all I know she could be side on to the slot, or have her right foot crossed behind her left and I have to believe that she is doing that intentionally and at that point my lead down the slot is what she has planned for in order to pull her out of the position.

    5) There comes a point in trying to do anything that you find difficult (others may find it a complete breeze) where you have to dig in and be persistent. Beyond that your efforts can seem courageous. Beyond that it can seem funny or sad. Beyond even that ones efforts can feel tragic. Tragedy is the point I reached over this weekend. It is this feeling that made me decide that I should just accept that I am defeated.

    6) I am pretty sure that the “highly experienced” followers that I had trouble with are also highly capable based upon the way that they danced with other highly experienced and capable leads. I therefore believe that the difficulty I was having with them was entirely due to my inability to recognise a suitable point to lead while being hypnotised by their footwork. I did find a few of them gave so much tension in the connection during the anchor that I was being physically dragged down the slot during the anchor. My attempts to get my weight well on my back foot after setting my post often resulted with my fingers not having enough strength to maintain the hook required for connection. Other people can dance with them very effectively but I cannot. It is a problem of mine not theirs.

    7) At the moment I don’t know what path there is for me in WCS in the future or even if there is one. All I can say is that the journey was interesting.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    No, I added it, as the thread was turning into a more general discussion of WCS, and I thought that clarifying that in the title would bring more people to the discussion. As it was, I was expecting a more open discussion, or one specifically about Modern Jive.

    Hope you don't mind.
    I actually didn't want it to be WCS specific I personally want to be POSITIVE about the dance, and by changing the title it gives a different impression - could you please take it off - thanks xxx


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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    My poor man (Chef) is feeling very despondant but I know a number of people's posts of respect and encouragement have heartened him.

    Going back to being a beginner when you have reached a reasonable level in some other dance form is frustrating and it feels very intimidating to dance with those who are more advanced.

    As I did when learning to jive, as a follower I measure myself against the level of lead I can follow and try to test myself by going slightly (but not completely- unless by mistake) out of my depth with a more advanced leader. However it takes a huge amount of courage to ask for a dance when your confidence is low .

    If that advanced leader is more interested in doing every complicated move they know, I feel embarrassed, unhappy, lost and ready to give up completely.

    In WCS more advanced followers may also intimidate the lead by too much 'clever' footwork or by high jacking the lead. -(I think Tat tended to disapprove of highjacking).

    So although Caro says:
    Don't worry about your follower's footwork - that's entirely her responsibility. -- if she's giving you connection and is not obviously unable to move forward (the only case I can think of is splits), you can lead her forward (as long as you lead on a downbeat). Don't even worry which foot she's on, she'll sort herself out. Sometimes I'm not even squared up to my lead (then I'll use your lead to square myself up), or I have my left feet crossed in front of the right (I'll tap behind and triple as I come forward)- that's all part of the game, it adds syncopations and it's fun.
    I think there is a point where a lead or a follower should try to taylor the level of the dance to approproximately the level of the person they are dancing with.

    One teacher described to me how he measured the feel of the follower throughout the dance and increased the level of complexity as the dance went on according to how each move was responded to. Followers can also assess how far to take their improvisations so as not to confuse a leader.

    To encourage beginners to progress a patient and encouraging approach will win every time.

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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    6) I am pretty sure that the “highly experienced” followers that I had trouble with are also highly capable based upon the way that they danced with other highly experienced and capable leads. ~ I did find a few of them gave so much tension in the connection during the anchor that I was being physically dragged down the slot during the anchor.
    This is the main bit I dislike about WCS - the follower's don't follow. They will do an anchor. And these were the "highly experienced" followers.
    ...I am beginning to suspect that these people may be "core intermediate" equivalent of MJ: not necessarily good, but experienced enough to know the patterns and assume that if you are not leading them properly you must have intended to and therefore will follow the pattern rather than the lead.

    Good followers would adapt to your timing (as long as it's within the music's timing and the WCS framework) and not anchor you along with themselves.

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    Re: Time to Quit WCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Commis Chef View Post
    My poor man (Chef) is feeling very despondant but I know a number of people's posts of respect and encouragement have heartened him.

    Going back to being a beginner when you have reached a reasonable level in some other dance form is frustrating and it feels very intimidating to dance with those who are more advanced.

    As I did when learning to jive, as a follower I measure myself against the level of lead I can follow and try to test myself by going slightly (but not completely- unless by mistake) out of my depth with a more advanced leader. However it takes a huge amount of courage to ask for a dance when your confidence is low .

    If that advanced leader is more interested in doing every complicated move they know, I feel embarrassed, unhappy, lost and ready to give up completely.

    In WCS more advanced followers may also intimidate the lead by too much 'clever' footwork or by high jacking the lead. -(I think Tat tended to disapprove of highjacking).

    So although Caro says:


    I think there is a point where a lead or a follower should try to taylor the level of the dance to approproximately the level of the person they are dancing with.

    One teacher described to me how he measured the feel of the follower throughout the dance and increased the level of complexity as the dance went on according to how each move was responded to. Followers can also assess how far to take their improvisations so as not to confuse a leader.

    To encourage beginners to progress a patient and encouraging approach will win every time.
    Intelligent and spot on comments… I agree with both Caro & Commis Chef despite their different viewpoints. Despite being a teacher of other forms of dance, when I first started WCS I found the fancy extra footwork that some of the better followers used very off putting. I am sure that was not their intention. They were probably just trying to make a dance out of it or sometimes trying to show me how good they are. As I progressed a little more I found the same actions helped and encouraged me to play a little more and relax into the dance. I guess it takes a little sensitivity to get the mix right. Regardless of ability, a good follower should allow a beginner/improver to warm up with his basics then add a little extra, constantly monitoring the reaction.



    Lory is a great example of a follower with these skills that somehow empowers newbie leads. I have since found others just as helpful.

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