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Thread: Leading help

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Leading help

    I'm new to leading and have come across a problem...

    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers

    I've had this happen a couple of times now.
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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers
    Lose your grip, I would imagine? (I like to be helpful!)

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    (A Curly Little Flower)

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm new to leading and have come across a problem...

    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers

    I've had this happen a couple of times now.
    First, check that they have tips on their fingers.

    Next suggest they eat the crusts on their bread 'cos it helps the fingers to curl, as well as the hair.

    Finally, if all else fails, gently move the inside of your hand over the back of her fingertips in a calm and reassuring manner anchoring the position with a smile.



    Never noticed it myself.........if I get a 'non-curler' then I guess we might lose contact now and again. That's fine - then we go into muggle dancing. All part of the Joy of Dance.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm new to leading and have come across a problem...

    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers

    I've had this happen a couple of times now.
    Put a gentle thumb lock () on them just strong enough to maintain the grip.

    Otherwise you would need to stop the dance and explain they should have their hands like hooks etc...

    Only use the thumb lock for the danger moments when they might escape your grip, otherwise they'll notice and nag you about having a thumb lock on.

    Even with gentle thumb locks followers still escape all the time, especially on moves like the basket.
    Last edited by DundeeDancer; 25th-April-2008 at 12:22 PM.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Put a gentle thumb lock () on them just strong enough to maintain the grip.
    Like this...


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    Re: Leading help

    Like everyone, I use the hook at least some of the time and I think I can truly say I've never come across this outside of beginners trying to grab the whole hand or something.

    Bet that helps Sorry.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers
    ? lead them?

    I would guess that you are used to pulling on the follower's fingers to lead them forward and stop them moving backwards - yes? How experienced are the followers who don't present you with this 'hook'? What moves do you notice it with? (ie what's actually happening to draw it to your attention?)

    A couple of things to try:
    - use the leading hand quite a bit lower than you would normally: the lower the hand, then the more area on the inside of the hand you have contact with & the easier it is to get the tension required.

    - use the follower's connecting hand's travel and slip your hand to their wrist or the side of the hand or the back of the hand depending on the movement.

    - lead by compression rather than tension: normally only practised in workshops, but the theory is that the follower maintains the level of compression you set up - if you reduce that pressure, then they will move forward to re-establish the compression. If you increase it, they will move back. Really hard to maintain during a dance and the constant compression can get a bit tiresome (a lot of WCS people like this form of leading)

    {I'm sure you know already, but the technique of not curling the fingers is sometimes used by followers to disengage themselves from leads who are too jerky and strong in their lead...}


    {...PS: there should never be any need to use the thumb in cases like this - that results in the follower trying to pull away and the lead's thumb digging in. If you use a pistol grip for the lead, you can 'scissor' the follower's hand; much less likelihood of hurting them.}
    Last edited by Gadget; 25th-April-2008 at 01:41 PM.

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Leading help

    This reminds me of dancing on a busy party night not to long ago.

    One of my filler moves is the yoyo, I can do that move while trying to think on more exciting moves to try next.

    Anyway I did my usual yoyo and this follower treated it as if it was a hatchback, so off she span into the busy crowd like a bowling ball

    I found it a bit unnerving and wondered what I done to signal the hatchback and not the yoyo. So I made sure my fingers were properly curled and tried it again and this time I really slowed the yoyo down and made it really smooth. Made no difference off she went like a spinning top

    So I caught her left and went into arm-jive mode and asked why she had done the hatchback, she just said "I thought that’s what you wanted me to do", I was like NO I was just expected you to do a normal yoyo , she said "well the last guy wanted me to do spins there". I replied well I'm happy with normal yoyo thanks.

    So next yoyo worked fine.

    Then the next turned into another hatchback, off into the crowd again causing mayhem

    That’s when I thought, that’s it thumb locks definitely going on next time.

    Moral of the story, don't always think of the thumb lock as being an evil thing.

    Sometimes you need to think on it like being the safety catch on loaded gun, you don't want that gun going off and injuring innocent bystanders do you

    Saying all that, liked your post Gadget, will muse over if I can do anything different in future.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I would guess that you are used to pulling on the follower's fingers to lead them forward and stop them moving backwards - yes?
    Well, I don't really want to 'pull them' as such, I just want them to stay engaged, so, when I move backwards, they move forwards


    How experienced are the followers who don't present you with this 'hook'? What moves do you notice it with? (ie what's actually happening to draw it to your attention?)
    Well, they're definitely beginners in WCS (which is what I'm learning to lead) but they may well have done MJ?



    A couple of things to try:
    - use the leading hand quite a bit lower than you would normally:
    My hand 'is' quite low already, as its WCS

    - use the follower's connecting hand's travel and slip your hand to their wrist or the side of the hand or the back of the hand depending on the movement.
    Not applicable with the moves I was trying to lead

    - lead by compression rather than tension:
    As above

    (a lot of WCS people like this form of leading)
    Do they?

    {I'm sure you know already, but the technique of not curling the fingers is sometimes used by followers to disengage themselves from leads who are too jerky and strong in their lead...}
    hmm yes but this was in a class situation and I don't think I was leading 'hard' (I hope not anyway)

    If you use a pistol grip for the lead, you can 'scissor' the follower's hand; much less likelihood of hurting them.}
    Yes, I was using a pistol grip... I might 'try' this if it happens again

    Its a weird thing, I had it happen once with a beginner-ish guy, who lead like this but I suspected at the time that someone had told him off for 'gripping or thumbs etc.' so he might have gone overthetop the other way, so I didn't want to say anything, as his confidence might have already been knocked that night. Anyway, it was a fun challenge to try and stay connected
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    Re: Leading help

    Yo-yo Vs Hatchback.

    I've had the same thing happen: lead into a yo-yo and catch from a hatch-back. Problem is two fold: 1- the follower is anticipating rather than following. 2- the lead is not as clear as it could be.

    I do a few things to sort it out:
    First I lead a hatchback. I lead it very clearly so that the follower is in no doubt that they are spinning and I know where they (should be) are spinning. (but not hard enough that they spin off into the stratosphere). Then I lead a yo-yo. Clearly and smoothly. That should give enough of a hint to the follower.
    If not, I change the lead for the yo-yo to sandwich the follower's hand between my shoulder and my hand on the lead in. Then the lead is on the back of the follower's hand and is more of a break, stopping the follower from traveling rather than leading infront of them.
    If that dosn't work, then I stop leading yo-yos. I lead the starting arm, but don't fold out: raise and duck under it, lead it high for a turn, slide to the side, step forward,... break the pattern and stop them from anticipating. Then when I actually lead a yo-yo, they actually follow it.
    If they still spin out, then by that time the track is almost over and I can avoid leading any more yo-yo based moves. I may even talk to the follower after it

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm new to leading and have come across a problem...

    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers

    I've had this happen a couple of times now.
    Be sure to hold you hand vertical and gently push upwards (and slightly away from you and towards them) so your fingers pushing into the palm of the hand. While doing so pass your thumb outside and pull the followers fingers marginally down although the upward press of the fingers should induce this anyway; as they begin to curl you pull the hand slightly towards you and in the direction you want the arm to go.

    In effect you arc your arm and pull towards the direction of travel while punching into the hand to force the curling of the fingers but you have done it without violence although you need to do it at some speed.

    It will happen more often than you realise but mainly because the follower extends the hand naturally with only very slight curvature. If you adopt the same policy towards picking up every hand during the dance you will find you should get a good connection and the follower will get a better dance.

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    Re: Leading help

    How about what may be the bleedin' obvious - mention that you're learning to lead and find it awkward if they don't play the game you're expecting? - I've been doing that in Salsa and it works every time with no offence.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Well, they're definitely beginners in WCS (which is what I'm learning to lead) but they may well have done MJ?
    Ahhhh, that's where you're going wrong

    My hand 'is' quite low already, as its WCS
    and it's not in MJ? Try taking a half-step closer and drop your hand below your partner's waist.

    Do they?
    Most of the followers I have lead from a WCS background (or who take up WCS) like a constant background connection. Personally my 'normal' lead is from nothing, so I have to increase the tension/weight so that I can lead by relaxing it rather than by applying compression. I find it a lot more tiring to lead than normal, but the advantage is that followers can be more responsive to changes and subtle things are easier to convey.
    I've only found followers able to follow like this who have been taught how to follow this sort of lead - whether I am leading it wrong or you have to be taught it I don't know. Ego says the latter, but I have a suspicion that it's the former.

    Its a weird thing, I had it happen once with a beginner-ish guy, who lead like this...
    What happened? the slipping away or the scissor grip? And from a lead or follow perspective... you've got me all confuddled now.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Most of the followers I have lead from a WCS background (or who take up WCS) like a constant background connection.
    I'd say I'm a fairly experienced WCS follow now and I've never heard of anyone following purely by tension alone?
    Which is how I read, what you suggested.

    What happened? the slipping away or the scissor grip? And from a lead or follow perspective... you've got me all confuddled now.
    Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well, I meant I followed a guy who didn't curl his fingertips once, so there was no way of creating any resistance. The dance went 'ok' but I think it was only cos I was using every other following skill I know, to make it work!
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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm new to leading and have come across a problem...

    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers

    I've had this happen a couple of times now.
    Two options:

    1/ Cope with it

    2/ Tell them (after the dance, ask if they would like some feedback)

    I love the pistol grip, when I am dancing Ceroc with someone I know does WCS... It enables me to lead them in an open move so much better, when I want a slot or an open "tension up and follow" move.

    So I sometimes go to pistol grip, get a look of recognision, then they change thier body style to match.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'm new to leading and have come across a problem...

    What do you do, when the follow doesn't curl the tips of her fingers

    I've had this happen a couple of times now.
    I know this problem well, as a friend of mine does this regularly. She just dances occasionally for fun and doesn't attend classes so I haven't bothered trying to correct her in any way - it wouldn't be appropriate.

    Short of just dealing with it the only thing I can suggest is leading from a grip that's above their hand rather than below it in the open position. The hand widens just after the wrist, so you can gently hook your partner at that point by wrapping your fingers into the palm of their hand and your thumb around the inside edge of their wrist.

    From this position you can still lead lead them forward, prep and perform most things you can with a normal grip. Unfortunately changing from a tension to compression connection requires a little more fudgery on your part.

    It's a long way from best practice. I'm not sure how it feels to the follower, but I imagine it's very uncomfortable if you actually grab the wrist or hand rather than just hooking them. It does remove their ability to let go though, which is essentially your problem here.

    From a technical perspective it's better to correct them obviously, but if you think it'd be too much too soon then this might be a good alternative for you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Most of the followers I have lead from a WCS background (or who take up WCS) like a constant background connection.
    In my experience good followers, regardless of style background, like to have a constant connection. Apparently it has something to do with them then being able to feel changes in it so they can follow. Who would have thought....?
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 27th-April-2008 at 09:52 PM.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Short of just dealing with it the only thing I can suggest is leading from a grip that's above their hand rather than below it in the open position.
    One other little detail I should probably have mentioned....

    If you do decide to try this grip out, it pays to apply just a little bit of pressue in such a way as to bend their wrist very slightly upward. If the followers wrist is bent forward it feels very strange and their forearm isn't engaged which makes leading them even more difficult.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Try taking a half-step closer and drop your hand below your partner's waist.
    no can do in wcs, you need distance to establish connection for your anchors (i.e. how you resolve a pattern and start a new one).


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Most of the followers I have lead from a WCS background (or who take up WCS) like a constant background connection.
    Hmmm don't know if that's what they like, but that's certainly a common mistake we make when we learn wcs from MJ background.

    In MJ we tend to have a constant background connection (even if it is sometimes very small) through our fingers and arms.
    In wcs we need to have a lot more resistance (and create stretch and all that good stuff) during the anchors, but we need to be 'silent' (i.e. no connection through the arms or fingers, the fingers are simply touching and the frame is engaged via the lats but the leader should not feel any tension or compression from us).
    We tend to learn the 'give more resistance' piece first in wcs, and usually carry that over through the whole pattern, i.e. this makes us 'heavy' through the whole dance. Until we learn to power ourselves through the slot after the initial lead on 'and a one', and manage to maintain contact while have a 'zero' tension or compression throughout the pattern.
    In my experience, that's one of the trickiest part of wcs for the follows, and is fundamental to the feel of the dance.


    Sorry that was a bit off topic - to answer Lory's question, as I do have the same problem when I lead wcs, I haven't found any miracle solution: I just keeping placing my hand properly at the beginning of the dance (with a smile , or saying 'I get a better connection from you that way' ) and re-adjusting it throughout as their hand slips down.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    In MJ we tend to have a constant background connection (even if it is sometimes very small) through our fingers and arms.
    In wcs we need to have a lot more resistance (and create stretch and all that good stuff) during the anchors, but we need to be 'silent' (i.e. no connection through the arms or fingers, the fingers are simply touching and the frame is engaged via the lats but the leader should not feel any tension or compression from us).
    We tend to learn the 'give more resistance' piece first in wcs, and usually carry that over through the whole pattern, i.e. this makes us 'heavy' through the whole dance. Until we learn to power ourselves through the slot after the initial lead on 'and a one', and manage to maintain contact while have a 'zero' tension or compression throughout the pattern.
    In my experience, that's one of the trickiest part of wcs for the follows, and is fundamental to the feel of the dance.
    Very interesting. So that answers the conundrum as to why WCS can feel so disconnected with some advanced followers.


    to answer Lory's question, as I do have the same problem when I lead wcs, I haven't found any miracle solution:
    I've never found it a problem, there is always friction + not relying on just the hand.

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    Re: Leading help

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Very interesting. So that answers the conundrum as to why WCS can feel so disconnected with some advanced followers.
    That's one way to look at it I suppose.

    I agree 100% with what Caro is saying here, but I think it's possible to be "connected" even at those points where there is neither tension nor compression between the partners. In other words, you can still feel your partner even if there isn't much more than contact between your hands if the connection is quiet enough.

    It might sound like pedantry as well, but those instances only occur when you’re deliberately not leading something, such as in a basic pass where you set the follower moving and she does the rest until she anchors off you. If you were to cut off the pass or redirect it back to the other end of the slot then you’ll still need to build resistance in your connection for instance (although not necessarily through the LH/RH hold you’ve probably been using…… this stuff gets complicated quickly when you try to write it down!).

    That may be what you're feeling from these followers, as I presume they’re still following what you’re leading given that you describe them as advanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo
    I've never found it a problem, there is always friction + not relying on just the hand.
    You can’t get the elastic stretch WCS is known for relying on friction alone, particularly if the follower doesn’t have very good control of her own momentum. If either dancer lets go or has a very lazy hook then it’s almost inevitable they will split apart at one point or another.

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