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Thread: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Been kicking around this for ages, and done bu@@er all with it ... so I thought ... lets post it and get some feedback .

    The general idea was to put together some sort of matrix that would allow promoters, teachers and punters to rate dancers. Then, if a workshop says 'Intermediate and above', the dancers will know whats expected and we may get past this case of dancers turning up who are totally out of their class .... or at least thats the theory.

    So ... he's an 'aunt sally'. I KNOW its not perfect but I would just like feedback. Who knows, we may even develop this into something of a 'standard' ... well, a man can dream can't he.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Been kicking around this for ages, and done bu@@er all with it ... so I thought ... lets post it and get some feedback .

    The general idea was to put together some sort of matrix that would allow promoters, teachers and punters to rate dancers. Then, if a workshop says 'Intermediate and above', the dancers will know whats expected and we may get past this case of dancers turning up who are totally out of their class .... or at least thats the theory.

    So ... he's an 'aunt sally'. I KNOW its not perfect but I would just like feedback. Who knows, we may even develop this into something of a 'standard' ... well, a man can dream can't he.
    That'll do more to chase people away than crap music.
    How many people do you think will be happy at being judged they're not good enough or not as good as they thought they were.
    That's a no, no I think.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    That'll do more to chase people away than crap music.
    How many people do you think will be happy at being judged they're not good enough or not as good as they thought they were.
    That's a no, no I think.
    Uggg ... apologies for not making my intent clear. I'm talking about workshops ... not class nights ... very different animal.

    One of the biggest complaints from people who want to LEARN at weekenders are the amount of people in a workshop who are patently out of their depth. Its not necessarily their fault .... just that they have nothing objective to assess themselves against. As a promoter, I've turned people down from headliner workshops because I've known them and knew they weren't good enough. Is that so wrong?

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    That'll do more to chase people away than crap music.
    How many people do you think will be happy at being judged they're not good enough or not as good as they thought they were.
    That's a no, no I think.
    Agree with Brian, I like MJ's lack of formal 'assessment' and people sitting in judgement of others. With workshops there is nothing to stop people issuing a little note that says 'to do this workshop you should be able to do the following........'

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Agree with Brian, I like MJ's lack of formal 'assessment' and people sitting in judgement of others. With workshops there is nothing to stop people issuing a little note that says 'to do this workshop you should be able to do the following........'
    Hmmmm ... looks like me are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Uggg ... apologies for not making my intent clear. I'm talking about workshops ... not class nights ... very different animal.
    With respect Gus, I read your post and understood you were talking about workshops and I still say some, maybe many people would be offended to be judged differently from their perception of themselves.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Doolan View Post
    With respect Gus, I read your post and understood you were talking about workshops and I still say some, maybe many people would be offended to be judged differently from their perception of themselves.
    If I want to tennis, martial art or indeed nearly any other form of dance ... you have to pick a class to match your level. At the big Swing event you have to audition to be able to do the upper workshops. I've had a number of dancers complain to me that they can't progress while they are attending workshops being held up by going at the pace of the slowest.

    I'm sorry, but if we are to let our better dancers to progress, they have to be given the opportunity to progress ... and that means dancing with similar dancers and being pushed by a good instructor. There are loads of workshops for the average dancer ... not so much for those who want to progress.

    Its not so different dancing at a freestyle. With most dancers you will make an assessment of what their capabilities are and dance up to that level. If you get a really good dancer then you can really cut loose and push the limits. Of course, a REALLY good dancer, e.g. DavidB or AMir, can take inexperienced dancers to places most of us can only dream about .... but the rest of us have to wait till we get a really good follower till we can push it. Does that make some kind of sense? I'm not trying to alienate anyone ... just give people the chance for the appropriate level of instruction.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    If I want to tennis, martial art or indeed nearly any other form of dance ... you have to pick a class to match your level. At the big Swing event you have to audition to be able to do the upper workshops. I've had a number of dancers complain to me that they can't progress while they are attending workshops being held up by going at the pace of the slowest.

    I'm sorry, but if we are to let our better dancers to progress, they have to be given the opportunity to progress ... and that means dancing with similar dancers and being pushed by a good instructor. There are loads of workshops for the average dancer ... not so much for those who want to progress.

    Its not so different dancing at a freestyle. With most dancers you will make an assessment of what their capabilities are and dance up to that level. If you get a really good dancer then you can really cut loose and push the limits. Of course, a REALLY good dancer, e.g. DavidB or AMir, can take inexperienced dancers to places most of us can only dream about .... but the rest of us have to wait till we get a really good follower till we can push it. Does that make some kind of sense? I'm not trying to alienate anyone ... just give people the chance for the appropriate level of instruction.
    I agree entirely with what you're saying Gus but I still say some people will be offended by an organiser's "mis-judgement" of them.

    I'm off to Edinburgh now (RH&B) so Chukky's shutting down, see ya's all rammoara.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Agree with Brian, I like MJ's lack of formal 'assessment' and people sitting in judgement of others. With workshops there is nothing to stop people issuing a little note that says 'to do this workshop you should be able to do the following........'
    er...but they don't and there IS something to stop them...people like you and Brian who think its "sitting in judgement"

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    The general idea was to put together some sort of matrix that would allow promoters, teachers and punters to rate dancers. Then, if a workshop says 'Intermediate and above', the dancers will know whats expected and we may get past this case of dancers turning up who are totally out of their class .... or at least thats the theory.
    Who's doing the rating, the promoters, the teachers or the punters? I fear they may have differing opinions.

    The teacher will probably have specific things in mind, and might be better asking for them.

    The promoter *may* just want as many bodies through the door as possible.

    The punter is probably the only one who has a right* to judge his or her own ability, but the least able to be objective.

    (*Outside of competition, or specific teaching situations.)

    I fear too that those who are the most likely to go to classes that are too difficult for them, are also least likely to pay attention to the Dancer Assessment Matrix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    So ... he's an 'aunt sally'. I KNOW its not perfect but I would just like feedback. Who knows, we may even develop this into something of a 'standard' ... well, a man can dream can't he.
    Generally, I'm sceptical of this developing into anything, but I am sympathetic to the general idea.

    Some specific comments...

    "Can use most intermediate moves well" – most? Of how many?

    "Competent with all beginners and intermediate moves and can mix smoothly" – what, all? (I still have trouble with the half-windmill, and that used to be a beginner's move!)

    I'd talk about smoothness, rather than "Ceroc bounce".

    I think a category called "Connection" – concerning all aspect of connection, with partner, music and even floor – might be a good idea.

    I'd say your description attached to Freestyle ability of Intermediate+ doesn't fit with those of other levels. Not sure what I'd put though.

    For Posture/Balance, you need to say something about posture. Also, the Advanced dancer should have (IMHO) a marked difference in ability here compared to the Intermediate+. In my mind the use of posture, weight and balance is one of the key things that separate the best from the rest.

    There's a typo in "... looks like a 'dancers' ...".

    HTH.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    er...but they don't and there IS something to stop them...people like you and Brian who think its "sitting in judgement"
    Is it poor eyesight? a mental inability to process the written word? or simply the result of gazing through the window when you should have been listening to your English teacher when you were in school?

    I neither wrote nor implied that I thought it was "sitting in Judgement", simply some people (not I) will be offended by an organiser's percieved "mis-judgement" of them.
    Completely different from what you percieved my intent to be.

    Oh and by the way, it's it's not its.







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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    for brevity it's its not its it's not its.
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 19th-April-2008 at 01:38 PM.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Generally, I'm sceptical of this developing into anything, ....
    Well its taken only 10 posts or so for the thread to disappear over the horizon of usefull contribution and into the land of pednacy .... Should have known better ....

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    I quite like the idea...in fact I like it a lot.

    At the end of the day, MJ dancing is an optional thing...you don't have to do it, but if you want to and you have the ability, you can do it to a high level.

    Knowing your ability is never a bad thing. Blindly going into something and thinking that you are great is not good and to that end if your ability (or lack of) inhibits those more capable of progress...then is that really a good thing? I'm not convinced. I'm definately up for being positive and promoting an individuals unique abilities, but not the mutual back slapping that is so prevalent within the world of MJ.

    I work as a Personal Trainer and within the boundaries of my job, I have to tell people if they are doing things right or wrong...they still chose to come to me for help, knowledge and assistance within their training, but the point is, they don't have to. If they didn't want to benefit from my ability within the world of fitness training and nutritional advice then they wouldn't come along. A lot of the time the advice is there to prevent possible injury...how is modern jive any different?

    You wouldn't want a complete beginner who's never dipped or dropped before, doing an advanced dips and drops routine would you? But how do they know if nobody tells them. One of the many things that used to wind me up about the MJ scene was.."well....it's looking good so far but some of you might want to try it this way" (says the teacher in expectant yes they are listening to me mode). Be specific...tell the person. If a class knows that you will tell any of them if they do things right or wrong, then hopefully nobody should feel awkward about it.

    No more bull$hit in MJ!

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Well its taken only 10 posts or so for the thread to disappear over the horizon of usefull contribution and into the land of pednacy .... Should have known better ....
    Gus, that's a bit harsh IMO (assuming of course that I've interpreted your spelling correctly ).

    You asked for 'feedback'. That's exactly what the post you quote has given - feedback on the idea in general, feedback on how to improve specific aspects of what you've produced, and feedback on issues that might get in the way of your idea working in practice. Ducasi has obviously taken some time to read your proposal and think about suggestions, so why trash his comments as 'pednacy' [sic]?

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    What is T&C?

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Well its taken only 10 posts or so for the thread to disappear over the horizon of usefull contribution and into the land of pednacy .... Should have known better ....
    Once you have started entering rules into a spreadsheet you are on the road to pedantry.

    A rep deserving forumite posted a link to a TED lecture on feeling the music. As interesting as that was I was more inspired by the story behind the lady giving it. She had been rejected by music school because she was deaf. Not only had she managed to get that decisionoverturned but, as a consequence, the selection rules were changed so that no-one was rejected solely on the basis of a handicap, and all applicats were interviewed.

    I am suspicious when the world of rules invades the world of art.

    One solution to the problem is to run workshops on a pick and mix basis e.g. Multi Workshop Sunday 20th April 2008 - Workshops - CJ-Jive Modern Jive club

    Entry to the more demanding workshops could be by invitation only, with the invitations being given out by the teachers in the open workshops.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    I do not think it is bad to give guidelines of what you are expected to be able to do, before you enter the workshop.

    Fixed couples of course sorts this out a fair amount. You can give the guidelines and state "It is aimed at people who can..... if you are not at this level of dance, you might struggle to keep up with the workshop"

    Those who struggle, then, struggle, but they knew they would up front.

    The problem is when it is rotational. Then again I would never take part in a workshp without a fixed partner, as I would not get as much out of the workshop... past experience of rotational workshops for me, just means I am continually getting some follows up to speed and hanging out for the follows who can keep up.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Gus, that's a bit harsh IMO (assuming of course that I've interpreted your spelling correctly ).
    I think there are two ways of reading it:

    If Gus is complaining about Ducasi's feedback, then you're right, Gus is being harsh (and a bit hypocritical, given his original post).

    But Gus could also be making a wry comment based on Ducasi saying "I'm not sure if this is going to develop into anything", and the very next post being a major thread-derailment into pedantry that certainly isn't going to help.

    I'm giving Gus the benefit of the doubt here.

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    Re: A Dancer Assessment Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Ducasi has obviously taken some time to read your proposal and think about suggestions, so why trash his comments as 'pednacy' [sic]?
    I WASN'T having a go at Ducasi ... I appreciate his feedback ... I was commenting on the 'its' v it's debate .... as usual. Wasn't absolutely clear that this was furthering the debate.

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