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Thread: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

  1. #21
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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    You say "the only person qualified". Qualified to do what? Quilified at what level? Who qualified them? Do they have your respect? Are they crap teachers?......

    Im sure there are some teachers who are ""Qualified"" that you would tell them to shuv their advice.
    I wasn't being literal, I was picking up on the use of the word qualified by DTS (that's why it was in ' marks) If you have paid to go to a venue to learn to dance, then you obviously think that the teacher is going to teach you to do so. Therefore you would expect the teacher to be able to give you advice. But I agree there are some teachers whose advice I would never want to base my dancing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Now my point is who is qualified to give advice on the dance scene,

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Now my point is who is qualified to give advice on the dance scene, teachers? Of course. Taxu dancers? I think so.

    Your views and comments would be appreciated, good or bad.
    A certain prominent teacher, who's had a considerable amount of ballet training, once told me a very entertaining story about a guy who (before even dancing with her) assumed that because she was new to a venue, she must be a complete beginner. So he decided to teach her to spin...

    I think, as with so many things of this nature, if you have at least a smattering of common sense (oh - and some tact), you can judge when it's appropriate to offer advice, and whether you have beneficial advice to give. If you don't have any common sense, better to keep quiet

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    If the UKA thought for a min that Ceroc have it right, they would stamp it without fail. LeRoc are closer than any MJ organisation having associate rights to the UKA.
    The sooner the UKA become involved with MJ the better.
    So .... reverting to ODA mode, is the logical conclusion that LeRoc teachers are better than CTA teachers?

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Yes i must admit Trouble has smoothed out my dancing no end and I owe a great deal to her marvelous input over the last couple of years.

    DTS Dave XXX XX
    Was it Trouble that taught the DTS special, pulling a partner back by her hair. A particular favourite of mine and so effective at getting the follow to change direction....................

    On a serious note, beginners probably expect some hints and tips from the teachers and/or taxis. The challenge is when do you stop offering it. I've still got lots to learn, having only danced for 2 years, but if I want advice when I'm dancing I'll ask for it, I certainly don't want it to be offered by people when I'm dancing freestyle. In classes or workshops however I'll take any advice from anyone.

    I suppose I'd expect people dancing with teachers and taxis up to the 10:00pm watershed might be seeking advice but after that I'd not volunteer it, just dance. The exceptions to that are if people are being dangerous to themselves or others, or causing pain.

    I don't think that there is any place for general punters wandering around dispensing advice/criticism which may be wrong anyway - and beginners can get very confused very quickly if thy get shown 3 different ways to do the same move by 3 different partners. Of course, if people ask most of us will try to help but my experience is that most people are very careful about who they ask.

    DTS you're a lovely guy and I'm sure that you do this in a very sensitive way, but others are not so gifted....................

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    I had an eye opening experience for me a few weeks back that gave me a whole new respect for taxi dancers

    I invited a female friend of mine to come and try Ceroc, she’s quite sporty in a lot of ways so I thought she would get a lot out of it.

    She went through the beginners class and review class.

    Then she came over we had a little chat and then I took her up for a dance.

    I did a few moves that I can lead anyone through: arm jive, step across, octopus, in & out. She managed to follow.

    Then I tried the first move with her (we had done the first move push spin in class) and it didn’t work, instead of turning her whole body round she was a little floppy and just twisted her top half and shuffled her feet a little.

    I thought hhhmmm better step through the first move and yoyo with her, that way I thought she’ll be able to freestyle all night with most people and have fun.

    So I slowly took her through the steps and try my best to explain how she should have some form of inner tension in her body. I could see it wasn’t easy for her but I told her not to worry as everyone finds it difficult the first few weeks.

    Then I tried the moves at half speed and it all went a bit wrong, she still wasn’t getting it and I was trying my best to keep on reassuring her but that step between stepping through the move then trying it at half speed had failed.

    With that her confidence suddenly shattered. She’s usually s smiley girl but I could see she was dead sad, mouth turned down at the edges. I told her not to worry and tried some arm jive and stuff with her but it was like she had lost the will to live, it felt horrible and I felt like sh:t.

    The song ended and we went back to our table, we didn’t say much, then someone came and asked me for a dance, so I went off feeling a good bit guilty.



    Then I came back and by this time the taxi dancer had came across and asked her for a dance. I thought great maybe he’ll be able to put the smile back on her face, she wasn’t really getting it right with him either but she kept on going and didn’t look too sad.

    She came back to the table and she seemed happier, taxi man had done a good job!

    In the mean time I had thought about the approach to use when dancing with her next, thought on all moves I could do where it was near impossible for her to go wrong. Thought of moves like: arm jive, octopus, side to side, step across, back pass, two handed yoyo into hallelujah and sway.

    So a few tracks later I took my friend up again for another dance and this time I gave her no advice but lead all these fail safe moves and we seemed to have fun and in between the worried looks there was a few big smiles.

    I drove her back home and we chatted and I was saying how it normally takes people 4-5 weeks to get it and she’ll be fine and she seemed dead cool about it and said she would be back the next week.

    Next week came and she cancelled on me and I haven’t bumped into her yet for a chat, I think I will be able to persuade her to come back for one more go but maybe it’s just not going to be her thing.

    I know I’m not qualified in any way to teach anyone Ceroc but what can you do when it’s your friend and it’s there first couple of nights and they just don’t seem to be getting it?

    You can’t just stand there and do nothing and say nothing can you?

    Well it seems I can’t and aren’t fellow dancers friends?

    Have you ever had that when you’ve been taxing Dave? Someone’s confidence smashing on you like a milk bottle hitting the pavement? If so how did you cope?


    In a lot of ways it has put me off inviting other friends to try Ceroc as it seemed them failing was like me failing and it was all a big responsibility.


    Just thought I’d share this post with you Dave as it might make you feel like your doing a super job compared to us mere mortals.

    All the best.

    DD

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Well DD my lovely, when your friend and you danced she is carrying a whole bag full of emotions with her, as you say she is sporty and her perception that she has of how you see her is one of a sporty sucessuful person. Whilst dancing with you if things go wrong she has a perception of what you are thinking of her.

    A taxi dancer is a stranger who,s job it is to help, encourage and motivate new dancers, she has no baggage with taxi dancers because they are strangers who are doing their job.

    A new dancer can feel inept and not very good with a taxi because at the end of the night they do not know each other, and he/she is there to help new dancers.

    A couple of sayings spring to mind...Never employ family or friends and do not teach friends or family.

    If your friend comes back dance with her using the moves she is comfortable with any problems ask the taxi to help, if the taxi cannot they will probably refer to the teacher. To your friend these are the proffesionals who are there to help her and looking inept in their eyes is not as bad as looking it in your eyes.

    A couple of my favourite saying in dance are, dont worry it will not come all at once it takes time, and try to relax as it is only dancing and not dental surgery

    I have not worded this very well but I think you will get my drift. I hope this helps if not have a word with the taxi who danced with her and see if he can help in any way.

    This is of course just my opinion, please feel free to add or disagree in any way, we are all learning everyday.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX
    Last edited by dave the scaffolder; 17th-April-2008 at 11:27 PM.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    i am in firm belief that a "teacher" or someone who call's themself a teacher should have a body governing them IE UKA. If the UKA thought for a min that Ceroc have it right, they would stamp it without fail. LeRoc are closer than any MJ organisation having associate rights to the UKA.
    The sooner the UKA become involved with MJ the better.
    Couldn't disagree more. I was persuaded by my wife in 1993 to go to ballroom lessons, complete with UKA-certified instructor. I hated it, felt the teacher was so far up her own a*** that she couldn't see any daylight and it was such a miserable experience that I lasted 4 weeks and didn't dance again until I started MJ in 2006. All through my professional life I've met people in training roles with impeccable qualifications and no skill. That's not to say the quals are useless, just that they don't guarantee the ability of the individual to be able to teach.

    It often becomes a racket anyway, with the certification normally meaning you have to keep getting your people through medals or grades. I'm not interested in that either, I just want someone to help me have fun, enable me to make improvements etc.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Had a bit of a think on this thread and qualified and teaching may not be the right criteria to apply to taxi dancers, upon digesting the ethos of this thread qualified and teaching should be left to those competent and able to do so.

    A taxi is there to help, encourage, motivate, review, refresh and provide a safe and non judgmental dance to beginners.

    A beginner can feel more comfortable dancing with a taxi because they are not the beginners friends or family and do not carry the "Oh my goodness its a teacher", aspect of dancing with teachers.

    If a beginner messes up the moves with a taxi, does it really matter a taxi is there for just that reason, to hold their hand on the first steps of their dance journey. When a beginner is confident about progressing, we as taxi dancers can let them walk on and try the intermediates class, secure in the knowlrdge that if they become anxious and uptight the taxi is always there with an encouraging smile and advice to help them regain their confidence.

    A taxi is a save haven in the new and scary scene of dancing. It is as Sinner said more about the warm and safe feeling we can provide, than about the technical teaching of dancing. GROUP HUG.

    Again only my opinion based on how much love and respect I have built up over the years of my own dancing for taxi dancers. I have surpassed some of the taxi dancers who encouraged me in the past, however I still will go to them for advice on this and that, and I have never been dissapointed by any of their responses.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I invited a female friend of mine to come and try Ceroc, she’s quite sporty in a lot of ways so I thought she would get a lot out of it.

    {snip}

    So I slowly took her through the steps and try my best to explain how she should have some form of inner tension in her body. I could see it wasn’t easy for her but I told her not to worry as everyone finds it difficult the first few weeks.

    Then I tried the moves at half speed and it all went a bit wrong, she still wasn’t getting it and I was trying my best to keep on reassuring her but that step between stepping through the move then trying it at half speed had failed.

    With that her confidence suddenly shattered. She’s usually s smiley girl but I could see she was dead sad, mouth turned down at the edges. I told her not to worry and tried some arm jive and stuff with her but it was like she had lost the will to live, it felt horrible and I felt like sh:t.

    The song ended and we went back to our table, we didn’t say much, then someone came and asked me for a dance, so I went off feeling a good bit guilty.
    This is just a thought DD, but is there any chance that this female friend fancies you?

    Us guys are sometimes very bad at picking up on the signs that a woman is interested in us unless they are as obvious as a 4ft neon sign. Women are pretty good at sidling up to us guys, making sure they are at places that we are and paying attention to us until in the end we get the impression that asking them out was our idea in the first place.

    So perhaps this lady goes along to dancing as a way of being close to you and showing an interest. Then part way through it she finds she can't do something and feels crest fallen in your presence. Oh dear! what she hopes may turn into a date starts looking like a disaster.

    Now I am not saying that she does fancy you (or that she doesn't). I am saying that it could be a possibility that you should consider. If you recipricate then fine, but if you don't feel the same you need to think of the gentlest way of letting her down.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Taxi dancers are not always good though and can have a negative response.

    When me and sis started dancing, i do not remember once, a taxi dancer coming over and dancing with us or making us feel good. The other thing that is very noticeable to newbies is when the teacher does not work the floor or they just dance with the people they know ingoring the new guys. This happens even now at venues i go to.

    A woman recently was upset by another dancers attitude at her following him and she approached me and told me but asked for me not to say anything, which i didn't and myself and Dave tried to get her to forget it but you could tell it ruined her night. She was only in her first or second week. She did not turn up this week. So, regardless of how good taxi dancers are or a venue, it only takes one twat to ruin it, and a lost punter.


    so whilst taxi dancers tend to work hard, if a teacher does not back up that work, it ruins it.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    I have always tried to be accomodating and was honoured the other week to be asked to show a newcomer to Ceroc, with the teacher herself, a particular first move variation where you move your feet in a 'waddling' style whilst holding your partner close to you.

    After showing this, I was speaking to the person for a significant amount of time about all aspects of the Ceroc and Swing scene and even making recommendations to what workshops and classes to take (weekenders came into it as well)

    I appreciate that some newcomers to the scene take a while getting used to it, but I do try and dance with them to give them a sense of what it is all about, but equally I know that there are some who would rather not be told what to do, but to discover it for themselves. Respect and applause to them.

    best
    johnnyman

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Had a bit of a think on this thread and
    A taxi is there to help, encourage, motivate, review, refresh and provide a safe and non judgmental dance to beginners.


    DTS Dave XXX XXX
    Kinda stepped on my point there DTS.

    Glad you agree though because thats exactly what taxi dancers are... dancers with a good personality... its not about the dancing, its about making people feel welcome and encouraging them. There are many taxi dancers in the dance world who are very basic dancers as i was when i first started taxiing at Cheshunt many moons ago. I couldn't dance a lead but i was great at making people feel welcome.

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    The other thing that is very noticeable to newbies is when the teacher does not work the floor or they just dance with the people they know ingoring the new guys. This happens even now at venues i go to.
    ...snip...
    so whilst taxi dancers tend to work hard, if a teacher does not back up that work, it ruins it.
    It was roughly at the six month mark before I had the courage to go and ask the teacher for a dance. I really only did it because I was getting so board of all the unleadable moves they were teaching us new intermediates and I thought it was a clever way of giving them feedback on their lessons without actually saying anything.

    Here's my dancing look how well I've learned from your classes , I'm surprised the teacher came back the next week

    I find it a little strange that when I have danced with teachers they never seem to offer me advice, I always have to ask for it specifically and when I do there is usually a pause and a pained looked on there face. I would have thought teacher would enjoy giving people advice, maybe it's just me again.

    My view of taxi dancers is that they are a source of inspiration totally separate from the teacher.

    At intermediate level I find it a little frustrating I need to wait till they change out of there taxing gear before I can go ask them to dance but I know it's only fair the beginners get there full support as I know how helpful it can be.

    DD
    Last edited by DundeeDancer; 18th-April-2008 at 12:51 PM.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    The thread is titled "Who can give advice in the dance scene?" - not "Teach". Two differing things in my opinion:
    Teaching is presenting something new or instructing how to do something or correcting. Presenting a right and wrong.
    Advising is working with what's existing and suggesting how to do it better. Giving a viewpoint and options on what could be done differently.

    OK, sometimes the boundary blurs, but anyone can advise, only a few should be looked upon to teach.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Has anyone considered the implications of Public liabilty required for teaching, has the venue covered you to give instructions. If people hurt themselves from someones instructions, they could claim againts that person etc

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    A couple of sayings spring to mind...Never employ family or friends and do not teach friends or family.


    DTS Dave XXX XXX
    That is so true Dave.

    My father gave my mother some "driving lessons" and put her off driving for life.
    He gave me some, and I think I nearly put him off driving for life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post

    When me and sis started dancing, i do not remember once, a taxi dancer coming over and dancing with us or making us feel good.
    That's a shame, Trouble. I remember getting a huge boost on my first night when the taxi asked me to dance. It's great marketing.

    The other thing that is very noticeable to newbies is when the teacher does not work the floor or they just dance with the people they know ingoring the new guys. This happens even now at venues i go to.
    This happens in London too. Some teacher's even morph into the DJ.

    so whilst taxi dancers tend to work hard, if a teacher does not back up that work, it ruins it.


    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post

    I find it a little strange that when I have danced with teachers they never seem to offer me advice, I always have to ask for it specifically. I would have thought teacher would enjoy giving people advice, maybe it's just me again.
    No it's not you. I was under the impression that the teacher's would offer advice if they thought I was doing something amiss, until 2 weeks ago. [quote]

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    No it's not you. I was under the impression that the teacher's would offer advice if they thought I was doing something amiss, until 2 weeks ago.
    You forget that teachers are not there to improve your dancing, they are there to make sure you come back next week.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    You forget that teachers are not there to improve your dancing, they are there to make sure you come back next week.
    Thats just a touch cynical i think and if your not being cynical you are attending the wrong venues
    The teachers i know from cerocmetro all help the people in the class they also are all approachable along with the taxis who i hope come across as a really friendly bunch
    Personally i work really hard to try to make new people fit in as quickly as possible and so do the team i work with

    At chelmsford and bishops stortford we try to introduce new people to other members and whether we are on duty or not we all dance with as many people as possible as do the teachers and the DJ we dont just dance with our close friends

    I dont go to stevenage in the week as its a bit too far away but anyone who knows dts or trouble will know how friendly and approachable they are along with people like richard or the venue manager alan so i would guess its the same as the other metro venues that i frequent

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    When me and sis started dancing, i do not remember once, a taxi dancer coming over and dancing with us or making us feel good. The other thing that is very noticeable to newbies is when the teacher does not work the floor or they just dance with the people they know ingoring the new guys. This happens even now at venues i go to.
    I'd go even further and say that, when we started the taxi dancers actually avoided dancing with newbies and spent their nights chatting with their mates.

    I actually find it quite amazing that some venues manage to get people to come back at all.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    No it's not you. I was under the impression that the teacher's would offer advice if they thought I was doing something amiss, until 2 weeks ago.
    Astro they might still. Have you thought that by dancing with people and picking up on common 'challenges' in the people they dance with they might add something into the next intermediate to pick up on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    You forget that teachers are not there to improve your dancing, they are there to make sure you come back next week.
    Thats just a touch cynical i think and if your not being cynical you are attending the wrong venues
    What, tsh, cynical? Surely not?

    I doubt that many teachers think about doing something that is only focussed on getting punters to come the following week when they are up there teaching. If I didn't think that I was helping people to learn to dance and have a good time I'd stop overnight, it not always fun teaching especially at the end of a long stressful week. Of course by hopefully doing a good job you encourage a secondary effect which is that people come back to the venue because if it's not a commercial success no-one dances.

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