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Thread: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

  1. #41
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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    The taxi dancers at my local ceroc venue are complete treasures, and I feel safe dancing with them, even when I get it wrong. They’re patient when I **** up the bits I should be getting right, and they also do new moves on me that push me along a bit. I can’t fault them, and a few times when I’ve been feeling very insecure, down and about ready to go home, they’ve given me a good dance (as they always do) and then I’ve felt up to tackling other leads again. They’re personally very approachable people, though snowed under with women seeking them out – victims of their own success – pity we can’t clone them and have a dozen. They are exactly how I feel taxis should be, non-scary and helpful.

    I think Dave is absolutely right about it being easier to accept being completely inept with a taxi than with a friend or another dancer. If you dance with another punter badly as a newbie they may assume that is just the way you dance and that you won’t improve, so they might not ever ask you for a dance, or avoid you if you ask them.

    What has completely amazed and taken me aback about starting WCS recently, is how eager a couple of the beginner men are to patronise and give me advice, apparently because I am female. I don’t normally come across people in my work or home life who judge my brain capabilities by my hair colour, so I’ve found this a bit of a shocker, to be honest! I don’t even have to open my mouth to be metaphorically patted on the head by these guys – is it a male insecurity thing or are they just prats? And it’s not because I’m any worse at WCS than they are, because it’s the ones who are the least good at what they are doing who are the most full of it.

    Anyway, regardless of WHY these men are offering cr*p advice (and maybe I just look thick), I can’t conceive of how anyone can start something as a beginner and presume that they are able to offer any unsolicited advice of value to another beginner. Call me modest, but even when I get a new move first time (and trust me, they haven’t), I don’t stroll up to my first partner on rotation, tell them how good I am at it, then offer to do it with them first before I show them what they are doing wrong! Nor do I tell someone during freestyle time that I’m going to teach them a move really slowly so they will be able to get it, then after five minutes of unsuccessfully grappling and pushing finally admit that I don’t actually know the move I’m trying to teach but I saw someone do it once across a crowded hall and it looked really good.
    ......
    I mean, these men are beginners at WCS, they’re still struggling with the basic beginners’ moves, they can’t even step in time to the music, but their egos must be the size of Yorkshire.


    I’m not being judgemental, but if you are a beginner you should accept that actually you may not know it all. Yes, dear men, you might have been doing ceroc for five years, and…that makes you a WCS god?? (OK, it might, but believe me, not in these particular cases.) I’ve been doing line and newline for years, but I don’t think that qualifies me to patronise people at a WCS beginner class, even though as far as I have seen, WCS actually seems to have as much in common with linedancing as with ceroc. (“Don’t worry, love, I know I couldn’t get this right myself even if you nailed me to a robot, but I’m sure I can show you how to do it better than the teacher ever could…”)

    The difference to me is whether one is genuinely in a position where it is appropriate to offer advice i.e. if one is a teacher or could otherwise presumed to know what one is talking about, then fair enough. However, I’m inclined to think that the desire to offer advice to one's peers is often far more to do with personality than competence, and for that very reason, as a general rule, unsolicited advice should be avoided like the plague. If one feels impelled to offer advice, one should count to ten first, and use the time to consider if one should not instead bite one’s tongue!


  2. #42
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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    In a lot of ways it has put me off inviting other friends to try Ceroc as it seemed them failing was like me failing and it was all a big responsibility.
    Hi DD - I don't know you or your teacher(s), but note you're fairly new to the forum. If you are fairly new to Ceroc, you may want to check out your confidence in leading. Can you generally dance most moves with beginners on their first night ? Are you still dancing routines as taught in today's lesson, or varying by throwing different moves in that your partner is not expecting ?
    (I note your comment about 'the six-month mark'. Feel free to ignore me !)

    Some people dance more by signalling the move and expecting a pre-set response: others lead the move so that the follower is practically compelled to do the move correctly, even if they have never seen it before. Not all moves can be lead. Teaching someone to lead is very difficult.

    There is a 5-second spot at the start of a dance where you establish (or fail to establish) the lead-follow relationship. If you already know someone in another context, the dominant/submissive relationship may already be established, but the other way round. (Not that I'm suggesting you're into anything kinky here ... )

    I think our Taxi rules down here are a bit different - intermediates can approach Taxis for help with specific moves or techique problems. Maybe best done after 10:15 or on an off-duty night, if they're approachable and overwhelmed (numerically) by beginners when on-duty. We tried a slightly different approach, with 'Buddies' , having a more informal, social role, but also some formal training(!). They were employees, rather than volunteers that get in for free, but that proved too expensive. Insurance may be a grey area - best treat it as informal friendly advice rather than formal instruction.

    I would also echo that sometimes practical experience can count for more than formal training and qualifications, and that teaching may be imperfect. Seek widely for advice, and apply the advice that works for you ! Not sure about asking WCS teachers for help on MJ & vice-versa, though : the lead-and-follow mechanisms are very different !
    Last edited by EricD; 21st-April-2008 at 09:00 AM. Reason: pedanticness

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    PS Just spotted
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Thanks for the support Martin, I've signed up for Franck's "Lead and Follow" workshop coming up soon, so looking forward to making some progress.
    Definitely ignore me ! You'll be alright then !

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Some people dance more by signalling the move and expecting a pre-set response: others lead the move so that the follower is practically compelled to do the move correctly, even if they have never seen it before.
    Its just frustrating for both involved if you use pre-set signals with someone new in a social dance situation. Do you include offering a spare hand in different locations as a pre-set signal ? just wondering?

    Teaching someone to lead is very difficult.
    Really? Keep a connection and move yourself this way ? Yes, its the beginning of a journey to actual being able to dance ,but its not difficult in and of itself.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    teaching someone to lead is very difficult
    yes, but, it depends on how incompetent the pupil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Really? Keep a connection and move yourself this way ? Yes, its the beginning of a journey to actual being able to dance ,but its not difficult in and of itself.
    I can't agree.
    I was/am that pupil and my teacher must have been close to tearing his hair out when seeing my efforts at leading/dancing

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Last night, in the middle of a dance, my partner chirped up "I've only been dancing since January, I'm not up to your standard yet"

    The line lead me to many thoughts and questions....

    Why the need to to suddenly explain himself?

    Was I making him feel inadequate?

    Was he looking for some kind of reassurance?

    Did he want some feedback?

    Will I sound condescending if I simply say "your doing really well"?

    The thing was, he 'was' good for the time he'd been doing it but there were so many little things that would make him a better dancer.... things that I know for a fact, wont be taught in class.

    After a little chat about 'where' he usually dances, to build some sort of rapport, I said, (truthfully)... "You know something, you've got a lot of potential" "your timings good' and once you start to 'smooth it out' a little, you'll be wonderful.

    Seeing he hadn't a clue what I meant by this, as he gave me the look. I had to elaborate.

    I said, at the moment, your dancing every move properly, just like its been taught in the class! But your better than that now, you just need to blurr the edges little, to let each movement flow into the next...

    IMO his dancing instantly improved and he seemed happy!

    Was I qualified to say this? NO!

    Do I care? NO
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
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  7. #47
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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Was I qualified to say this? NO!
    Of course you are. If you know what you're talking about, then you're qualified . bah, I wouldnt get overly hung up about the word "qualified", it depends on both the giver AND the receiver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dep
    I was/am that pupil and my teacher must have been close to tearing his hair out when seeing my efforts at leading/dancing
    You may have been leading badly, but surely you were still leading

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    You may have been leading badly, but surely you were still leading
    no. and certainly not dancing.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    no. and certainly not dancing.
    Well you do now, so someone somewhere obviously did their job well at some stage

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Well you do now, so someone somewhere obviously did their job well at some stage
    thanks,
    but really all the thanks goes to Obie & Shona.

    Looking back, I'm glad I started with Ceroc. If I had started with one of the other dance styles I would have given up and still not be able to do anything to the music.

    The Ceroc organisation got it right. Forget teaching feet and make learning dance easy.
    As far as I can tell Ceroc is unique among the dance classes in deliberately avoiding teaching feet.

    So there's my advice:-
    if you're completely new to dance and want some measure of early success, start with Ceroc and then decide what else you can cope with.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    no. and certainly not dancing.
    If you held someones hand and made any sort of movement at all, you were leading. Its the definition of leading I was getting at, not anyones ability.

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    If you held someones hand and made any sort of movement at all, you were leading. Its the definition of leading I was getting at, not anyones ability.
    no, it was the "teaching someone to lead is very difficult" that got this started with "Really?"

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    I have said it before and I will say it again.

    Ceroc has enabled thousands of people to learn to dance, and gain confidence in their ability. Once confidence has been gained they can then either choose to stick to Ceroc or expand their dancing with other styles.

    Kudos to Ceroc I say.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    So there's my advice:-
    if you're completely new to dance and want some measure of early success, start with Ceroc and then decide what else you can cope with.
    Or indeed any of the modern jive organisations, 'branded' or otherwise

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Tonight I had some feedback from a beginner I just have to share ...
    She said 'Does anyone you dance with ever punch you in the face ?'

    I'm not sure how to take that. The fact she was happy to ask the question makes me think (perversely ?) that things were going reasonably OK, and she was quite relaxed and comfortable. Other interpretations are available !

    What did I do to provoke the reaction ? Well, the final straw was suggesting that we to the 'Dirty Dancing (Movie)' thing where Patrick Swayze and 'Baby' are mambo-ing back and forth on a log across a stream, so that all four feet are in a straight line. She had been nervous of treading on my toes (or more likely my treading on her toes ?) and 'straddling' (both her feet outside mine). I find it's actually great exercise for posture, balance, lead+follow timing and trust in footwork.

    I suppose I could have been gentlemanly and 'gone West' (Manhattan - side-by-side ('broadside-on' not 'in-line-ahead' for those still in pirate mode !)), but being bold and 'going South' (if you know what I mean ... ) usually works fine.

    A side-effect is that I find we get a better dance if she is thinking of Patrick Swayze rather than of me. That doesn't happen spontaneously, for some reason. Maybe Patrick Moore - he is famous for his musicality, after all ?

    It's all good fun if you don't take it seriously !

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    Forget teaching feet and make learning dance easy.
    As far as I can tell Ceroc is unique among the dance classes in deliberately avoiding teaching feet.
    Or teach that walking-to-the-music is valid footwork that is simple enough and common enough to be a better starting-point than just standing still ? Sorry - see previous footwork threads for the full arguments -they need not be repeated here !

    Maybe even 'just walk' is too much information for some to take in at first, but at some point, after a few weeks, it can often make things easier in practice ! Some people just do it naturally, without any prompting. I wouldn't insist - just suggest ... but see above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Do you include offering a spare hand in different locations as a pre-set signal ? just wondering?
    I hold my right hand out 0.5 pelvis-widths to the side at the start of the first move with beginners, if that's what you mean. It's cheating really, but reassuring (as long as she doesn't think 'Manspin!'). Leading her to your right and stepping to your left should suffice ... I only started doing that after dancing as a follower in a role-reversal lesson at a Xmas party - felt a need myself for a visual cue.

    I tend to regard 'visual leading' more as 'representational / inductive signalling' because it requires time for conscious thought-processing & understanding, rather than an instinctive/reflex reaction which is quicker and doesn't need (or even defies) explanation. Maybe a grey area exists where signal=lead ? Apply your own definition ...

    As often as not, if I give a visual lead it is a 'false signal' like the 'Almost Pretzel' where you withdraw the hand just before she catches it, then do a different move ! (There's a false Catapult signal move, too ... )

    Me:"Hard to teach leading ..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Really? Keep a connection and move yourself this way ? Yes, its the beginning of a journey to actual being able to dance ,but its not difficult in and of itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    If you held someones hand and made any sort of movement at all, you were leading. Its the definition of leading ...
    Maybe that's your definition, but ...
    "Is that all there is ? ... Then let's keep dancing!" (song by Leiber + Stoller - think 'Cabaret')

    Perhaps I should have said "It's hard to teach someone to lead a dance" : sorry if the context wasn't entirely clear in context - brevity, you know !

    Actually maybe I meant "It's hard to learn to lead..." ! Almost, but not entirely, a different thing.

    There is an interesting, but pointless, debate among teachers (not just in dance teaching) whether you can still be said to really be teaching if
    you 'go through the motions' even when no learners at all turn up to the class !

    It gets a bit like the mind-bending Zen thing about "one hand clapping in a forest where there is no-one to hear". Or "Schroedinger's cat" if you're more scientific than spiritual (click 2nd link below pic).

    Perhaps I should declare that I am (or was) 'just' a taxi, not a 'qualified' teacher. And have little experience of teaching 'How to lead'. Feel free to disregard me - I'm just here to entertain - I may be doing it all wrong. (Disclaimer - random image - I didn't choose it - click image for more.)

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Last edited by EricD : 21st-April-2008 at 09:00 AM. Reason: pedanticness
    Shouldn't that be pedanticism?

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Shouldn't that be pedanticism?
    Pedantry lol

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    Re: Who can give advice in the dance scene?

    Ignoring the trolls (or the trolled ?) ...

    I realised I can be more concise and hopefully clearer in kind-of-Haiku:

    If the learner doesn't learn
    does the teacher really teach?

    ... and on the other topic of this thread

    If the follower doesn't follow
    does the leader really lead ?

    The relevance of Zen and Schroedinger is that all are concerned with questionable cause-and-effect.

    To linguists, the problem is whether the verb is transitive or non-transitive.

    eg
    John fruggles.
    or
    John fruggles Janet.

    Another thought on the possible boundary between leading and signalling:
    I was considering leading as 'instinctive', but signalling as being 'interpreted'. Then I started wondering about the difference between 'instinctive' and 'intuitive' - I would say that that distinction is slight, but you can be consciously intuitive - are people more likely to say 'my intuition is this' rather than 'my instinct is this' ? Maybe intuition can be learned or developed, but instinct not ? Like a conditioned reflex ? (Pavlov not Pavlova ...)

    Maybe an action is a signal if the follower acts consciously on it, but the same action can affect another follower sub-consciously so it is then a (sub-liminal) lead ? That would explain the 'grey area'. Or is it like the Yin & Yang in Taoism, where there is a little bit of evil in the good we do, and a little bit of good in the evil, so that the grey areas are black-and-white after all ? (If we had a 'Wingdings' typeface option I'd insert the Pepsi logo off the Korean flag here ...)

    Signals and leads in practice can work at both conscous and sub-conscious levels ? To be a truly pure signal, it should be completely abstract, like the chinese-restaurant menu where you ask for 'Number 11, please'. Like a verbal signal 'First Move'. Of course, saying 'the 51st' could cause a problem.

    I'm sure we could learn a lot from (forumite?) magicians, jedi or illusionists here - mis-direction, blind-spots, perception filters ? New thread ?

    Last night a beginner said 'Please don't do that walking thing' ... so we 'did' Irish Polka and WCS instead! (No, I don't remember which track Rob was playing ...) I'm getting lots of useful feedback at the moment ...
    On reflection, maybe she just meant 'no mambo/manhattans' rather than 'no Ceroc'? Can't think why, though.

    PS I just found a real-life scene, straight from Father Ted !
    Last edited by EricD; 23rd-April-2008 at 11:28 AM.

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