Dancing with a total beginner on their first night

[Lory]

For three weeks on the trot, I've been faced with a situation which is usually fairly 'rare' for me.... (its like waiting for a bus, you wait for ages and then three come along all together)

......... So, I walk up to a guy, ask for a dance and they come out with "Its my first week"

So, I smile sweetly and say, 'it doesn't matter' just do what you can!
Can you remember any of what you learnt in the lesson?

Each time they've basically answered the same, "I can remember 'some' of it."

So, I've let them (in their own time) lead whatever they can. Which in the case of last night, was a first move, return and a hand jive.

Now, I know its totally wrong but after he'd led it for about the 20th time, I started to sense 'the 'guy' was getting more and more embarrassed and quite frankly, 'I' was bored I could see he had quite a bit of natural rhythmn and had probably danced with girls in clubs before but obviously, with no 'official' moves

So, I did the 10th deadly sin AND backled him like crazy!

And guess what... we had a fab dance and he blooming well, loved it!

So go on....

Tell me...

What 'should' I have done????

[Trouble]

you should have done exactly what you did to show him what it should be like and not let him carry on being bored as you both clearly were.

I do the same every single time.

I let them do their moves for a bit then i take over a little.

They love it.

Only problem is, they come back for more.

[Scotch Bonnet]

you should have done exactly what you did to show him what it should be like and not let him carry on being bored as you both clearly were.

I do the same every single time.

I let them do their moves for a bit then i take over a little.

They love it.

Only problem is, they come back for more.

I agree with you both,thing is you have to invest,there is always (in Edinburgh anyway) more woman than men.So if they turn out to be really good,then if you've looked after them at the begining they'll remember you always.

[CheesyRobMan]

if you've looked after them at the begining they'll remember you always.

This is very true

I dance with complete beginners quite often and it's interesting to see the different responses you get. I remember one lady who had picked up the beginners' routine quite well and seemed to be getting a bit bored by half way through the track, so I started leading different moves, only for her to stop, glare at me and say "can we go back to the routine please?!" On the other hand quite a few of the beginners we have are quite pliant (!) and are happy to be led through lots of stuff - and when I tell them "you just followed me through nearly all the beginners' moves and a couple of intermediate ones too" they go "ooh yay! " which is satisfying.

[Gerry]

So, I did the 10th deadly sin AND backled him like crazy!

And guess what... we had a fab dance and he blooming well, loved it!

So go on....

Tell me...

What 'should' I have done????

I do the same every single time.

I let them do their moves for a bit then i take over a little.

They love it.

Only problem is, they come back for more.

Will you back lead me

[Little Monkey]

Now, I know its totally wrong but after he'd led it for about the 20th time, I started to sense 'the 'guy' was getting more and more embarrassed and quite frankly, 'I' was bored I could see he had quite a bit of natural rhythmn and had probably danced with girls in clubs before but obviously, with no 'official' moves

So, I did the 10th deadly sin AND backled him like crazy!

And guess what... we had a fab dance and he blooming well, loved it!

So go on....

Tell me...

What 'should' I have done????

I sometimes do the same, if I sense the guy is getting desperately bored and frustrated with only doing 3-4 moves. Sometimes they're just happy to chat away and do their beginners 'routine' that they've just learned in class, but at times you can tell they wish they knew more.

Occasionally I'll say things like 'You're doing really well, you'll pick up dancing in no time at all!' Depending on the response I get, I might then say 'Hey, let me show you another move, I bet you'll get it straight away' and then backlead him into something, which normally produces a big grin on the guy's face.

If the guy really struggles with the beginner's routine he's just been taught I'd never do this, but try to help him lead his 3-4 moves right instead.

[stewart38]

I sometimes do the same, if I sense the guy is getting desperately bored and frustrated with only doing 3-4 moves. Sometimes they're just happy to chat away and do their beginners 'routine' that they've just learned in class, but at times you can tell they wish they knew more.

I think some of us just hit this mental wall

I had someone apologise every 3 secs for being no good and that was silly, we have all been there.........

[straycat]

I tend to think of it this way: the highest priority with beginners is that they have a great time, and want to come back. He'll probably learn to lead faster if you never backlead him, but that's not going to matter if he doesn't come back next week....

In other words, sounds like you did exactly the right thing.
Softly softly catchee monkey

[Twirly]

I've had LM's experience a number of times too with complete newbys. Can't say I've ever backled through moves they don't know (I don't think I'd be good enough to do this), but I've certainly backled beginners through the moves they've supposedly learnt if they're struggling with the routine (sometimes do this verbally as opposed to physically too). Again, you get a big grin when having been backled once or twice, they get the moves and find they're actually leading you!

Totally agree with Scotch Bonnett too - and the investment doesn't just have to be with beginners. I've seen quite a few absolutely terrified brand new intermediates and made lots of reassuring noises to them too, and offered to let them practise the routine with me later if they want to.

[Martin]

What 'should' I have done????

Well in the context of what you have described, seems like you did a fantastic job

[tsh]

Some followers can decide when to backlead effectively, most can't. The rules that apply to the majority are not necessarily apropriate for the best dancers in the room!

I certainly learnt a lot from a small number of followers who were clearly trying to help me learn and not just doing their own thing. I still think I learn most when I'm dancing with people rather than in workshops.

Sean

[Lory]

Wow, I'm surprised! There was me, awaiting a barage of complaints from the 'anti-backleading' brigade!

Occasionally I'll say things like 'You're doing really well, you'll pick up dancing in no time at all!'

Yep, I said all that but there's only so many times you can give praise to someone doing the same thing over and over, without sounding like your talking to a 4year old

[martingold]

Wow, I'm surprised! There was me, awaiting a barage of complaints from the 'anti-backleading' brigade!

Any decent dancer would think you did the right thing and anyway its fun to be backled occasionally lol

[DavidY]

Any decent dancer would think you did the right thing and anyway its fun to be backled occasionally lol

Only if it's done well - Lory's a fab dancer, but some not-so-fab dancers can be horrible to dance with when they backlead.

For instance, at one of my local venues, it's very difficult for the teacher and demo to hear the music on the stage, so you occasionally hear the teacher calling out the moves and dancing out of time with the music. One time when this happened I decided to dance to the music, but my partner was attempting to backlead me in time with the teacher (but half a beat ahead of the music). After this she was definitely bottom of my list of people to seek out in freestyle later...

[bigdjiver]

Wow, I'm surprised! There was me, awaiting a barage of complaints from the 'anti-backleading' brigade! ...

Sometimes in life you see people that have been doing something for years apparently doing it wrong. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they know something you do not. I believe there is a good reason why Ceroc teachers do not emphasise that MJ is lead and follow. I wonder if I would not have stuck at it if I had not had imperceptible hints about the next move in sequence from my partners. ( bless you all.)

...but there's only so many times you can give praise to someone doing the same thing over and over, without sounding like your talking to a 4year old

Carry on, I'm younger than I look ...

I am trying to learn the art of spin. "That's not what we were taught." becomes "You are developing your own style."

[Twirly]

I am trying to learn the art of spin. "That's not what we were taught." becomes "You are developing your own style."

Yep - I often find myself telling apologetic leads "there's no such thing as a mistake, it's just a variation"

Main thing is to encourage them to carry on. I also say that if they do make a "mistake", that if they continue as though nothing has happened, chances are that the follow won't even notice

[JCB]

Wow, I'm surprised! There was me, awaiting a barage of complaints from the 'anti-backleading' brigade!

It is all in the emphasis, Lory!
For:

What 'should' I have done????

I read:

What should 'I' have done????

...and, of course you should have done exactly what you did! So very little argument from the forum (although I haven't seen DJ 'round lately...)
Little me? I am very happy, after a class, to go through the routine a dozen or so times with a newbie. That is what gets it into muscle memory, after all! The best-beloved is none too fond of back-leading, in-class, or post-class. He says that having the follower push him into the right positions doesn't feel anything like actually leading the move, and doesn't help unless there was one particular bit that he had missed out, and it sparked his memory. (The only exception for him, at this stage, is back-leading the beat). Although I can't back-lead, sometimes, in a freestyle, if the leader gets lost, and the lead basically hesitates and dies, I will guess at the intended move, and go into autopilot, until I feel the connection come back. Don't really know what else to call this. It isn't back-leading, because I am just leading myself in a vacuum, not ignoring or resisting a lead. It isn't hijacking, because he dropped the controls, (I just picked 'em up)
I am beginning to think this slides a little into the "lies you tell children" category. Back-leading in class does not generally help, and immediately post-class, a large chunk of repetition is useful, but tedious. Once those muscles-in-training start crying out "OK, for pity's sake! We've nailed it!" I don't see any harm in some-one like Lory or Trouble taking over the controls. In the situation Lory described, you have to remember this is supposed to be fun! But some-one like me isn't ready, and could cause more harm than good (or at the very least, leave the guy grumbling, " another pain-in-the-neck who can't/won't follow a lead")
V.

[killingtime]

Wow, I'm surprised! There was me, awaiting a barage of complaints from the 'anti-backleading' brigade!

*sigh* Oh, alright then... Backleading is evil; and it's not a lesser evil like people who leave toothpaste tubes open but more of a greater evil like Hitler or telesales people. Extensive backleading will bring about the apocalypse and doom all of humanity. Even if you thought a bit of backleading was going to do no harm; somewhere a fairy died because you did that. I hope you are proud.

...

When I first started I was backlead all the time. I didn't realize that back then; I actively found those dancers who I really enjoyed dancing with. The reason I enjoyed dancing with them, in part, was they made me feel like I could dance. When I became more experienced it became apparent that these people were backleading me and then I found that some stopped backleading (who I still very much enjoy dancing with) and others didn't (who I struggled to dance with since it feels like we are fighting for control).

If all that people went to dancing for was learning to lead (or follow) then I'd say that backleading is entirely detrimental. But it isn't just about that; we go to dancing to have fun, socialize and just dance (at whatever level). I'd say it's better to have people who continue to enjoy dancing and take longer to improve than have people who stop coming because they feel they aren't having fun.

[Lory]

*sigh* Oh, alright then... Backleading is evil; and it's not a lesser evil like people who leave toothpaste tubes open but more of a greater evil like Hitler or telesales people. Extensive backleading will bring about the apocalypse and doom all of humanity. Even if you thought a bit of backleading was going to do no harm; somewhere a fairy died because you did that. I hope you are proud.

Ahhh, that's more like it!

[Martin]

Wow, I'm surprised! There was me, awaiting a barage of complaints from the 'anti-backleading' brigade!

I am in the anti-backleading brigade

BUT, in your case you thought about it, did it to help, and you have the skill and perception to do it when appropiate and do it well in a constructive way.

Many people "think" they have these skills, but few have, hence the general comments of "backleading is not good"

Just goes to show there IS a time and a place for it.

It is just really nice to know, that someone as tallented as you, still spends time thinking of beginners and takes the care to help them further.