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Reply With QuoteASOriginally Posted by Agente Secreto
We need to talk...
I can't agree. They dip/drop more, certainly, but the average quality isn't as good. I spent 5 months in Sydney during which time I was uncomfortable at the abandon with which dips & drops were taught. In the first lesson I attended I took lead side in beginners', and found myself learning a dip. Ladies didn't hear, didn't understand or didn't have the ability to implement the instruction to 'dip gently' and twice I had to catch 'launchers' who would otherwise have hit the floor and blamed me for not fielding them.
My experience was that it gave a lot more leads the confidence to dance moves in the mistaken belief that they did them adequately. Attending intermediate lessons as a follow, I would sit out dip/drop parts of the lesson as I didn't like going home aching from repeated mistakes (even if each lead's mistake is small, repeating a variety 20 times or so ends up sore). The teachers just didn't have the time to get in amongst the class and personally correct small but important details. For one move (salsa drop step-over) I was kicked three times before I put my hand up to ask the teacher to explain more clearly so leads didn't kick me on the step over! I also found the freestyle depended too heavily on signals for different sorts of dips & drops. I found myself being 'told off' for not knowing the signals for a dip/drop - (which made me want to scream 'if you can't lead it, don't dance it with someone you don't know!' - separate rant altogether). Before long I got to the point where I would only dance with very experienced dancers or total/near beginners. There were a significant minority (the most experienced) who I trusted to dip me without discomfort. Interestingly although not all asked first, I could tell within the first few bars of dancing with a lead for the first time whether I would trust them or not. Beginners rarely had the confidence to put the dips into freestyle, which made them a much safer bet. I ended up avoiding the middle layer as it was awkward to say 'please don't dip/drop me' when they'd seen me happily dipped/dropped by other leads.
Don't get me wrong - I love being dipped / dropped, and even found myself missing the Aussies when I got home as very few dancers in Glasgow dip/drop (me, anyway!) - but it's got to feel secure and comfortable, otherwise I'd rather live without.
NB: General upsetting of Aus dancers/teaching not intended, this was just my experience at a range of classes during my stay.
AS
We need to talk...
Did a class at Ceroc venue last night, where a dip type thing formed part of the routine. No options, no 'ask', no safety comments, and noone I got in the rotation seemed to do it right
As Maureen Lipman used to say in the BT adverts 'it's good to talk'.AS
We need to talk...
As long as we understand I'm not disagreeing that proper technique says the lady should bend the leg closest to the lead, the comment was made to respond to a point from Astro about having a week right leg and not being able to bend this properly.
I couldn't agree more with what has been stated.
Often, the best time to use a dip is at the end of a routine, or briefly during it in my view. You don't have to do dips to have a good time on the dancefloor. There are more than enough good moves and patterns as alternatives.
best
johnnyman
MD – two suggestions. One, let all leads know that you’ve got back problems when you start dancing with them. You don’t have to say “no dips and drops” but you’ll be letting them know there is a problem, and they should adjust accordingly. If it doesn’t, and they throw you around, then avoid dancing with them again. I had to explain about my sprained ankle at Storm, and had to refuse to do leans to the right - the leads mostly adapted and did leans to the left instead
Secondly, have a word with your teacher and ask them to show you a good basic technique for dips and drops, as you’re getting put into a lot of them and aren’t sure how to do it without getting injured. I was lucky enough to have a couple of experienced dancers teach me the basics fairly early on. I’ve not done a dips and drops workshop (as sadly I was injured for both of the last two that I’ve booked on), but this has helped me and I’ve been told I do them fairly well on occasion. On a personal level this should help to get you the immediate technique you require in the short-term, before you feel ready to do a proper workshop. But also, it might drop a hint to the teacher that they need to cover some safety and technique issues in class, as there may be a problem with it locally.
re. the back-bending move, I think that I know the sort of move you’re talking about, but a variation (sorry AS, this type of move does exist). I don’t know what it’s called, but the version I’ve come across you are supposed to grip the lead’s leg between yours, come onto your toes and then he holds onto your arms or hands whilst you lean back and drop your head (looks particularly good when the woman has long hair). The one they are doing with you MD sounds a bit different. However if a lead has been told quite clearly that you don’t want to do it, and they force you into it, that borders on assault in my book… they need reporting to the venue manager.
If this sort of behaviour is happening a lot MD, then I’d seriously think about changing your regular venue. From other posts, I gather that you’re pretty new to this dancing lark? Yet you seem to have come across some pretty rough and unpleasant leads – far more than I’ve come across in 3 years.
There's a whole 'classification' of moves called "laybacks" -
the lead should provide support on the lower back and partners should be facing each other, one foot between your partners'. Then the follower tries to keep their centre of gravity as close to the lead as they can while leaning backwards - the lead shifts their centre of gravity back to balance the follower's movements.
Technically this is done by the follower bending the knees and raising up on their toes while pressing their pelvis upwards and leaning back. The follower can get better balance by holding onto the leads arms (and/or clamping their thigh), but should never raise the arm above the head dramatically or throw the head back (this shifts the weight back more than the lead will anticipate).
As the follower is doing this, the lead should also be bending their knees, sitting back and counter-balancing the follower - very little actual muscle work except in keeping upright; the lead should never lean forward.
Lots to go wrong with this type of move; both partners must trust each other and balance each other. Something going wrong could result in torn back muscles in the lead, crunched spine of the follower and sore head as they bounce off the floor. Only to be taught in workshops IMO.
Someone goes to a workshop and does it on a social floor. Someone sees it and tries to emulate it. Someone else goes "oooh: cool"... and it grows. I would say it's a trend.Does anyone know why I’m suddenly coming across this crippling back bend move? It’s like it’s appeared out of nowhere – is it a common move which I’m coming across now because of where I am with my dancing, or is it just a trend?
Any time I've seen a dip taught from stage (I've never seen a drop, aerial or layback taught out-with a supervised workshop environment by people who know what they are talking about.) there has been plenty of safety spiel before, during and after. Normally an alternative is taught and everyone is told to ask their partners yae or nae on each rotation and on the dance floor.
Agree that there are many layback moves, but in none of them should the lead be forcing the bend of the follow and causing pain - I should have been a bit more specific in my postbecause yes follows can lean backwards but the lead should not be forcing the bend. Gadget gives a good description of the technique for the layback but at no stage should the follow be forced into something uncomfortable, they should not be 'crunched' and, even on the deepest layback, heads should not come into contact with the floor.
It is the norm. It's how most of us learn all sorts of moves by emulating people we think dance well, asking them to show us moves we like.
I'm glad that is your experience, but think that your venue is in the minority. I've seen dips and drops demo'd from the stage (I hesitate to say taught because little teaching was involved) with no pre-amble about safety and no mention of seeking the follows permission before embarking on the move. This has included several venues, Ceroc and independants. Correspondingly I have only been to a couple of venues (one Ceroc and one independant) where safety was a key feature. In addition to those 2 venues, where I dance regularly we always spend time on the safety points when we teach dips and the occasional drop.
MD you do seem to have had a rather turbulent start. Perhaps you should be speaking to the venue manager now and if that doesn't work time to go somewhere with more considerate leads.
I've experienced exactly this in Edinburgh.
No drops, nor aerials taught in regular classes.
I wonder if it's a Ceroc Scotland thing?
I have seen just one lay back in three years.
Twirly, that’s a good idea about asking for some help with my technique. I’ll try and grab the teacher next time.
I’m starting to say “please don’t bend me backwards” to the leads who I think are likely to do it, but I suppose it seems like a bit of a mouthful, especially when I’ve been the one to ask them for a dance. I was hoping someone on the forum would come up with an easy way to do this! Sounds like I’m just going to have to get on and do it. I suppose as I get to know more people and get more regular dances then it should be less of a problem at my weekly class, I’m just daunted at the thought of going to a social and having to say it before I dance with every stranger – and they’re mostly all strangers at socials at the moment! (I know, I know, I shouldn’t be such a shy little wuss!)
[quote=Twirly;467365]
re. the back-bending move, I think that I know the sort of move you’re talking about, but a variation (sorry AS, this type of move does exist). I don’t know what it’s called, but the version I’ve come across you are supposed to grip the lead’s leg between yours, come onto your toes and then he holds onto your arms or hands whilst you lean back and drop your head (looks particularly good when the woman has long hair). quote]
I’ve had this one done on me a few times as well (must be cos I’ve got long hair!) though this wasn’t the drop I meant. I don’t find this one quite as bad because I have control of my own dipping, so to speak, so I can make it a bit more of a lean back than a bend back, not make it very deep, and use slightly different back muscles. Also there is the 'pause and clamp' so I know it's coming up, which helps.
I think on the back bend I’m having problems with, the man’s right arm comes across his own body first…? The arm seems quite intrusive and high up my back, anyway. I can see it would look good if anyone other than me did it, so it's probably a cool move people would want to copy.
[…and note to self – try not to scream when dropped unexpectedly or fast!]
Yes, I am new to this dancing lark – been going a few months now, but I have embraced MJ with great enthusiasm. If I’ve had a turbulent start it’s probably because I am asking all sorts of people to dance with me, rather than playing it safe. I'm pretty happy, on the whole, and any frustrations/irritations I might feel which last more than ten seconds are normally with myself for not being good enough. I'm glad I found this forum, though, it's been very helpful.
I've been told that I’m at a ‘dangerous’ stage (woo hoo!) when I might get led all unsuspecting into moves I’ve never come across before – well, that happens quite a lot, which makes me I feel like I’m doing the MJ equivalent of going out and playing on the motorway - I ask the best men in any venue if they’ll have a dance with me and mostly they do (not a certain personage in a hat, obviously - he turned me down!) I hasten to add that I ask lots of other men too, but as far as the really good men are concerned I think I must get a certain kick out of being terrified…..having said that, I think I need more than my three WCS beginner lessons under my belt before I say the W word to Trampy again – our 'dance' last Saturday wasn’t so much playing in the fast lane as being thrown out of an aeroplane over shark-infested water with my hands and feet tied together.
This sounds like a particular one handed drop where the guy's right arm ends up going 'under' your right armpit and supporting under your back. In which case, the problem is probably that you are trying to bend 'over his arm' when you should be leaning on it - your back shouldn't be bent at all, or at least bent no more than the slight 'arch' needed to press up from the feet without collapsing your frame.
Note that I'm not sure I'm thinking about the same move you're talking about, and I'm not particularly expert in it if it is (I find I can't get my right arm where it's supposed to be without feeling like a contortionist - looking at other people, this seems to be a common problem with this move).
We had a choice of three on Tuesday at Nantwich. Dips, drops & leans are quiet common place in the North West.
Sounds like you're describing a hook. Again, as you say the follower shouldn't be forced into a bend by this move. The contortionist bit is because its taught that you turn the palm of your right hand towards the follow's back and like you I find that difficult so I dance it with the back of a flat hand in the middle of the follows back - works better for me.
Moondancer, if I remember right you said you were going to Southport. Come seek me out in the Blues Room and we'll try and replicate the move (without the pain). Once we know what it is we'll be better fixed to help you help leads get it right without crippling you
Yes, that's what I do as well - but I think doing so actually changes the move significantly. In particular, I don't think a follow could possibly think they were supposed to bend over my arm the way I do the move, whereas I could understand it with the twisty-contortion one.
, but in that move, you are at right angles to your partner; how can you "clamp" then?
If the hand is higher on your back, then it's a sure sign that you are intended to 'settle' into it, keeping your body-line straight; tip your pelvis forward and up when doing any dip/lean/drop and it will help keep body line, help with your "frame" and stop you bending backwards.
The connection on your back is just like a connection through your hand - it's not a passive thing and works soooo much better when you press against it just slightly to give as much as you are feeling: you will become much more sensitive to the lead.
For that (right handed) one-arm hook drop, I try to form a supportive platform with my fore-arm providing most of the support in the middle of the back where the back of my hand is on/below the follower's far shoulder. Since it's the back of the hand, you can't 'grip' or hold on to your partner, but as long as you don't tip them off, it does give a stable and secure support.
If I use the palm and inside of the fore-arm, then the follower has to be parallel to my right shoulder rather than directly in-front of me and it's quite hard not to twist away at the start of the move.
{Of course I do them about one in a million, so I wouldn't take this as any form of "how to" - see a teacher who knows how if you want to learn them.}
Agente Secreto, I would love to seek you out in the Blues Room, but I'm not planning to go to Southport until May/June 2009 - you won't remember me by then, will you? I would be instantly struck by your cute hat and mask, of course, which must be fairly unforgettable...
I don't think I'm describing this back bend thing very well. The man's right arm comes across the front of his own body, then across the back of mine, (I'm on his left, with him turned a little towards me rather than side by side), whilst his own left arm is doing something else, holding my left hand backwards and applying pressure to bend me, I think, something like that - I'm usually noticing the right hand behind me rather than exactly what the left is doing, but the 'forcing' bit comes from the left, pushing me over what must be the back of his right hand. No armpits are involved. I can't be intended to settle into the hand surely, because I'm definitely being bent over it.
It's so hard to describe these moves!
The drop I (and also AS, I think) am talking about looks like the one at 0:31 in this clip:
To fit it better with your description, I'll add that the man can take your left hand with his as an additional support, but he should not be pushing you down with it.
There's a world of difference between Howard leading those drops and a lead who's never been to a drop workshop.
Scary.
It would be nice if everyone learned moves at proper workshops, but to be honest, I don't see that as a move that's unreasonable to teach in a standard class at a reasonably accomplished venue. That's certainly where I learned it, for example.
(I'm interested to see Howard also teaching it with the 'back of the hand' support position: about 5 years ago a Ceroc teacher told me very firmly that I should be doing it the other way, so I assumed that was still the 'official' method...)
Agent 000 never forgets. Will be wearing hat and raincoat in the Blues Room when you turn up next year. People will no doubt think me a pratt but I'll get over the feelings of hurt soon enough afterwards
I'd go speak with the teacher at your local venue, show him/her what people are trying to lead you into and get their advice. Difficult to say what the move is from the descriptions and no way to give advice on how to remedy problems without seeing it first hand.
Just as long as you remember that no-one should be forcing you to do anything, a dance lead is merely a polite invitation for you to follow not an instruction that you do so or else. And no partner should be hurting you - anyone that does should be told immediately because your body is more important than their ego.
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