If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

[Agente Secreto]

Oh i forgot to say........i have got to learn how to drop on the proper leg. I always use the outside leg as the one taking the leg and this is making some of the moves twisty/difficult.

Any ideas how i can do that. I have tried but the inside leg is a lot weaker than the other leg for some reason.?

I have the same problem - a weak right leg, probably originally caused by technically bad drops.

There are some leads who can drop you from the other side, so that you would be using your left leg, instead of the right one that is normally used.

Ladies, not sure that it should necessarily make a difference what leg you bend. I danced one night with a lady who had a physical impairment on her right leg and she asked me dip/drop her. When I asked about her right leg she said try me. I did and she easily did everything that I threw at her taking her weight using her bent left leg. I'm not a follow but I'd say the key thing is having a strong core and using both legs (one bent one straight) together to take the bulk of your own weight as you dip back. If you use both together there should be no twisting motion, this will only happen if have all the weight on one leg.

I for one would not lead the dips/drops on the wrong side, for many of them it would be difficult for both leads and follows because you'd be in positions you were not used to. As an example, I learnt the ballroom drop on the wrong side for a cabaret and it took me ages to dance it in freestyle after that, all of my follows got totally confused when I led them into the wrong side for the drop

[David Franklin]

Ladies, not sure that it should necessarily make a difference what leg you bend.

The only "big" difference it makes is to the look of the move - the advantage of bending the inside leg is that it is 'hidden' behind the outside leg, so you don't compromise the visual leg line.

The other significant difference I see is that if the man needs to control the lady's balance, it is more likely that he'll have to do that by providing extra 'lift' via her right arm. For a lot of drops this is harder than if he were providing lift via the left arm. (I don't think this is actually a big issue if the man's reasonably aware of the balance, but if he isn't, it might be).

For the same reason 1-armed drops (which usually use the lady's right arm) are often actually easier to control if the lady bends the outer leg, although they still look better if she bends the inner one.

[NZ Monkey]

The only "big" difference it makes is to the look of the move - the advantage of bending the inside leg is that it is 'hidden' behind the outside leg, so you don't compromise the visual leg line.

That's definitely true, but there's another advantage of using the inside leg that I don't think been mentioned yet.

The lady should be as close to the man as possible (preferably touching) through the drop, and if she does then there is little difference between which leg the lady uses for safety's sake. If for whatever reason the lady is away from the guy, then there's usually a little less torque if the lady is taking her weight on the inside leg, and that difference can be quite important if it's a close call.

[David Franklin]

That's definitely true, but there's another advantage of using the inside leg that I don't think been mentioned yet.

The lady should be as close to the man as possible (preferably touching) through the drop, and if she does then there is little difference between which leg the lady uses for safety's sake. If for whatever reason the lady is away from the guy, then there's usually a little less torque if the lady is taking her weight on the inside leg, and that difference can be quite important if it's a close call.

I don't see how that follows - as far as I can see, it's harder for the man to apply corrective torque to the far side (which is the side you need if the lady uses the inside leg). Simply put, what makes things easiest for the follow is for the man to be applying force verticlly, with his hand directly above the bit of the follower he's lifting. It's obviously harder if that bit of the follower is further away.

What is true (and I'd forgotten), is that it's much easier to keep close together if the woman uses the inside leg, because once she's planted it at the start of the drop, the man can safely position himself right by it. If she's using the outside leg, it's harder to be close without risking the inner leg colliding during the actual drop.

[geoff332]

I think I'm pretty good at leading drops and dips... for basically the same reasons as NZ Monkey mentioned: in NZ, they are a regular part of the majority of intermediate routines. I have probably been taught drops in over 100 classes; more if you include leans and laybacks. In every class the teacher goes through safety and technique. I would say every dancer from down-under has a very solid grounding in how to do dips, drops and leans within their first year of dancing intermediate. Those that pay attention in classes will be pretty good at them.

A few things I've noticed that I find really useful.

1. The primary movement in any drop or dip is straight down. Most of the horizontal movement is done in the set-up or is an illusion made by the follow bending their body. For the vast majority of drops, once you are in position, the follow's centre of gravity should not travel horizontally. This can be messed up by either the lead or the follow.

2. I've seen a lot of leads lead drops through brute strength: often leading a follow who does not know how to drop into a bad position and relying on their strength to get them out of this. Doing that is arrogant, foolish and dangerous. And it encourages bad technique from the follows.

3. Most drops are relatively easy for the lead: it's a matter of balance and control rather than strength. Even in a tango drop, the follow should hold a fair proportion of their own weight. The lead's job, when all's well, is to provide balance, to add a bit of extra power. When things go wrong, the lead should be in position to recover the move so no-one gets injured: similar to spotting in weightlifting.

4. Related to the balance issue, the centre of gravity is absolutely essential. For most drops, this means the lead should have their feet well spaced and their weight on the back of the ball of their foot. The follow is usually between the lead's feet. You need to be close together. The follow should drop on the inside leg to help the balance.

5. 90% of doing a drop properly is getting the set-up right. For the lead, it means getting their base established and getting the follow into position. For the follow, it means getting into position and on balance. If either partner isn't set properly, the drop is a lot harder and a lot more dangerous. Again, for the vast majority of drops, once the lead is set, they move relatively little. Even in those moves where the lead does travel, the set-up is absolutely critical.

6. The drop itself is led like most moves: primarily invitation with a little force. For a tango drop, I raise my hands as I get the follow in front of me, then lower my hands leading them to drop. If they, for any reason, want to "not drop" all they have to do is not bend their leg. The two worst things that can happen are for the lead to try to force the follow to drop or for the follow to drop without a lead.

7. Pretty much everything I've written here is true of 95% of drops. I can bend most of those rules with partners I know well and who know me well. On the other hand, most drops and dips aren't that complex and the guidelines here will make them work better.

Geoff.

[NZ Monkey]

Simply put, what makes things easiest for the follow is for the man to be applying force verticlly, with his hand directly above the bit of the follower he's lifting. It's obviously harder if that bit of the follower is further away.

In terms of static forces applied that's true, but in practice I find that its still "easier" if the the arms of both dancers are straight and this happens more often with the outside arms than the inside ones for obvious reasons. Our bodies are better at coping with forces that way. You'll never find a good rock climber who habitually carries his weight on an arm that isn't either fully locked out or fully locked in.

In the thousand-and-one variations of the basic ballroom drop out there, I've always been taught to anchor both hands at the hip for instance. This means that while the follower isn't hanging from something directly above her, my base is much stronger and the muscles in my back are less likely to be strained as I'm not using my arms as much as I would if I were holding them slightly apart. I'm pretty sure this is also an easier position for the follower as there tends to be less "wobble", although I've only been on the receiving end of it a few times.

If there is an air gap, then the follower can compensate a little by rolling her outside shoulder to the outside if her weight is on the inner leg, and if both dancers can hold their posture then they can still be ok. If her weight is on the outside leg then the leader has to rely more on muscle power, which is more dangerous. Ideally, there should be no gap in the first place.

Obviously if you go too far form each other you're doomed no matter what. In hindsight, torque is probably the wrong word. I simply meant that I think I tend to be tipped over if the leg taking the weight is the outside one most often.

What is true (and I'd forgotten), is that it's much easier to keep close together if the woman uses the inside leg, because once she's planted it at the start of the drop, the man can safely position himself right by it. If she's using the outside leg, it's harder to be close without risking the inner leg colliding during the actual drop.

[Yliander]

Ladies, not sure that it should necessarily make a difference what leg you bend. I danced one night with a lady who had a physical impairment on her right leg and she asked me dip/drop her. When I asked about her right leg she said try me. I did and she easily did everything that I threw at her taking her weight using her bent left leg.

the reason to use the inside leg in dips in addition to it looking nicer is that it keeps the lady's balance point closer to the guy which provides a more stable stance for all and keeps the lady in closer to the guy which also makes things easier to save. A

lso when taking weight on outside leg is does tend to turn the lady a little in that direction taking her away from the lead - which can be slightly problematic

[David Franklin]

In terms of static forces applied that's true, but in practice I find that its still "easier" if the the arms of both dancers are straight and this happens more often with the outside arms than the inside ones for obvious reasons. Our bodies are better at coping with forces that way. You'll never find a good rock climber who habitually carries his weight on an arm that isn't either fully locked out or fully locked in.

I see where you're coming from, but personally I've pretty much stopped doing drops with locked arms - I don't like how it feels, particularly for my elbow joint, and I don't have any issues with the strength side of things.

If there is an air gap, then the follower can compensate a little by rolling her outside shoulder to the outside if her weight is on the inner leg, and if both dancers can hold their posture then they can still be ok. If her weight is on the outside leg then the leader has to rely more on muscle power, which is more dangerous.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but again, my personal stance on this has evolved towards "if you're not happy to control a drop using muscle power, don't do it".

Now in both cases, I think I'm right for me, given the people I dance with. But it's one reason why 'best practice' will depend on the individuals.

[Nessiemonster]

Lots of content in this thread about technique (which is what the thread is about!), but could I also add a little something about etiquette.

PLEASE don't put us in dips/drops/leans if you have a mobile phone in your pocket. It's Really Uncomfortable! Take the phone out and leave it with your bag/coat - you don't need it while dancing.

I had a couple of guys who had phones in their pockets put me in leans/dips at a recent event and it really spoilt the dances for me. Especially as one guy was pulling me in quite hard against his leg for a lean. I had no way to get out of it. Unfortunately I didn't get the opportunity to mention it to either partner at the time.

[CheesyRobMan]

I had a couple of guys who had phones in their pockets put me in leans/dips at a recent event and it really spoilt the dances for me. Especially as one guy was pulling me in quite hard against his leg for a lean. I had no way to get out of it. Unfortunately I didn't get the opportunity to mention it to either partner at the time.

"Is that a phone in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"

[Astro]

I for one would not lead the dips/drops on the wrong side, for many of them it would be difficult for both leads and follows because you'd be in positions you were not used to. As an example, I learnt the ballroom drop on the wrong side for a cabaret and it took me ages to dance it in freestyle after that, all of my follows got totally confused when I led them into the wrong side for the drop

Just an idea, but why don't leads vary which side they use, say 50/50 then the follows would not be putting too much strain on their right leg all the time.
They'd be using their left leg for 50% of drops, and the left leg would be the nearest leg to the lead for optimum balance.

It's true though, once you learn one way the muscle memory retains it and it is hard to change. By the time I've remembered to use my left leg, my right less is already doing the business - unless I've sabotaged.

[martingold]

Take the phone out and leave it with your bag/coat - you don't need it while dancing.

sadly i do need my phone in my pocket when i am dancing as i am on 24 hour call out at work i do try to keep it in my left pocket though so it doesnt get in the way

[Tiggerbabe]

sadly i do need my phone in my pocket when i am dancing as i am on 24 hour call out at work i do try to keep it in my left pocket though so it doesnt get in the way

I'm intrigued, what do you do if it rings in the middle of a dance?

[Steven666]

sadly i do need my phone in my pocket when i am dancing as i am on 24 hour call out at work i do try to keep it in my left pocket though so it doesnt get in the way

Shouldn't that be the right pocket for leans etc if you have to carry it?

EDIT - Or are 100% of you leans where the follower is on your right hand side?

[pmjd]

Depends if it just rings or vibrates too, you could ask Claire S

I do have a tendancy to keep my mobile on me alot, usually in my left pocket though so it doesn't usually affect any of the dips or leans I occasionally do. Think I'm just a bit paranoid about it getting stolen as it did happen to an ex of mine at Southport one year, her mobile was stolen from her bag

[Steven666]

usually in my left pocket though so it doesn't usually affect any of the dips or leans I occasionally do.

But how would you know? Do you always get feedback if your partner felt the bulge?

[Gadget]

Personally I only dip rather than drop, and the lead for it is still a lead: an invitation. It's up to the follower how much they want to trust me and even if they want to dip at all.

Occasionally I'll do a lean, but I don't think they look very pretty unless it's T rather than the normal side-to-side.. and that requires a follower who knows how to do it or one that dosn't mind getting real UCP.

Drops I never have felt the need for - like arials. I'm a blusier type of dancer: too long away from my partner

[Nessiemonster]

"Is that a phone in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"

If they were just pleased to see me they were seriously deformed!!!

sadly i do need my phone in my pocket when i am dancing as i am on 24 hour call out at work i do try to keep it in my left pocket though so it doesnt get in the way

Apologies - there's always an exception. (And bummer for being on 24 hours call.)

Actually both guys had their phones in their left pockets. One guy did a lean with me onto his left side. The other dipped/dropped me on to his left leg and seemed to have unusually deep pockets (good for not losing the phone, bad for doing anything where you're taking the follow's body onto that leg).

I guess then if you need/want to keep your phone on you, just please be aware and don't do moves where it will be in the way.

(PMJD, I've never been aware of your phone when we've danced. )

[Moondancer]

I would very much like to be asked if I want to be dropped – at the moment I’m getting dropped all over the place, and mostly I’m pulled/pushed into position. This isn’t normally a problem…other than the occasion which I commented on in another thread when I was asking for advice on the “you-want-me-to-do-WHAT?” horizontal drop!

However, recently quite a few leaders have been trying to put me into a droppy thing which involves me having to arch my back quite high up over their arm or elbow or something. I can’t bend backwards because of a back problem, which means I don’t really do this move properly and try to come out of it quickly with a “sorry, can’t do that one”, but sometimes the lead tries to forcibly bend me over backwards, so I end up shrieking “NO!” as I am about to be crippled (even so I had terrible backache one night when I got home).

I have started to ask not to be bent backwards before I start dancing with people who I have watched bending other people about, but is there a good/tactful way of doing this? I have otherwise reasonably enjoyed the drops and leans which have been coming my way, so I don’t want to just say “no drops please”.

Is there a name for that back-bending move so I could just ask people not to do that one? If men asked first then I could say yes to drops, but no to the whatever-its-called type of move.

Does anyone know why I’m suddenly coming across this crippling back bend move? It’s like it’s appeared out of nowhere – is it a common move which I’m coming across now because of where I am with my dancing, or is it just a trend?

I think I’ve only come across one drop in my class since I started MJ in January, and that was very recently (a sailor step across or something?) plus there was a lean taught in class a few weeks back. I find the rarity quite surprising considering the number of times I get dropped in freestyle time. I know there are dip workshops, but at this stage I don’t feel that they are really for me. I’d like to see teachers in class stress some of the points being made on the forum about safety.

[Agente Secreto]

I would very much like to be asked if I want to be dropped – at the moment I’m getting dropped all over the place, and mostly I’m pulled/pushed into position.

I have started to ask not to be bent backwards before I start dancing with people who I have watched bending other people about, but is there a good/tactful way of doing this? I have otherwise reasonably enjoyed the drops and leans which have been coming my way, so I don’t want to just say “no drops please”.

I always ask, and would not expect to be dipping or dropping anyone without explicit consent (including my wife when we dance). I have had a couple of ladies say to me on starting a dance that they do not do drops, and I always respect that, but I suspect that some of the more inconsiderate leads don't think that way.

However, recently quite a few leaders have been trying to put me into a droppy thing which involves me having to arch my back quite high up over their arm or elbow or something.

I know many dips and drops, and none of them involve bending the lady backwards - the body is simply not built to accommodate that action! so that says to me the leads have got it wrong.
When we teach drops where I dance we always stress the importance of the lady being like a board, with her back straight and pelvis thrust slightly forward - we never have our ladies bent in two. There are a lot of people that see others doing these moves and then copy them badly, as you say not many classes include them as standard possibly because it is difficult to do them justice in a normal class night.

If a lead is trying to dip/drop you without asking you can always take charge a bit by taking a couple of steps backwards and you'll spoil his move. Then you could simply say sorry but I like to be asked before people dip/drop me. If he takes offence he's not worth dancing with. If he's at all considerate he'll say sorry and carry on, asking your permission for his next attempt.