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Thread: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

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    If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Attended Sara Whites workshop today, taken by the very talented and quite honestly fantastic Tor.

    It was a dips, drops and seducers workshop and i must say, i have done some previously but never learnt as much as i did today as did DTS.

    This got me thinking. I actually get dipped and dropped quite a bit now that i have taken some of my weight off and to be honest, not many know how to do it properly. I didn't realise how bad some people were till i did the class today.

    So i have some questions......

    Can you leads honestly say you know what your doing? How much training have you done?

    How many of you have actually taken workshops on safety and technique before dropping women or dipping them.

    Is this not necessary do we think or should it be made something compulsory even.

    Thoughts guys.?

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Yeah in all honesty I must agree, this was the very best workshop I have attended on dips, drops and leans.

    I have attended workshops at a load of weekenders and this was, with no doubt, the very best I have ever attended.

    We all were dipping our partners like a liqourice stick in a bag of sherbet.

    Trouble did nearly every dip on me, and my knees are shot to bits, these knees took me across the Falklands, ok it was a couple of years ago , on a Penquin spotting trip, no Argies in sight thank the Lord.

    Excellent workshop if Tor is ever doing anything again we will be there, she was OUTSTANDING.

    Another super service by Sarah Whites Jivenites.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Attended Sara Whites workshop today, taken by the very talented and quite honestly fantastic Tor.
    do I look butch

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post

    Excellent workshop if Tor is ever doing anything again we will be there, she was OUTSTANDING.



    X
    IMHO she the best female lead in the country

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    I have done a few workshops on dips and drops but rarely use them. Mainly because I lack confidence and practice in doing some of the ones I learned on a regular enough basis to feel comfortable doing them.

    Also the whole dips, drops etc is a two way thing, follows have to learn how to do things properly too and not suicidally throw themselves at you and expect you to catch them

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Can you leads honestly say you know what your doing? How much training have you done?
    Dips and drops are standard intermediate moves Down Under. Odds are you'll do one dip or drop in nearly every intermediate class.

    The end result, hopefully unsurprisingly, is that punters tend to be much better at them than their UK counterparts.

    How many of you have actually taken workshops on safety and technique before dropping women or dipping them.
    Technique and general safety tips are delivered on a regular basis, in class. This gives longer term exposure to said technique and safety tips, which can only be a good thing.

    Is this not necessary do we think or should it be made something compulsory even.
    We have "moving up" workshops and one of the things covered in these is the basic tango drop (note that this is a new move for the beginners - they don't learn it in beginners classes). In a sense then it is compulsory here, although I wouldn't put too much weight in that.

    My personal opinion is that given a blank slate to start the whole MJ scene with I'd make such teaching compulsory. That said, I think Ceroc in the UK at least has painted itself into a corner, and any change would not be practical.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    It takes about 20 minutes to be taught (and about 30 minutes to practice) the basic principles that will allow a good lead to do 90% of dips/drops safely. Unfortunately the tendancy (at least up here) is for less experienced teachers to teach drops form stage just to look good. I can't remember the last time I saw a drop taught properly. A side effect is that if the punters are getting drops as part of their usual lessons, why are they going to spend serious money to do them again at a workshop ..... as they have no idea as to how badly they are doing them?

    Part 72 to the 120 Part series, "Why Drops are Evil"

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    My personal opinion is that dips drops and seducers should be taught in specialist workshops by someone who is trained specifically in the teaching of said moves
    The first thing the lead needs to learn is about their frame and where their follow needs to be when doing the move
    The problem with teaching them in a normal class situation is there are normally too many people for the teacher to take the necessary notice of every one to make sure that its being done safely

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    My personal opinion is that dips drops and seducers should be taught in specialist workshops by someone who is trained specifically in the teaching of said moves

    IMO ordinary class nights just don't can't do justice to teaching complicated drops. If done correctly then there are all the safety points to include, and these are issues which shouldn't be rushed through. IMO a leader should ask if a follower is comfortable with drops, and followers if they don't feel safe, should feel comfortable about telling the leader not to do drops or they decide to sabotage a move they don't feel safe with.

    I agree with the comments about Tor/Dai, she is a fabulous leader.
    if you love the life you live then you'll get a lot more done

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Important issue. Speaking for myself;

    - Yes I have done workshops that have covered some drops etc. in a fair amount of detail (e.g. Howard and Nicola's all day blues workshop)
    - That said I wouldn't claim to be an expert and could certainly learn a lot more
    - I only lead such moves if I think it is safe to do so on a relatively uncrowded dance-floor with experienced followers. If in doubt I ask first.
    - I only use a very small number of such moves that I have practiced quite a lot and am confident about. They are also moves where the follower normally takes most of his or her own weight. If I am not confident about such a move I simply don't try it.
    - In social dancing I will quite often use no dips, drops or seducers, especially if the floor is relatively crowded and / or I am dancing with a relative beginner.
    - The most I would normally expect to do is one or two dips, drops or seducers per track but then only if appropriate musically, and if the other conditions mentioned above apply.

    I like to think that I am pretty cautious and safety concious in my approach but one cannot deny that there is an element of heightened risk involved and an accident could happen. Any activity has risks and rewards, it's all a question of being aware of the risks, doing what you can to minimise them and trying to maintain a sense of balance (both literally and figuratively).
    Last edited by Lost Leader; 14th-April-2008 at 02:35 PM. Reason: english etc.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyred View Post
    IMO ordinary class nights just don't can't do justice to teaching complicated drops. If done correctly then there are all the safety points to include, and these are issues which shouldn't be rushed through. IMO a leader should ask if a follower is comfortable with drops, and followers if they don't feel safe, should feel comfortable about telling the leader not to do drops or they decide to sabotage a move they don't feel safe with.
    If only everyone would follow your advice, Rubyred.

    I've had such trouble with drops that I just don't bother with them anymore. Most leads know I don't do drops, and I always make a point of telling leads who don't know me beforehand.

    It's not as if they are even needed. One can have fantastic dances without drops.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    and I always make a point of telling leads who don't know me beforehand.
    Must be reassuing to followers that men rarely ask if your OK with dips & drops?

    As for drops myself I like being put in them as long as I know the lead can take the bit of weight I cannot(/choose not dependant on dance partner) to take myself.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Attended Sara Whites workshop today, taken by the very talented and quite honestly fantastic Tor.

    It was a dips, drops and seducers workshop and i must say, i have done some previously but never learnt as much as i did today as did DTS.

    This got me thinking. I actually get dipped and dropped quite a bit now that i have taken some of my weight off and to be honest, not many know how to do it properly. I didn't realise how bad some people were till i did the class today.

    So i have some questions......

    Can you leads honestly say you know what your doing? How much training have you done?

    How many of you have actually taken workshops on safety and technique before dropping women or dipping them.

    Is this not necessary do we think or should it be made something compulsory even.

    Thoughts guys.?

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    I enjoyed watching all of you dipping and dropping all afternoon. Even managed to catch a couple of shots of you on the camera and the video. Will be ransoming them off at Southport.

    With all these new guys top choose from just remember those of us that have been dipping and dropping you for a while now

    On teaching at normal class nights, we sometimes teach simple dips/drops but we always start by reminding everyone of the basics such as the frame, body position, seeking permission etc. Oh and my personal favourite which is to ensure that the follow doesn't simply launch into a dip when she thinks one is coming. It does take longer but is worth the effort.

    When I travel round and go to different venues I'm horrified at how dips and drops are taught with little regard for the core elements that make them safe. Went to one nameless venue along the M4 corridor one night and we were taught a ginger drop very quickly (it was the last move and time was running on). I then watched in horror as for the rest of the night what is a relativey simple and safe drop was massacred, ladies were dropped right into the path of others, ladies chose seemingly random times to drop themselves, etc.

    I think to do justice to the more complex moves you need a proper workshop. I'm largely self taught, but I'd never picked up the finer points of the moves until trying to disect them to teach them. I'd been to a couple of sessions at Southport (some of which were better than others - including a good one from Peter Philips) but had come up with a repertoire of drops almost by accident. The fact is that people will dip and drop regardless of whether they've been to a workshop so it does come down to class organisers to make sure that we regularly cover the basics.

    On dip and drop etiquette, I always make a point of asking every time I dance - even if its someone I dance with a lot. If I'm confident in the connection I build with a new partner I will lead drops on the first/second dance(after asking), but some ladies I will never dip/drop because I'm not confident that they'd follow me correctly. Picking up on Easily Led's point about busy floors, if its packed I'll dip but not drop, especially if its an UCP track.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Attended Sara Whites workshop today, taken by the very talented and quite honestly fantastic Tor.

    It was a dips, drops and seducers workshop and i must say, i have done some previously but never learnt as much as i did today as did DTS.
    So what was so different about this workshop?

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Must be reassuing to followers that men rarely ask if your OK with dips & drops?
    Your right, it's not reassuring, because I'm rarely asked and that's why I stipulate first. But I don't always remember to do so.
    The rule is supposed to be that the lead will ask the follow if he/she would like to be dropped.
    Technically the follow should not need to say anything. If the lead does not ask, the follow should be able to assume that the lead will not do any drops.
    In practice though, it doesn't always happen. leads can forget to ask.

    As for drops myself I like being put in them as long as I know the lead can take the bit of weight I cannot(/choose not dependant on dance partner) to take myself.
    This is the problem.
    If the wrong technique is used, the follow can end up taking too much of their own weight.
    And, especially if the lead freezes the drop for a few beats, it can cause my knee to ping, or my thigh to strain.
    Then there's the getting up. Some leads expect the follows to, more or less, get up by themselves. this can cause pulled muscles on the thigh and back and damage the knee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post

    On dip and drop etiquette, I always make a point of asking every time I dance - even if its someone I dance with a lot.
    This is a good thing to do, as the follow may be carrying an injury.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    So what was so different about this workshop?
    You really would have to attend a workshop to find out but i can simply tell you this...

    She concentrated on safety and technique.

    She gave tips on how to ease weight for the man.

    Sara showed women how to work on their core and practice moves to help this.

    Tor ensure that she watched each man do the drop and advised individually when things were not right. Sara did the same for women.

    It was just a very clever workshop showing little tricks that leads dont know or may know but i have not seen before. I learnt the lead and follow moves on every single one and i can quite honestly say that i should be able to do some lovely dips and drops on any weighted follow as i know the correct way to hold them (and as long as they know the correct way to follow) which i forgot to say is just as important.

    As for pics/videos that may have been done or end up being displayed, enjoy the one of me doing a steal. I call it the monkey bar but thats not what its called of course, just reminds me of one. It was completely the wrong move but i loved it.

    Oh i forgot to say........i have got to learn how to drop on the proper leg. I always use the outside leg as the one taking the leg and this is making some of the moves twisty/difficult.

    Any ideas how i can do that. I have tried but the inside leg is a lot weaker than the other leg for some reason.?
    Last edited by Trouble; 14th-April-2008 at 05:54 PM.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Oh i forgot to say........i have got to learn how to drop on the proper leg. I always use the outside leg as the one taking the leg and this is making some of the moves twisty/difficult.

    Any ideas how i can do that. I have tried but the inside leg is a lot weaker than the other leg for some reason.?
    I have the same problem - a weak right leg, probably originally caused by technically bad drops.

    There are some leads who can drop you from the other side, so that you would be using your left leg, instead of the right one that is normally used.

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I have the same problem - a weak right leg, probably originally caused by technically bad drops.

    There are some leads who can drop you from the other side, so that you would be using your left leg, instead of the right one that is normally used.
    I'm the same. Is it because we spin mostly on our left legs, so they have become stronger?

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I'm the same. Is it because we spin mostly on our left legs, so they have become stronger?
    I noticed on Saturday I seem to be spinning on my right leg Steven.

    Do muscles get strong from overuse or weak from overuse I wonder?

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    So what was so different about this workshop?
    Progressive - first leans, then dips, then drops.
    Individual attention, and emphasis on feedback during rotation.
    More emphasis on detail than lots of different moves.
    Mostly leadable freestyle moves.
    High standard of people doing the workshop. Noone there who was held back by connection/footwork issues, so no time wasted explaining basic moves.

    Sean

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    Re: If your going to drop, seduce or dip me, do it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Any ideas how i can do that. I have tried but the inside leg is a lot weaker than the other leg for some reason.?
    not sure how to get in the habit of using the correct leg to go into dips - it has to do with where your feet are prior to the dip

    but have got a good exercise for strengthening your leg

    I'm not good a written descriptions - but going to give this a go - used this help strengthen my left leg

    if you aren't sure of your balance - start in bare feet - but if you feel comfortable - start in your dance shoes

    stand side on to a chair with the leg you are wanting to work on - and rest your hand on it don't hold on it's only really there for reassurance.

    engage your core, point and extend your outside leg along the floor keeping your body straight & core engaged as you bend your weight bearing leg - to start with just take i a little way down and then up - remembering the whole time all the things you are to do with you body in a dip.

    build up to doing it holding it at various depths and working to take it lower. helps to build strength and balance.

    hope that makes sense - if it doesn't - I can try a further explanation or ask me when you see me and I can show

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