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Thread: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

  1. #41
    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    One method of splitting dancers by level in a fair way that I've seen in amateur ballroom comps is for the first heat of the competition to contain absolutely everyone and for the panel of judges to assign every couple a category A (advanced), B (intermediate) or C (novice).

    If you've previously won a level, you are automatically assigned to the higher level, or if you've previously placed in A you stay there automatically, and if you've only been dancing 6 months you are automatically assigned to C, so those people don't need to dance in the first heat, and there is a rough quota of people for each category.

    That way, the judges (completely unbiasedly, of course ) can assess who they think is a suitable level for their category, and the only people at a disadvantage are those who have not improved enough for the category they are automatically assigned to.

    I've seen this work well in ballroom, but would it work for MJ? I'm not sure because the criteria for judging are so different. What do you lot think?

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Of course its fixed!! Why else didnt I win last year!! lol

    I think there is an unintentional biased by judges towards people that they know are good dancers. Only a thought, not saying that is the case.

    Tessalicious is looking yummy today!

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    One method of splitting dancers by level in a fair way that I've seen in amateur ballroom comps is for the first heat of the competition to contain absolutely everyone and for the panel of judges to assign every couple a category A (advanced), B (intermediate) or C (novice).
    If I wanted to win a catogory, I would dance like a novice in the first heat.... then later dance properly...

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    If I wanted to win a catogory, I would dance like a novice in the first heat.... then later dance properly...
    Im still waiting for my 'later'

  5. #45
    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    If I wanted to win a catogory, I would dance like a novice in the first heat.... then later dance properly...
    Don't you think that judges are looking at not just moves danced (which can be faked) but posture, balance, style, and musicality (which once you dance with them are quite difficult to 'dumb down')? If so, surely they'd spot this kind of behaviour and place you accordingly?

    Alternatively, if any couple demonstrates too drastic an improvement between heat one and heat two, they could be marked down for cheating, quite easily.

    Of course, in ballroom it is choreographed and the routine doesn't change between heats, so it's easier to spot and regulate there - one reason why this isn't instantly transferable between dance styles.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Don't you think that judges are looking at not just moves danced (which can be faked) but posture, balance, style, and musicality (which once you dance with them are quite difficult to 'dumb down')? If so, surely they'd spot this kind of behaviour and place you accordingly?

    Alternatively, if any couple demonstrates too drastic an improvement between heat one and heat two, they could be marked down for cheating, quite easily.

    Of course, in ballroom it is choreographed and the routine doesn't change between heats, so it's easier to spot and regulate there - one reason why this isn't instantly transferable between dance styles.
    Are we creating a problem or do judges think there maybe a problem with Intermediates ?

    Around 50% of dancers (ex lucky dip) are going to compete in the 'Intermediates' this year

    Maybe one or two last year shouldnt have been competiting in the intermediate but I wasnt aware of a massive influx of advanced dancers

    The standard between the intermediate and advance/open was quite noticable in my opinion or did I miss something ?

    Were there lots of people who came 5th in 2006 in advance/open dancing in the intermediate in 2007?

  7. #47
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    Have just seen this. It's a ballsy move.. I just hope they have the bite to back up their bark!!
    Agreed. If this rule is actually put into practice (and applied fairly) it can only be a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    For me, the lines aren't as blurred as Baruch would suggest... Intermediate dancers are fairly easy to see... if U are going to advanced workshops, etc... with comps in mind, it would strike me that U are an advanced dancer.
    Not necessarily. You and I may have our opinions as to who is intermediate and who is advanced, but it's the rules that provide the actual definitions. The rules should clearly define who should be in which category, but IMO they don't. It's quite easy to envisage someone being disqualified but complaining, possibly legitimately, that they were acting within the rules as they currently stand.

    Here are the rules from the Ceroc Champs web site:

    Intermediate: "This section is recommended for those who have danced for six months or more but do not wish to compete with the Advanced dancers."
    Advanced: "It is recommended for those who want to compete with the best."

    No specific criteria there other than whether or not you want to compete with "the best". It's hard to see how this can be used to divide the intermediates from the advanced in terms of ability. If any other criteria are to be used to decide whether or not to disqualify a couple, then they should be made explicit in the rules. Saying that the judges "feel" you should be dancing at a higher level isn't exactly helpful if there are no specific reasons given as to why you should be at a higher level.

    There's a similar problem with other competitions too.

    A Chance 2 Dance
    Intermediate: "recommended for those who have danced for 6 months or more but do not feel that they have reached Advanced level."
    Advanced: "recommended for those dancers who feel that they have reached an Advanced level and wish to compete with some of the Advanced dancers worldwide."

    Here the only real criterion given for deciding which category you fit into is your own opinion.

    LeRoc UK
    Intermediate: "recommended for those who have danced for at least 6 months."
    Advanced: "recommended for those who have been dancing for one year or more."

    According to these rules my dance partner and I should be dancing in the Advanced category, but we're nowhere near that standard yet. We've not even got through to the second round in Intermediates at a national comp yet, but we've both been dancing well in excess of a year. So in practice I think these rules are pretty much ignored and people just enter whichever category they want to / think they should be in / think they can get away with (delete as appropriate).

    We will be entering the Intermediate category because we feel we fit into that category best and we'd look stupid trying to compete in the Advanced, but does that mean we're breaking the rules?

    Britrock
    Intermediate: "For couples who do not yet feel confident enough to compete at the ‘Open’ level. This section is not available to couples ... [who] have won an intermediate or higher category at any national modern jive competition."
    Open: "This category is open to anyone wishing to challenge themselves against the best."

    A bit better, but again as long as you haven't actually won a competition, you can enter at Intermediate level. IMO not everyone who is advanced has won an intermediate competition.

    I think that although it's a good idea in principle, in practice if a disqualification rule is to be brought in (at any competition) for those who are competing at too low a level, the criteria for each level need to be more specific. Otherwise the organisers lay themselves open to accusations of unfairness.
    Last edited by Baruch; 29th-April-2008 at 05:56 PM.

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    How do you ploice this type of thing????

    At C2D, we inform everyone of the rules and thats all we can do.

    If there was a way im sure one of us would have done something to change it by now.

    Come on Gus, i know your itching to comment!!!!!




    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Agreed. If this rule is actually put into practice (and applied fairly) it can only be a good thing.


    Not necessarily. You and I may have our opinions as to who is intermediate and who is advanced, but it's the rules that provide the actual definitions. The rules should clearly define who should be in which category, but IMO they don't. It's quite easy to envisage someone being disqualified but complaining, possibly legitimately, that they were acting within the rules as they currently stand.

    Here are the rules from the Ceroc Champs web site:

    Intermediate: "This section is recommended for those who have danced for six months or more but do not wish to compete with the Advanced dancers."
    Advanced: "It is recommended for those who want to compete with the best."

    No specific criteria there other than whether or not you want to compete with "the best". It's hard to see how this can be used to divide the intermediates from the advanced in terms of ability. If any other criteria are to be used to decide whether or not to disqualify a couple, then they should be made explicit in the rules.

    There's a similar problem with other competitions too.

    A Chance 2 Dance
    Intermediate: "recommended for those who have danced for 6 months or more but do not feel that they have reached Advanced level."
    Advanced: "recommended for those dancers who feel that they have reached an Advanced level and wish to compete with some of the Advanced dancers worldwide."

    Here the only real criterion given for deciding which category you fit into is your own opinion.

    LeRoc UK
    Intermediate: "recommended for those who have danced for at least 6 months."
    Advanced: "recommended for those who have been dancing for one year or more."

    According to these rules my dance partner and I should be dancing in the Advanced category, but we're nowhere near that standard yet. We've not even got through to the second round in Intermediates at a national comp yet, but we've both been dancing well in excess of a year. So in practice I think these rules are pretty much ignored and people just enter whichever category they want to / think they should be in / think they can get away with (delete as appropriate).

    We will be entering the Intermediate category because we feel we fit into that category best and we'd look stupid trying to compete in the Advanced, but does that mean we're breaking the rules?

    Britrock
    Intermediate: "For couples who do not yet feel confident enough to compete at the ‘Open’ level. This section is not available to couples ... [who] have won an intermediate or higher category at any national modern jive competition."
    Open: "This category is open to anyone wishing to challenge themselves against the best."

    A bit better, but again as long as you haven't actually won a competition, you can enter at Intermediate level. IMO not everyone who is advanced has won an intermediate competition.

    I think that although it's a good idea in principle, in practice if a disqualification rule is to be brought in (at any competition) for those who are competing at too low a level, the criteria for each level need to be more specific. Otherwise the organisers lay themselves open to accusations of unfairness.

  9. #49
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Totally agree with everything Baruch said, and well done for going and looking up the rules of most of the competitions like that!

    It is hard to quantify the difference between intermediate and advanced - especially since what may well be intermediate at one club, would be advanced at the next, and maybe not far out of the beginners at the third.

    What Tess has suggested has merit, but I don't think that it would work so well at MJ, as it does at Ballroom for a variety of reasons. A couple I can thing of off the top of my head are: people do dance with varying degrees of skill to different types of music - dancing to a fast track at the start may well be totally different to dancing to a latin track or a slow track in the next round, and because it is freestyle, with (I think) a much more subjective view than a choreographed ballroom competition, would be much harder for the judges to get it right across the 100 or so couples that would be entered in the first round.

    I do think that it should mostly be up to the competitors themselves. That's mostly worked for the years of competition that I've seen in the UK and Oz. However, maybe the proviso that, rather than disqualification, the organisers have the right to move anyone they think is 'too good' for the intermediate competition up a level (and similarly for the advanced?) after the first round.

    After all, the competitors should jump at the opportunity eh, being told that you're an advanced dancer is far better compensation that the opportunity to win a ceroc holiday, right? Cos, of course, the best intermediate dancer would still be of a lower level than the worst advanced dancer!!

  10. #50
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    How do you ploice this type of thing????
    You can't police it if the level people dance at is determined by the level they feel they should dance at (which is what the rules on your web site currently state). If competition organisers are to police this properly, there need to be more specific, dance-related criteria to define who belongs in which category. What those criteria should be, I don't know.

  11. #51
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    However, maybe the proviso that, rather than disqualification, the organisers have the right to move anyone they think is 'too good' for the intermediate competition up a level (and similarly for the advanced?) after the first round.

    After all, the competitors should jump at the opportunity eh, being told that you're an advanced dancer is far better compensation that the opportunity to win a ceroc holiday, right? Cos, of course, the best intermediate dancer would still be of a lower level than the worst advanced dancer!!
    I agree, and that way the organisers aren't unfairly disqualifying people who have paid their entrance fee and are not breaking any written rules. Plus it would remove the temptation to dance at the level you have the best chance of winning rather than the level you should be in (not that I have any specific people to accuse of this, but it has to be a possibility under current rules).

  12. #52
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    (As I've said before...) I think that they should just have the one competition and skim the top (32/16/half/whatever) couples from the first round and say "you're competing for the title" and to the rest say "you're competing for the plate". People who have won a competion automatically get a bye for the first round.

    Won't eliminate the fact that some dancers styles suit some music styles better than others, but it's a start.

  13. #53
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Come on Gus, i know your itching to comment!!!!!
    Why ... will you take on board what I say ..... for once?

    Think that Baruch's post illustrates that the current segregation is nigh on useless. (I wont even bother to bring up the Teacher = Advanced rebuttal again) Time dancing MJ is a poor indicator of capability. You either do a better job of giving guidelines or don't bother.

    Having said that I heard that at a LeRoc competition a couple were given the option of either withdrawing or moving up after their performance in the first round. Sounds like a sensible approach.

    Must admit that I don't have much faith in the enforcement of the rule ... I've seen at least one case where a dancer has competed at Advanced level (and got placed) then gone on to compete at Intermediate. It comes down to whether you want to trust integrity of dancers or impose it.

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Having said that I heard that at a LeRoc competition a couple were given the option of either withdrawing or moving up after their performance in the first round.
    One couple at the Weston Leroc competition a couple of years ago were given the option of moving up to the advanced. There were 4 criteria:
    • unanimous opinion of the judges
    • they were of advanced standard as individuals and as a couple
    • they would have won the intermediate division (given what we had seen)
    • would be capable of challenging to win at advanced (given our experience of advanced divisions)
    They were perfectly entitled to compete at intermediate according to the rules, and had even asked the organiser to make sure their entry was ok. Had they opted not to move up, they would have been allowed to continue in the intermediate division. They did opt to move up, and ended up placing in the advanced final.

    Since then I have not seen anyone that I felt was in too low a division. At many competitions the intermediate winners could make the advanced final, and the advanced winners could make the open final. However that doesn't mean they are in the wrong division.

    I have a problem disqualifying someone from a dance competition because they are good dancers. The only time I would disqualify someone would be if they deliberately entered intermediate when they knew they had to compete at a higher level, according to the rules of the competition. (eg a teacher).

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    At many competitions the intermediate winners could make the advanced final, and the advanced winners could make the open final. However that doesn't mean they are in the wrong division.
    How come? Surely if someone's good enough to get to the advanced final, they should be competing in the advanced and not intermediate. Otherwise you could argue that everyone in the advanced who didn't place could have legitimately entered intermediate.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    One couple at the Weston Leroc competition a couple of years ago were given the option of moving up to the advanced. ....[snip].
    Thnaks for that correction. Seems like I only got half the story.

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    How come? Surely if someone's good enough to get to the advanced final, they should be competing in the advanced and not intermediate.
    but next year they probably will enter advanced and get to the final - because they are very good. Bear in mind it is a judges opinion of what he has witnessed we are talking about, so with hindsight he can say that yes, perhaps at least the winners could have entered advanced - and they probably would have got into the final. They are still intermediate though, and entered the correct catagory and won at a level they were capable of winning.

    Otherwise you could argue that everyone in the advanced who didn't place could have legitimately entered intermediate.
    No you couldn't, thats silly. Even accepting your opinion that intermediate winners should have entered advanced - it doesnt follow that non-finalists "should have" been in intermediate - the two are in no way connected. It probably makes sense on psychadellic monkey world boyo, but not here

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    If the only actual prize given out in Intermediate Competitions was to have the judges say "you're an Advanced dancer", would this not discourage gloryhunters? (which is the main problem with this category distinction, so far as I can see)

    Just a thought.

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    If the only actual prize given out in Intermediate Competitions was to have the judges say "you're an Advanced dancer", would this not discourage gloryhunters? (which is the main problem with this category distinction, so far as I can see)

    Just a thought.
    not sure that would discourage glory hunters - wasn't it Napolean that realised that the slight possibility of a bit of metal on a string at a presentation ceremony was more than enough incentive for his troops to risk death happily ? Even it is simply a verbal reward - you are still publicly being acknowleged as being better than your peers in some way

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    Re: "The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    not sure that would discourage glory hunters - wasn't it Napolean that realised that the slight possibility of a bit of metal on a string at a presentation ceremony was more than enough incentive for his troops to risk death happily ? Even it is simply a verbal reward - you are still publicly being acknowleged as being better than your peers in some way
    Yes, but I'm thinking along the lines that getting a gong that just says "you're an Advanced dancer", and being introduced as such on stage, because you placed in an Intermediate competition. It would be embarrassing for people everyone knew should have been doing the Advanced, whilst it would still be a thrill for a 'real' Intermediate.

    Not that I care that much, really.

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