"The Ceroc Champs are fixed"

[Martin]

As there is no gambling/betting involved, there is no monetary incentive to "fix" a dancing contest.

Unlike football, boxing, cricket, Pop Idol, greyhounds, horse racing, Formula One etc.,

There is a commercial incentive to "bias towards" certain people being labelled a national champ.

This does not effect heats sometimes (so the post on who got through the heats I think is irrelivant mostly), but it sure effects who comes first.

I have seen a huge change in the way Ceroc is judged in Australia, as dancers have been aware of this, and voted with their feet.

At one point many top dancers from "competitive" companies decided simply not to attend certain championships.

All this is largely in the past here, and for "most" champs, the organisers do not involve themselves in the judging and they get a cross section of judges from various companies to judge.

They go further than that, they get the raw results input on the computer, with an overseer from a different company. The results then come out and are not seen by the organiser until they are read out.


Do organisers of champs really think dancers are stupid?

Now this is hearsay, as I was not there at the time, but someone once said to me a leading company owner said to them "no-one from X company will ever win my champs". In the following 2 years this proved to be correct.

More hearsay...There was nearly a walkout by judges at one champs, when the organiser told them "I have the right to LEVEL the votes". 3 Judges independantly told me this. their take on this was "why are we here?"

[stewart38]

Say it ain't so!!

I've heard this from too many seperate sources now for me to completely ignore the possiblity... have they all come from peeved ex-competitors who "should have" won?? From ex ceroc staff?? From people in the know?? From judges who have holidayed in Barbados sometime in June after a the Champs one year??

...anyone got any thoughts?!?

I'm not interested in reasoned debate here... I have my brown envelope ready, and was curious as to how much I should put in it...

If you have a known face you will get through to the final regardless of what re tards you dance with (lucky dip)

It also isnt a lucky dip as it always move forward 7

if they allowed move 7 then 8 then 6 via random calls , ok its going to take an hour for the women to follow such instructions but then it would really be random

You know what you get in the final


"These two have never danced before but both happen to be teachers in Lerwick type stuff"

Most the judges spent most of the time chatting rather then looking, i heard the final 3 for each cat has already been decided

Thats why I love it

[Astro]

It also isnt a lucky dip as it always move forward 7

if they allowed move 7 then 8 then 6 via random calls , ok its going to take an hour for the women to follow such instructions but then it would really be random

The one time I entered the Lucky Dip, it was move forward 7. Is it always 7?

I think the number should be picked out of a hat, or one of those raffle drums.

Otherwise, what's the point in entering if those in the know stand 7 places apart?

[Gus]

If you have a known face you will get through to the final regardless of what re tards you dance with (lucky dip)

Think we must have been at a different C2D lucky dip competition then

[Achaeco]

Think we must have been at a different C2D lucky dip competition then

Who mentioned C2D Gus???
I was under the impression this thread was about Ceroc

[stewart38]

The one time I entered the Lucky Dip, it was move forward 7. Is it always 7?

I think the number should be picked out of a hat, or one of those raffle drums.

Otherwise, what's the point in entering if those in the know stand 7 places apart?

I think if they keep it at 7 then it easier ?


All joking aside a few years back it use to be move 7 then 8 then 5 type stuff


Last few times its been 'move 7' type stuff

Im sure its not really fixed but id prefer a bit more a mix up

[Dreadful Scathe]

Who mentioned C2D Gus???
I was under the impression this thread was about Ceroc

a very good point - do pay attention Gus

[Gus]

a very good point - do pay attention Gus

I crave forgiveness ... just looked at S38 comment and thought it was a genric comment.

Will now restrict comments to only subjects I know some thing about ...... which should effectively render me silent

[stewart38]

I crave forgiveness ... just looked at S38 comment and thought it was a genric comment.

That sounds posh me making a genric comment

Anyway I saw this

I'm not interested in reasoned debate here...

So thought my input would be ideal

Anyone notice all the winners seem to be in the final rounds as well, is that just a co-incidence

[Martin]

a very good point - do pay attention Gus

Opps, I was talking generic as well, as not specifically about the Ceroc UK champs....

[Billi Wiz]

There is a rather odd message on the CEROC CHAMPS NEWS website..

**
Please note if you are in the Intermediate but the judges feel you should have been in the Advanced you will be disqualified


Does anyone have any thoughts???

[Baruch]

Does anyone have any thoughts???

It's back to the same old problem: how do they define advanced dancing? What are the specific criteria that would mark someone out as advanced material?

Surely it would be fairer just to ask them to move up to advanced rather than disqualify them, especially as the boundaries are so blurred.

[CJ]

There is a rather odd message on the CEROC CHAMPS NEWS website..

**
Please note if you are in the Intermediate but the judges feel you should have been in the Advanced you will be disqualified


Does anyone have any thoughts???

Have just seen this. It's a ballsy move.. I just hope they have the bite to back up their bark!!

lol.. or is it a ploy to ensure the right people win intermediates?!?!?

Seriously, every year it looks like someone who should have moved up hasn't and is way ahead of the others... (and yes, I would name and shame, but I can't bloody remember his name!!) For me, the lines aren't as blurred as Baruch would suggest... Intermediate dancers are fairly easy to see... if U are going to advanced workshops, etc... with comps in mind, it would strike me that U are an advanced dancer.

Think of ur normal intermediate class at Ceroc nights... there lies an intermediate dancer.

anyway... just one view. I would hate to see anyone disqualified... but if it is appropriate, I hope Ceroc has what it takes to follow this rule through...

[stewart38]

It's back to the same old problem: how do they define advanced dancing? What are the specific criteria that would mark someone out as advanced material?

For me its about 3 miles

So if you see me dancing from 3 miles away you wouldnt tell if I was a advanced dancer or not ?

Just entered another catorgory

[DD+]

Surely you should be able to compete as Intermediate until you have won that catagory once at any modern jive competition- then i agree its time to move on up

[TheTramp]

Surely you should be able to compete as Intermediate until you have won that catagory once at any modern jive competition- then i agree its time to move on up

Of course not. If you're advanced, then you're advanced. Even if it's your first competition.

[Achaeco]

Of course not. If you're advanced, then you're advanced. Even if it's your first competition.

[stewart38]

Of course not. If you're advanced, then you're advanced. Even if it's your first competition.

All joking aside how would you measure if your 'advanced'

Rules are

---------------------

This section is recommended for those who have danced for six months or more but do not wish to compete with the Advanced dancers.

Teachers/professionals are not allowed to enter this section.

Competitor couples or partnerships from the Advanced and Open Freestyle Trophy sections are not permitted to enter this section.
------------------------

So i guess if you have tried advance/open elsewhere or even at cero champs before as long as your not competiting in those categories this year you can enter ?
I think that would be a bit unfair


Years ago they use to have a beginners cat which i think was abused

I hope the intermediates doesnt go down that route ? I see half of all entries are 'Intermediate'. That includes show cases double trouble etc

[Martin]

Of course not. If you're advanced, then you're advanced. Even if it's your first competition.

A mate of mine decided to enter intermediate (coz he was not a teacher etc) BUT he had been dancing Ceroc over 12 years and had done some team comps and I had given him a lot of coaching.

I said to him "mate, you really should be doing advanced"

He did the intermediate, and did win it... For me though, it did seem he had rather an empty win

Talking of fixed or not - the results from the Melbourne champs (Aussie) are in... They advertise the dance company the dancers are from, and it is nice to see a good mix from all companies across Australia taking home medals.
It would be tough for anyone to say that one was fixed...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Please note if you are in the Intermediate but the judges feel you should have been in the Advanced you will be disqualified

why is that odd? seems like a good rule to me. It'll never work though - simply because there is rarely ever ONE couple that stand out as advanced, theres usually several and in the main they are entering intermediate because they see their peers entering. Should they all be disqualified? I think the judges will generally steer well clear of opening such a can of worms.

It's back to the same old problem: how do they define advanced dancing? What are the specific criteria that would mark someone out as advanced material?

I think this has to be defined by the rules of the competition, otherwise, as you say, how do you define it (and more importantly how do you define it instantly with the first heat warm-up track in a comp)? I would define it, as most competitions now do, by being a pro/teacher/placed in a competition. the only other sensible option i can see, is to have it invite only OR after some other qualification heat where entrants are graded into the correct category OR a DVD of your dancing sent in advance (ever so slightly open to cheating to gain a lower catagory, which would of course see you banned forever)

Surely it would be fairer just to ask them to move up to advanced rather than disqualify them, especially as the boundaries are so blurred.

If they could possibly keep to that rule, then yes, that does make sense. Now I'm picturing the fisticuffs resulting in one couple being "promoted" and another couple not, when they are equally good . Gah, just ban all dance competitions...or, here's a thought, let's stop moaning about it and let the competition organisers decide on the rules.

Surely you should be able to compete as Intermediate until you have won that catagory once at any modern jive competition- then i agree its time to move on up

I would say top three, but you have a point. I think at intermediate level you may not improve that much year on year (and shouldn't have to*), so to be "forced" up effectively bans you from competing if you do not want to compete with advanced dancers. But theTramp also has a point - if you are already an advanced dancer, should you really be entering intermediate just because you are allowed to? If only self-grading worked in real life

* shouldn't have to in a way that makes you "advanced" - any advanced dancers will probably know what i mean here