Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 456789 LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 163

Thread: The "yes" ethos

  1. #141
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Scottish Borders
    Posts
    1,191
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    .......... I've occasionally announced "we only have gentlemen at our classes and a gentleman would never refuse a lady who asks him to dance. If you prove you are not a gentleman by refusing a lady you will have your entrance money returned to you and will be asked to leave". The first time I announced this policy it was met with a round of applause
    good on you.
    That's the Male side half sorted.

    Franck,
    are you listening?

    Now, how do we address the other half of the problem? Of only asking those one fancies.

  2. #142
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    ...Since then I've occasionally announced "we only have gentlemen at our classes and a gentleman would never refuse a lady who asks him to dance. If you prove you are not a gentleman by refusing a lady you will have your entrance money returned to you and will be asked to leave". ..


    but I am hatching a cunning plan ...

  3. #143
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    but I am hatching a cunning plan ...
    I do say, "please don't leave your refusal until the last 5 minutes just so you can get your money back" - I'm not falling for that one

  4. #144
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Worcester, UK
    Posts
    4,157
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Since then I've occasionally announced "we only have gentlemen at our classes and a gentleman would never refuse a lady who asks him to dance. If you prove you are not a gentleman by refusing a lady you will have your entrance money returned to you and will be asked to leave". The first time I announced this policy it was met with a round of applause.
    There is an equal opportunities issue in that you don't have the same policy for ladies that refuse. I understand you have your reasons for this. I would hope that the ladies would follow the gentlemen's example.

  5. #145
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    There is an equal opportunities issue in that you don't have the same policy for ladies that refuse. I understand you have your reasons for this. I would hope that the ladies would follow the gentlemen's example.
    Yes there is. The fact that there is an equal opportunities act and that men and women must be treated equally means that I do not need to say that the rules apply to both sexes. Until they come up with a non-gender specific version of "gentleman" I will carry on using men as my example

  6. #146
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    We have recently taken this to the next level. We always said that a guy must say yes when a lady asks him to dance.
    ...

    Since then I've occasionally announced "we only have gentlemen at our classes and a gentleman would never refuse a lady who asks him to dance. If you prove you are not a gentleman by refusing a lady you will have your entrance money returned to you and will be asked to leave". The first time I announced this policy it was met with a round of applause
    I agree with this policy in broad terms, but it does fail to take account of those (thankfully few) times when the refusal is given for a good reason. What if the lady in question has BO, yanks your arm badly, has already hurt you in the class, etc? Surely there shouldn't be a blanket ban on the right to refuse.

  7. #147
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I agree with this policy in broad terms, but it does fail to take account of those (thankfully few) times when the refusal is given for a good reason. What if the lady in question has BO, yanks your arm badly, has already hurt you in the class, etc? Surely there shouldn't be a blanket ban on the right to refuse.
    Sounds logical, but anyway, as there is a blanket ban at Andy's venue - I must tell my son, who has just arrived in Worthing for a holiday, and is on a budget....

    Go to Andy's venue, have a few dances, then refuse if asked by a staff member to have a dance - and you get a free evening

    Should save him a bit of cash

  8. #148
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    St Neots, Cambs
    Posts
    699
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Sounds logical, but anyway, as there is a blanket ban at Andy's venue - I must tell my son, who has just arrived in Worthing for a holiday, and is on a budget....

    Go to Andy's venue, have a few dances, then refuse if asked by a staff member to have a dance - and you get a free evening

    Should save him a bit of cash
    Make sure that you tell him to target all of the PYTs straight away though - if he's only going to get one shot at it then he should maximise his enjoyment while he can.

  9. #149
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Make sure that you tell him to target all of the PYTs straight away though - if he's only going to get one shot at it then he should maximise his enjoyment while he can.
    Good point...

    Seeing as he is a hansome 19 year old, that can dance exceptionally well, been dancing MJ 3 years and has good musicality and is smooooth - I am sure the PYT's will target him They do at his local venue...

    [of course I could just be a very biased parent ]

    You never know, Andy might just let him in for free, just to entertain his PYT's
    Last edited by Martin; 2nd-June-2008 at 05:31 PM.

  10. #150
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    You never know, Andy might just let him in for free, just to entertain his PYT's
    Seeing as Martin put up my daughter in Australia he's welcome to come as my guest. Just PM me his name and he's in. Just one condition, please ask him to leave one PYT for me

  11. #151
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I agree with this policy in broad terms, but it does fail to take account of those (thankfully few) times when the refusal is given for a good reason. What if the lady in question has BO, yanks your arm badly, has already hurt you in the class, etc? Surely there shouldn't be a blanket ban on the right to refuse.
    Sorry, not good enough excuses. I've only come across one lady with BO in all my years of MJ. And the yanking is 50% down to the guy meeting the lady's force with an equal and opposite force - just give your hand away to her and chase after it. After a while she'll cotton on that you're not playing her game and stop yanking you. Also, I find the words "please stop pulling my hand, you're hurting" seem to work quite well

    Next excuse please.

  12. #152
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Seeing as Martin put up my daughter in Australia he's welcome to come as my guest. Just PM me his name and he's in. Just one condition, please ask him to leave one PYT for me

    Hmmm, there is always a condition

  13. #153
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    St Neots, Cambs
    Posts
    699
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    We have recently taken this to the next level. We always said that a guy must say yes when a lady asks him to dance. Our reasoning is that a gentleman would always say "yes", "yes, please" or "I'd love to" when a lady requests a dance. It is entirely acceptable to postpone the dance "I'd love to, I've just danced the last 3 fast tracks and need a quick drink, do you mind if I come and find you for a dance a little later?". But a flat "no" or even "no thank you" is unacceptable as you are refusing a lady a reasonable request - after all, you are all there to dance. So, my reasoning is that it is ungentlemanly to bluntly refuse a lady politely requesting a dance. Especially with a rude "no".

    We had an incident at one of our classes recently where a visiting dancer was, very obviously, dancing with all the pretty, slim young things and bluntly refusing all the ladies who were not. Even the pretty, slim, mature and sophisticated ladies. One of our female crew, in her 50s and very attractive, saw what was going on and was told about it by a couple of the women that this guy had turned down. She asked and was refused by this guy. Our refused crew member then told the guy that men are not allowed to say "no" at this class. His reply was "I've paid my money and I can do what I like". She said that you need to comply with the rules, even if you have paid, and told him to leave.

    She was worried that she'd done the wrong thing and spoke with me about it. I told her I was delighted, especially as, if I'd done it I would have returned his money. I would say this was a result: weeded out a bad-un and I've got his £7.

    Since then I've occasionally announced "we only have gentlemen at our classes and a gentleman would never refuse a lady who asks him to dance. If you prove you are not a gentleman by refusing a lady you will have your entrance money returned to you and will be asked to leave". The first time I announced this policy it was met with a round of applause
    On the quoted example I'm sure many of us could see the point - perving so obviously invites a robust response.

    Beyond that though I don't share the view that a gentleman never refuses a lady and wonder what the implication will be for visitors in future to the People's Republic of Sussex (PRS).

    Sitting last night in the Blues Room at Southport I reluctantly turned down 2 ladies at the end of the night because my knee was so sore after a weekend of dancing I could hardly stand. It was not a postponement - I might never see the ladies again and in fact I went straight back to my room after the final refusal. I did apologise, but facts were facts and I said no. I could of course have said catch me later and then slipped away but better be straight I thought.

    At our local venue we have a painfully shy guy that takes time to get to know people. In this brave new world should we now think of excluding him in advance - because I know that he will decline a lady this week or next week? Dancing has made him less shy so it would be a shame to curtail this now.

    What about someone with a mature lady fetish - sorry preference that doesn't dance with the Pretty Young Things, would you be so quick to exclude him?

    And do you also prohibit fixed partner dancing for lessons? Surely that is just saying no by another means?

    The general feeling is that we want more men in dancing (although I confess that I'll miss being outnumbered by ladies). While the intention to target the more selfish dancers is laudable I'm plainly hoping that this idea does not spread outside the PRS borders because it's likely to cause lots of collateral damage.

    On the gentleman thing, as an ex-military officer I've got a very developed view of what gentlemanly conduct is and I'd say that this does not imply never saying no to a lady, simply that you should always be truthful, polite, respectful etc in your dealings with everyone including ladies.

    That being said, and where this thread started, the default answer should be yes unless you have a valid reason for declining. We all have different ideas of valid but I believe that off-hand refusals are still few and far between.
    Last edited by Agente Secreto; 2nd-June-2008 at 06:01 PM.

  14. #154
    The Dashing Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Midlands
    Posts
    3,556
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I've only come across one lady with BO in all my years of MJ..
    Well it is rare, but I've certainly some across this more than once, and I'm sure I've not been dancing as long as Andy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And the yanking is 50% down to the guy meeting the lady's force with an equal and opposite force - just give your hand away to her and chase after it. After a while she'll cotton on that you're not playing her game and stop yanking you.
    It sems to me that you'd have to be quite nimble to react quickly in the manner described in order to "chase after" someone. Andy is an excellent dancer and I'm sure he has the skills to do this, but I reckon many people would struggle to react and transfer their weight so quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Also, I find the words "please stop pulling my hand, you're hurting" seem to work quite well.
    I'm sure Andy sets the volume to a reasonable enough level for people to have this sort of conversation. But this sadly isn't true in many venues.
    I've told people they're hurting me before - it's quite hard to word such a comment in such a way that's tactful. It's a bit like telling people they have BO - telling them is the right thing to do, but not always easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Next excuse please.
    Not an excuse, but how do you advise leaders to deal with followers who dance slightly ahead of the beat, and "bouncy hand syndrome"?
    Love dance, will travel

  15. #155
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Worcester, UK
    Posts
    4,157
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Yes there is. The fact that there is an equal opportunities act and that men and women must be treated equally means that I do not need to say that the rules apply to both sexes. Until they come up with a non-gender specific version of "gentleman" I will carry on using men as my example
    I think it's "gentlefolk".

    I'm glad to hear you've improved your policy since a few years ago, when you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have a little speech I give about saying no. It goes something like this.

    This is a dance class and we're all here dance - if you don't want to dance you're in the wrong place. So when someone asks you to dance you should usually say yes - that's what you came here to do.

    Guys, you should always say yes as it takes courage for a lady to ask a guy to dance, especially the first time they do it.
    ...
    Ladies, please try to say yes, but you don't have to if you really have a problem with a particular guy.
    ...
    read full speech

  16. #156
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gold Coast, Austra
    Posts
    2,345
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Sorry, not good enough excuses. I've only come across one lady with BO in all my years of MJ. And the yanking is 50% down to the guy meeting the lady's force with an equal and opposite force - just give your hand away to her and chase after it. After a while she'll cotton on that you're not playing her game and stop yanking you. Also, I find the words "please stop pulling my hand, you're hurting" seem to work quite well

    Next excuse please.
    I have come across 5 ladies with strong BO, but one dance is ok.

    The yanking does get more complex.

    Yes I can open my hand, I can also step forward where I would normally step back.
    Often, opening my hand causes her to stumble, coz she is expecting me to "hold her up" - so it is not really "dancing".

    There comes a point where you do not want to over do it... Sometimes better to refuse than humiliate.

    I have also come across a few "over the top" ladies who take every oppertunity to grind, almost like they are trying to have sex with you on the dance floor. I should have the option to say no in this case.

  17. #157
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I think it's "gentlefolk".
    No, I'm sure this means something different. I'm sure there are male "gentlefolk" who are not gentlemen.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I'm glad to hear you've improved your policy since a few years ago, when you said:read full speech
    I have really only tightened up on my policy and made it clearer. The sentiment behind it is, essentially, unchanged.

  18. #158
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    And do you also prohibit fixed partner dancing for lessons?
    Yes I do. I had the door person return £12 to a couple last Thursday when they refused to join the rotation.

  19. #159
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Sorry, not good enough excuses. I've only come across one lady with BO in all my years of MJ.
    I've come across several women with BO. There's also such things as garlic breath and cigarette breath that can make a dance very unpleasant. I wouldn't like to be told at my local venue that I must dance with these women under any and all circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And the yanking is 50% down to the guy meeting the lady's force with an equal and opposite force - just give your hand away to her and chase after it. After a while she'll cotton on that you're not playing her game and stop yanking you.

    Also, I find the words "please stop pulling my hand, you're hurting" seem to work quite well
    Not all men are of a standard where they'd think of that. Also, there's the well-documented phenomenon of the Evil Vice Grip Of Death to contend with - it's hard to avoid being yanked or twisted awkwardly when your partner grips on for dear life, particularly in turns. I've come across several women who, even after I've explained that this hurts and asked them to relax their grip (in some cases more than once), just don't do it. After that point I avoid dancing with them, I think with justification. The fact that I have a dodgy shoulder that has been injured more than once by this sort of thing is an added reason why I would always want the right to refuse when necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Next excuse please.
    What if the lady had halitosis, an infectious skin disease on her hands, hadn't bathed for a month, had fleas and spat on her hands before dancing?

    Seriously, there should always be the option of refusing a dance IMO. It should of course be the exception rather than the rule, but there is always the possibility of circumstances where a refusal is the best course of action.

  20. #160
    Registered User Miss Flicts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    174
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I must tell my son, who has just arrived in Worthing for a holiday, and is on a budget....
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Good point...

    Seeing as he is a hansome 19 year old, that can dance exceptionally well, been dancing MJ 3 years and has good musicality and is smooooth - I am sure the PYT's will target him They do at his local venue...

    [of course I could just be a very biased parent ]
    How long is he here in Worthing? Sounds like I ought to go and find him for a dance!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •