The "yes" ethos

[Lory]

Get off your high horse and start respecting your equals.

I really don't think Lynn was getting on any 'high horse'!

She was asking a question, to get peoples opinions on how to cause the least offense!

[Lynn]

We will have to differ.
Whether the promise is by word of mouth or agreement from a distance, both parties are aware the next dance is between them.

Try reading my orginal post on the subject maybe before you comment? It was a person who I had not spoken to, ever, had never met or seen before. It could hardly have been said to have been by word of mouth or even agreement at a distance - I just could tell that he was about to ask me. I couldn't turn round and honestly say to the other person that I had already arranged to dance with someone else. Other circumstances may be different. The level of 'agreement' to dance in such situations is a grey area.

It seems you are all so intent on taking stripes off Gadget, that normal etiquette is being thrown away, exceptions are taken out of context and being used to support argument that should never arise.

Get off your high horse and start respecting your equals. We can all understand promises and invitations and Yes Ethos and exceptions to the general rule.

Excuse me? When did I ever make any reference to any of Gadget's posts and why have you decided that based on me wanting to not refuse a beginner I need to 'get off my high horse'?

I was talking about a specific situation that did arise this week. And I have on several occasions had to deal with being asked by two different people at the same time by a look and by hand on my arm so this is not an isolated incident.

I really am at a loss at what I have said that made you feel you need to be so rude to me. Feel free to not respond to any of my posts in the future.

[Agente Secreto]

Get off your high horse and start respecting your equals. We can all understand promises and invitations and Yes Ethos and exceptions to the general rule.

I'm obviously missing something in this thread. Clearly we don't all share a common understanding or the posts would not have been as heated.

I'm confused by your response to Lynn. You seem to be agreeing with her that the look is a non-verbal promise. She comes back with some self-doubt, whether the nod was indeed a promise, you confirm that you think it is a promise. And then you tell her to get off her high horse

Ducasi got closest to it. Clearly there are two parallel views here, and we'll never meet.

Not sure that Lynn was trying to get any hits in against Gadget either. Maybe I'm just not taking enough of the mind-bending chemicals to follow the argument

Oh and I'd advise against creating the expression 'No Ethos', I don't believe that anyone on this thread has suggested there is any such thing.

[dep]

The "get off your high horse" is not aimed at Lynn specifically.
Lynn,
I can see that my ambiguously targeted statement could be construed as being directed at you.
Sorry, personal offense was not intended.

The statement is aimed at most contributors to this thread that seem to be looking for any excuse to avoid complying with the Yes Ethos.
I say again, we all know that there are perfectly valid reasons for rejecting an invitation.

I did not say "tell lies", I said

"I've already promised THIS dance to someone".
"Next one?"
That is completely different to "No Ethos".
I am in effect asking the "tugger" to withdraw the invitation. Hopefully by mutual agreement, we can proceed.

and note the ? after next one. Again a non verbal (nod of the head) response would often be sufficient for that mutual agreement.
I have had precisely this situation occur on a number of occasions. I see no offense being felt by the "tugger". I would see offense being felt by a beginner sitting out yet another dance after we have "agreed" at a distance to this dance. Possibly enough to make her want "to not be there".
I wonder how many beginners do less than two nights because they are isolated and made to feel "I'm not worthy of a dance". Look around the perimeter of the dance floor. Who is it you see seated at the back?

[Martin]

I had it happen to me too on Weds... and this time, I declined the 'tugger' (very politely, I might add), it just seemed the right thing to do in that particular circumstance.
I don't think there's any implicit right or wrong when this happens. You just have to do what feels right at the time and hopefully (as i did) you'll grab a dance with the tugger, as soon as possible after!

I had a situation last week, where I was sitting and chatting to someone - (we happened to have linked arms and I had my hand on her knee - but hey, dance is a friendly place)

It was half way through a song, and a fabby dancer came and sat on the other side of me and asked me "Are you connodling or dancing" - I said I was connodling but just about to dance the next track (with my connodlee) so can we dance after?

There had been no previous verbal ask from my conoodlee to dance...
BUT - people know I like to chat, if I chat for a few minutes with a girl, it is polite for me to ask her to dance as well, so I thought it more polite to dance with the girl I was chatting to first.

I felt totally natural with this, and when we (me and my connodlee) came off the floor, the "fabby" dancer was waiting and we had our fabby dance then.

As far as I could tell, everyone was happy and understood.

[Martin]

I wonder how many beginners do less than two nights because they are isolated and made to feel "I'm not worthy of a dance". Look around the perimeter of the dance floor. Who is it you see seated at the back?

Fortunately this does not happen at my local venue, there is normally at least 3 female and 3 males who are staff (not taxi dancers, just staff who happen to be there), and they make a huge effort to befriend beginners and dance with them. This includes the teachers who ensure they dance with the beginners.

The regulars also join in and ask beginners (I guess it comes from the example set by the staff)

I have taken several beginners to this venue, and normally they struggle to find time for a drink and a chat.

There is no "yes ethos" mentioned from the stage, there is simply a good example set, to include all people.

[dave the scaffolder]

The thing is I do try and dance with everyone that asks, but every now and then a clash will occur.

I believe that I try to be polite and try to dance with everyone that asks, however now and then a no is bound to happen.

I do believe in the ethos of the yes to every dance but I do reserve the right to refuse, it is how you refuse that counts.

Bit of a ramble but you will get my point.

Dont take this as blowing my own trumpet but some nights I dont have time to ask people as I am rarely off the floor, when I get a break between tracks I am seeking out my favourite dancers because I know I will get exceptional dances.

Also sometimes I may be in a bad mood or carrying an injury and on those times I have been less than polite, but it worries me for months afterwards, so I do try to be polite but we all err now and again.

Dep I thought you was a bit harsh with Lynn, she is a lovely lovely woman and dances like a Goddess, a nicer person I have yet to meet. However your apology shows you are a good man.

DTS Dave XXX XXX Demi dance God and leg-end in his own lunch time.

[killingtime]

What do you do when you have already made 'contact' with someone for that track with a look and then you get the 'tug'? I sort of feel that the person I have made eye contact with - there is already an agreement to dance with a 'look' so they should get priority...

For me a set of factors are then kicked in. If the person I've made eye contact with is a friend and the "tugger" is a stranger then I'll dance with the tugger (the friend should understand and come and find me later whereas the tugger might not) unless I've already danced with them in which case I might or might not accept. On the other hand if "that track" has just come on and I know the person I made eye contact with would make it fantastic then I might turn down the "tugger" and try and find them later. If I know both people quite well I might grab 'em both and do some double trouble. If I know neither I'd probably go with the tugger and try and find the person who made eye contact next.

That's the simple form of what goes through my head. Other factors might vary it further.

It seems you are all so intent on taking stripes off Gadget, that normal etiquette is being thrown away, exceptions are taken out of context and being used to support argument that should never arise.

Actually I thought everyone seemed in a consensuses about what represented a reasonable, common sense, "no" policy and Gadget posted something that took an extreme totalitarian standpoint on the matter of always saying "yes". Maybe that was just me though.

[Isis]

Oh and I'd advise against creating the expression 'No Ethos', I don't believe that anyone on this thread has suggested there is any such thing.

I don't think there is any such thing on the MJ scene but I would say it does exist in other dance scenes, in the sense of 'no' being the default position and rejection from anyone you don't know well being the order of the day.

This is extremely unpleasant and tends to lead to half empty venues (which they get chucked out of every few months for that reason), half empty dance floors and a very stagnant scene. I wouldn't underestimate how important the 'yes' ethos is in MJ and I wouldn't want to take it for granted.

[DundeeDancer]

I've just read this :- Elements of Dance Etiquette

Wish I had known about it earlier!

DD

[Agente Secreto]

I wonder how many beginners do less than two nights because they are isolated and made to feel "I'm not worthy of a dance". Look around the perimeter of the dance floor. Who is it you see seated at the back?

Can't speak for others but for me there is a difference between a normal club night and a freestyle.

I dance mostly at Snow White's venues where we pay particular attention to newbies on class nights. The 'staff' are particularly attentive to people in their first couple of weeks, but then so are the regular dancers too. All of the teachers and the demos, those working the door, and anyone that has been coming for any length of time operates as a sort of welcoming committee. That extends to longer-term members who may just be having an off-night because as Gadget says that is what a 'community' does. That is possibly why I rarely speak to my wife from start to finish on a normal club night (although I'm sure she suspects I'm just not very attentive).

Come freestyles, I'd expect that people attending have got over the first hurdle of beng too shy and don't need as much attention from the staff. The attendees by this stage will have their own network of people they dance with and are unlikely to be sitting at the back of aything, so the 'staff' can spend the majority of their time dancing as if they are normal punters, asking for and accepting dances from a wider variety. I'll still pay particular attention to someone that looks a little off-sorts because I feel like that sometimes and I'm always grateful for a bit of moral support myself. That being said on freestyles my primary focus is on having a good night myself and helping make sure my wife also enjoys herself.

Back to the main thrust of the thread though, I still default to yes on both sets of occasions, but at a freestlye I'll be far more likely to have spent time catching the eye of, or otherwise lining up, people that I want to dance with myself and that means I end up postponing dances.

I've just read this :- Elements of Dance Etiquette

Wish I had known about it earlier!

DD

First time I've seen it too. Some good stuff in there that would have informed several threads recently

[timbp]

What do you do when you have already made 'contact' with someone for that track with a look and then you get the 'tug'?

I have always thought that eye contact agreement is an agreement, and I have refused other requests on that basis.

I do recall one time I thought I had asked a girl to dance with eye contact, and she started towards me and the dance floor. Then I got the "tug", turned to tell the girl I was already committed for the dance, looked back to my expected partner and saw her accepting a dance with someone else. (I sat out that dance.)
I've never spoken to her about it, so I don't know what actually happened. It may be she saw the other girl ask me and me turn to answer, so decided to accept another offer. Or maybe I was completely wrong in thinking she had agreed to dance with me. Or maybe the guy she danced with is better looking than me (hard to imagine),* ( or maybe he's a better dancer (hard to imagine).*

*I have poor imagination.

[ducasi]

I wonder how many beginners do less than two nights because they are isolated and made to feel "I'm not worthy of a dance". Look around the perimeter of the dance floor. Who is it you see seated at the back?

This comment needs to be considered in two parts. First, specifically about beginners...

It's always a good thing to encourage beginners, make them feel welcome, and ask them to dance. Hopefully give them confidence and help them decide to come back. However, I'm not going to go out my way to seek out every beginner in the room – firstly it can look sleazy, and secondly I would like to enjoy myself, and I can only do that by getting a fair number of dances with dancers who can match my ability.

So, if a beginner hides themselves any at the back of the room, who could be surprised if no-one finds them for a dance?

And on this more general point about folks – not just beginners – who hide themselves anyway and are upset that no-one asks them to dance...

The 'yes ethos' doesn't state we need to ask everyone. It doesn't tell us that we are responsible for the enjoyment of everyone else in the room.

Just whose fault is it that the person sitting at the back in the shadows, probably with a miserable look on their face, is not getting dances?

If you want to get asked to dance, make yourself available, and look like you are here to enjoy yourself. If you really want to dance, learn to do what the rest of us have, and go and ask people. If they have any understanding of the 'yes ethos', they won't turn you down.

[Lory]

~everything you said ~

I agree with it all!

Great post! Rep on the way!

[Double Trouble]

So, if a beginner hides themselves any at the back of the room, who could be surprised if no-one finds them for a dance?

Agreed.

Me and sis learnt very early on that if we wanted to practice the moves we had learnt and get lots of experience, we had to not only make ourselves seen but go and grab as many people as possible.

We usually got the look from people that most beginners get "Oh god, a beginner...I suppose I can give you a charity dance if I have to" but as long as you grab everyone and don't pick on the same few people all the time, it gives you a great range of leaders and helps your dancing ability.

It's not easy being a beginner, especially among loads of people you don't know and I do understand why some people stop coming after a few times as it's not in everyone's nature to be as *ahem* persuasive and in your face as me and sis. I suppose that is why we have taxi dancers.

[timbp]

And on this more general point about folks – not just beginners – who hide themselves anyway and are upset that no-one asks them to dance...

The 'yes ethos' doesn't state we need to ask everyone. It doesn't tell us that we are responsible for the enjoyment of everyone else in the room.

I never thought it meant we had to ask anyone. I thought it was about responding to people who ask us for a dance.
If a beginner is sitting at the back of the room, I'm not likely to ask her to dance, mostly because someone I know will ask me to dance before I get to the back of the room to ask her. But if a beginner asks me to dance, I will say "yes".
In practice, I am more likely to refuse a dance with people I know (I can dance with them next week).

[bigdjiver]

... It's always a good thing to encourage beginners, make them feel welcome, and ask them to dance. Hopefully give them confidence and help them decide to come back...

... So, if a beginner hides themselves any at the back of the room, who could be surprised if no-one finds them for a dance?

And on this more general point about folks – not just beginners – who hide themselves anyway and are upset that no-one asks them to dance...

I have a missionary zeal about MJ. I do what I can to promote it and make it grow. I will seek out beginners and others that are not getting their share of dances.

The shy and insecure naturally hide themselves away. "Nobody will want to dance with me." becomes a self-fulfilling phophecy.

The beginners have not learned how it works. In there anxiety not to take someone else's seat they head for the unpopulated regions. Nobody is sitting there because "there" is a lousy place for getting dances.

IMO some venues have an inferior retention rate because of the geography of the seating and some venues have a superior retention rate because some dancers deliberately seek out those not getting their share.

... If you want to get asked to dance, make yourself available, and look like you are here to enjoy yourself. If you really want to dance, learn to do what the rest of us have, and go and ask people. If they have any understanding of the 'yes ethos', they won't turn you down...

but those that most needed that advice most have stopped coming without learning there is a forum to read it on.

[Astro]

I had a brilliant time at Hammersmith last night.
It was not too crowdwd for once.

One of my massively favourite tracks came on "Crazy Litttle Thing called Love" by Queen. I can never sit down to that.

I looked around and noboby, I would usually ask, was free.

So I asked about 4 or 5 very good leads in a row, they all refused me, but I wasn't really expecting a "yes". I only really asked them cos I was desperate to dance to Queen.

The refusals didn't bother me. I don't see why people make a big issue of it.

I did manage to find a partner in the end. Number six

PS. Didn't have any other refusals apart from those.

[Lory]

So I asked about 4 or 5 very good leads in a row, they all refused me,

I think I'd have been in tears by then

The refusals didn't bother me. I don't see why people make a big issue of it.

I did manage to find a partner in the end. Number six

You go girl!

I hope he was worth the wait!

[killingtime]

I did manage to find a partner in the end. Number six

Was it the best six you've had?