The "yes" ethos

[NZ Monkey]

They would only affect the ethos if there is enough of them, to make them unexceptional.


As dancers get significantly better than average (and so less typical) their opinion on the matter often changes. Mostly dancing with better dancers their experience is very different.

So as they become less typical, the one size ethos no longer serves them well.


That doesn't however necessarily invalidate the general "always say yes" ethos for the majority.


I think there was a similar thread, where Amir said something along the lines of you shouldn't have to dance with everyone, but Amir's experience is too far removed from the average dancer to be have wide applicability.

To a lesser degree this may be the case for many of the posters to this thread.

So you're suggesting the MJ ethos doesn't, or somehow shouldn't apply to better-than-average dancers?

If so then it seems to me that either you don't include anyone really good in your definition of the community, or that the "always say yes" ethos is something that's only there for the unwashed masses and therefore isn't really a true ethos at all.

[Agente Secreto]

They would only affect the ethos if there is enough of them, to make them unexceptional.


As dancers get significantly better than average (and so less typical) their opinion on the matter often changes. Mostly dancing with better dancers their experience is very different.

So as they become less typical, the one size ethos no longer serves them well.


That doesn't however necessarily invalidate the general "always say yes" ethos for the majority.


I think there was a similar thread, where Amir said something along the lines of you shouldn't have to dance with everyone, but Amir's experience is too far removed from the average dancer to be have wide applicability.

To a lesser degree this may be the case for many of the posters to this thread.

Sorry Frodo, but even the good dancers that I know default to the say yes ethos - let's not start up another spurious elitist argument.

Can't speak for others but I'm an average dancer - I go out to have a good time, meet people, forget about work, feel good, get pleasure. My aim for any dance it to leave the follow feeling good and with a smile on their face. My skill will improve with time I hope but my attitudes won't.

I feel that I'm as representative of 'average' as anyone.

[Isis]

I'm not getting involved in this row and giving my own opinion but I would like to point out some parts of Gadget's original post:

Sure you can refuse, and I'll presume there is a valid reason. The fact that you think it is valid means that it must be.

Isn't it a much more conducive to the dance when people start with an open, default "yes" mentality rather than a closed "no" that has to be won over?

But I don't think that the 'guilt' should invalidate the reason for the refusal or guarantee acceptance the next time you're asked.

I do not believe that anyone, including Gadget considers the 'yes' ethos to mean you literally have to say 'yes' to everyone at all times. I think DS summarised the difference between a 'yes' and a 'no' ethos (nightclub scenario) well:

The ethos has always been i think, at least with most people, that you do not say NO unless you have a compelling reason to do so. This is very different to a night club, where you only say YES if you have a compelling reason to do so.

The compelling reason is up to you, and no one should criticise you for it.

I read it that Gadget is criticising those who would support a 'no' ethos over a 'yes' ethos within MJ, as opposed to criticising anyone who ever refuses a dance.

Over and out.

[Astro]

Oh, I thought Gadget was trolling.

[pmjd]

I do not believe that anyone, including Gadget considers the 'yes' ethos to mean you literally have to say 'yes' to everyone at all times.

If so then why post this:

As I've said before, these refusals are in the minority; they do not affect the over all ethos of accepting every dance offer. They are so rare that everyone who refuses is tarred with the same brush; going against the flow = arrogant.

[ducasi]

Some people go to a dance with the aim of dancing with as many different people as they can, literally "working the room" trying to dance with "everyone" (of the appropriate lead/follow gender.)

Other people go mainly to dance with their friends, though that doesn't mean they will not seek or refuse to dance with others.

I'd say the 'yes ethos' matters much more to the first group of people than it does to the second. A refusal to an "everyone" dancer is a greater upset to their view of what the MJ dance culture is about.

I think both groups believe in the 'yes ethos', it just varies in importance and how it impacts them. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to reconcile the two points of view.

[dep]

Some people go to a dance with the aim of dancing with as many different people as they can, literally "working the room" trying to dance with "everyone" ................I'd say the 'yes ethos' matters much more to the first group of people than it does to the second. A refusal to an "everyone" dancer is a greater upset to their view of what the MJ dance culture is about...............

[Gadget]

{Skip this if your easily board...}

I know I am expressing very polar views here, but I hope I've made it clear that they are my views and my opinions. My argument is not against those who stamp their foot down saying "I have a right to refuse!":
Most people saying this are saying "If you are a yanker, stinker, perv, or a danger to me; I will refuse you.". Well done. I respect that you have the backbone to stand up against the flow and refuse to be put into a situation like that.

The other form of "no" is not a refusal to dance, but a postponement: a 'no' is not "no, I will not dance with you" but "no, I cannot dance with you just now".

I think that this is where communication breaks down between people - if I am simply refused, are you are saying to me that I am a yanker, stinker, perv, or danger on the dance floor? If you cannot dance with me, but can dance with the next person to ask while I am still free, then I must be. Self-confidence is fragile and paranoia high, especially for new people.
Personally I know I have been a yanker in the past (and still feel guilty about it because I hurt someone), I know I perspire a lot, I know that some of the moves I have in my repertoire could be seen as perving, I have had the occasional collision on the dance floor,... I know that this perception of me could well be true.

Refusals happen so infrequently that they stand out. Even more seldom is the question asked "why did you accept my offer to dance?". We go to a dance venue to dance, to have fun and socialise. When something impairs any of these it is analysed, scrutinised, questioned and whatever the worst scenario is, that's the one that is fixated on.


With regard to injuries and dancing, I really feel for people that suffer an injury and can't dance or have to be careful due to past injuries. I love dancing and want everyone else to share in that - it makes me sad that some people can't and I would be heartbroken if anything like that happened to me.
When I said rule 1 is not to injure your partner, then rule zero should be not to injure yourself - but that's a global rule of life on the plant and I don't see why it has to be implicitly stated. If you know you are going to be injured, don't do it. If you know that you have a broken toe, dislocated arm, slipped disc, etc, then by doing an activity that will aggravate these you are putting yourself in harms way.

If a "no" is "I can't dance with you because I need to recover" then it's a postponement, not a refusal. If a "no" is "I won't dance with you because you will injure me*" then I think that either the dancer saying "no" shouldn't be there or the dancer being refused should be pointed in the direction of someone to school them better.
(* or smell or invade my personal space or creep me out...)



Re: "putting yourself before others is morally wrong."
Every moral code of conduct I know of - from the bible to the laws governing the country say that you should cherish others and think on others before yourself. In most religions, the "others" only refers to those of the same creed. In social activities, it normally refers to those of the same group. Selfless rather than selfish. Acting for the whole instead of the individual. The extreme of this is martyrdom and true 'communism'. The other extreme is anarchy and lawlessness. Most people find a balance between them that is comfortable.
In today's society, to be successful you have to have the balance more towards selfish. When belonging to part of a group, the balance has to shift more towards selfless. It's how society functions. It's the "social" part of society.

To approach it from another angle: In a refusal, is their an apology with it? "Sorry- no."? What is the apology for? Why is it needed if the refuser is doing nothing 'wrong'? Is that why people are arguing against this viewpoint; they don't see the need to apologise? Remove the "yes" ethos and people can say "no" without feeling guilty?
What's the argument for not having it? Would you want to be part of the club with a "no" ethos?


The point I am trying to make is that people will always grump about being refused and think the worst, no matter what. Just as most people refusing will/should always feel bad about refusing, no matter the justification.
And there is a big difference between "Can't" and "Won't".

{Anyone got another shovel? This one's worn out }

[frodo]

So you're suggesting the MJ ethos doesn't, or somehow shouldn't apply to better-than-average dancers?

No, I'm saying it suits dancers less as they get significantly better than average.

If so then it seems to me that either you don't include anyone really good in your definition of the community, or that the "always say yes" ethos is something that's only there for the unwashed masses and therefore isn't really a true ethos at all.

Clearly they are part of the community and they punch above their weight within it.

Nevertheless, just as the odd couple you find who only dance with each other lack the weight to change the MJ ethos,
a small proportion of dancers who feel it doesn't apply to them may not be enough to change the overall ethos.

[bigdjiver]

No, I'm saying it suits dancers less as they get significantly better than average...

I was at a Corn Exchange freestyle when a Ceroc teacher and dance god came in. He was instantly mobbed. A from time to time later I saw him still being pursued and mobbed at track end. (including by forumites)

Eventually I saw him in the gents, using the hand drier to dry out his shirt. I made a comment that he should know by now to bring spares. He replied that he had not come to dance, he had popped in just to tell Michaella that he was available to teach next week. 20 minutes later he was still dancing, and still a long way from Michaella.

That was the last time I ever saw him at a freestyle.

I did see two forumites meet at the next freestyle. The opening words of one were that the last one had been great, and, excitedly, "I got a dance with ..., did you?".

I see no reason at all why I should expect every pretty young thing to dance with me, or have to invent a reason why not. To me it smacks of male domination, and women being lesser beings. Letting the more confident women have the same privelege seems to me a token cover-up for that ethos.

"No, thank you." is quite acceptable to me.

OTOH I never refuse a dance, and only postpone one when I have a compelling reason. However I have still not mastered the art of hiding my feelings when a top track comes on and I spot a lady free that can dance at that speed, or like UCP to that track, and I feel a tug at my arm ...

to all of the ladies I have inadvertantly offended, it was just that particular track or that particular moment.

[Lory]

I have still not mastered the art of hiding my feelings when a top track comes on and I spot a lady free that can dance at that speed, or like UCP to that track, and I feel a tug at my arm ...

Oh yes, the dreaded tug... I feel your pain!

How many times have you been trying all evening to get a dance with XYZ, when as if by magic, the perfect song comes on , you see they're going to be free ... you start to make you way towards them when ..... suddenly, you get 'the tug'

[dep]

you see they're going to be free ... you start to make you way towards them when ..... suddenly, you get 'the tug'

and I would NEVER consider saying no.

[Lory]

and I would NEVER consider saying no.

I wouldn't say no either... (I grit my teeth and smile sweetly)

...as one never knows, the 'tugger' might have been going through exactly the same thought process

[Lynn]

Oh yes, the dreaded tug... I feel your pain!

How many times have you been trying all evening to get a dance with XYZ, when as if by magic, the perfect song comes on , you see they're going to be free ... you start to make you way towards them when ..... suddenly, you get 'the tug'

What do you do when you have already made 'contact' with someone for that track with a look and then you get the 'tug'? I sort of feel that the person I have made eye contact with - there is already an agreement to dance with a 'look' so they should get priority...

This happened to me on Wed night and the 'look' person was a newbie who I had never spoken to or danced with before. The 'tug' was a regular. I hestitated - the 'tug' person worked out why I was hesitating and graciously bowed out.

In that situation I really wanted to dance with the beginner as he would have been more discouraged by me 'choosing' the regular.

[Beowulf]

I have standards, but I am not sure I have morals.
I refuse to be a victim and feel guilt.

Likewise.. I WILL refuse dances. NOT because I think I'm better than the person asking (actually knowing my own particular foibles and insecurities it's probably more likely because I think they are better than me! but even that isn't an excuse I use) I WILL turn down a dance if (a) I'm Tired or (b) I want to chat, (c) I don't like the music or (d) I want a "less challenging" dance.

I'm not confident to dance to every track, and I'm also there to meet and chat to friends.

Anyway, I'd like to feel confident that I'll be included and not made to feel inadequate, on the sidelines of an elitist gathering

I don't think Gadget is suggesting that if you say no then you're elitist. He probably knows me better than most people on this forum (except Twirly ) and he knows I turn people down.. and he would NEVER think of me as being elitist ... (I've only been Elite once.. and that was on the old BBC Micro after killing many pirates and mining my way though several asteroid belts.. but excuse me I've taken a geeky diversion here) These days I'm definitely not elite.. more "Mostly Harmless"

For me to say no, I'd pretty much have to have a good reason. Thankfully, I'm in good health...which means (for me), having never danced with someone before, isn't a good enough reason to refuse.

I often dance with strangers.. (Now I'm in London I have to!) but I still turn down dances for my own personal reasons. I never do it spitefully, I never do it if I think someone would be offended or has specifically hunted me out for a dance (or in the case of some of the more shy beginners plucked up the nerve.. it never dawns on them that I'm probably more nervous than they are )

Are these adequate reasons? or am I being overly selfish?

{Anyone got another shovel? This one's worn out }

Borrow mine.. Titanium tipped.. am pretty used to digging holes myself. been to China a few times with some holes I've dug myself in the past I'll leave the rope ladder here for when you need to get back out. What are friends for anyway

[Lory]

What do you do when you have already made 'contact' with someone for that track with a look and then you get the 'tug'?

This happened to me on Wed night

I had it happen to me too on Weds... and this time, I declined the 'tugger' (very politely, I might add), it just seemed the right thing to do in that particular circumstance.
I don't think there's any implicit right or wrong when this happens. You just have to do what feels right at the time and hopefully (as i did) you'll grab a dance with the tugger, as soon as possible after!

[dep]

What do you do when you have already made 'contact' with someone for that track with a look and then you get the 'tug'? I sort of feel that the person I have made eye contact with - there is already an agreement to dance with a 'look' so they should get priority...

"I've already promised THIS dance to someone".
"Next one?"
That is completely different to "No Ethos".
I am in effect asking the "tugger" to withdraw the invitation. Hopefully by mutual agreement, we can proceed.

[Lynn]

"I've already promised THIS dance to someone".
"Next one?"
That is completely different to "No Ethos".

I know its different to the no ethos - threads do go a bit off topic at times!

And saying I'd promised the dance to someone would be a lie, a 'look' is not a spoken promise, that might then sound like an 'excuse' as a way of saying 'no'. Depends on how well you know the respective people.

[Astro]

I know its different to the no ethos - threads do go a bit off topic at times!

And saying I'd promised the dance to someone would be a lie, a 'look' is not a spoken promise, that might then sound like an 'excuse' as a way of saying 'no'. Depends on how well you know the respective people.

There is a thread about this conumdrum somewhere.

[dep]

And saying I'd promised the dance to someone would be a lie, a 'look' is not a spoken promise, that might then sound like an 'excuse' as a way of saying 'no'. Depends on how well you know the respective people.

We will have to differ.
Whether the promise is by word of mouth or agreement from a distance, both parties are aware the next dance is between them.
Now take the obvious next stage.
You take the hand of your partner just after that "tug". The "Tugger" will usually accept that they have asked too late and usually accept the counter invitation for the following dance.
Now go back to the non verbal promise. The circumstances (promise) and outcome (withdrawal of invitation and proposed counter invitation) should be exactly the same.
It seems you are all so intent on taking stripes off Gadget, that normal etiquette is being thrown away, exceptions are taken out of context and being used to support argument that should never arise.

Get off your high horse and start respecting your equals. We can all understand promises and invitations and Yes Ethos and exceptions to the general rule.