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Thread: The "yes" ethos

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Of course it has. It's a fairly black and white view, and the thing about black and white views, are that some people agree with the black, and some people agree with the white.
    Not sure I agree. I think most people who have posted on this thread are 'in the grey'. For the most part, people have said that they largely agree with the 'yes' ethos, but in some circumstances do refuse dances, mostly if it's people who they know will hurt them, are sleazy or inappropriate etc.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Not sure I agree. I think most people who have posted on this thread are 'in the grey'. For the most part, people have said that they largely agree with the 'yes' ethos, but in some circumstances do refuse dances, mostly if it's people who they know will hurt them, are sleazy or inappropriate etc.
    I agree. Most people are 'in the grey'. I was referring to Gadget's post (if you look at the post above posted by David F), and Gadget's post is most definitely not in the grey.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    and now I've had 6 rep points taken off because I agreed with all of Gadgets comments.
    And they didn't even have the decency to say who doesn't like the criticism.
    Complaining about neg rep - thats a long slippery slope that is

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    That's not nice! I've been on the receiving end of the same treatment. I've also had guys looking me up and down, then just say 'no' or even worse: 'I don't think so',

    I'll make a point of looking you up and down and saying "hell, yes" next time

    I've had that a few times myself - the "look up and down" thing followed by a NO - its quite disconcerting, but doesn't overly bother me (sob sob ).

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    I like the "yes" ethos.

    It creates a far better atmosphere than some other places.

    I am happy, if I ask another man (where this post originated from) for him to say no. I do not want someone to feel uncomfortable and say yes anyway.

    I do not like the "you should feel guilty" connotation... I do not think anyone should feel guilty. Feeling guilty is derived from either indirect aggression, which you take on board or personal termol you have taken on board...

    If someone sais no to me, not a problem, I also reserve the "right" to say no and not feel guilt.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    the "look up and down" thing
    Why do people do this? What does looking someone up and down tell you about a person's dance ability that just looking at a single part of their body wouldn't? Unless they've got two left feet I suppose.

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    Registered User Easily Led's Avatar
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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    I agree with Snow White and others and would never say no - although I have to say that no one has hurt me really badly yet. I even danced TWICE with a man who appeared to be in an interesting condition whilst dancing with me because I find it so difficult to say "no". There are a few people I try to avoid dancing with but I don't say no if they are really determined!

    However, to reverse the situation. In an effort to improve my dancing I do try to dance with some experienced dancers as well as the keener beginners. I very rarely get asked to dance in return by experienced dancers but go on asking them if they are available. I do feel guilty about exploiting them as they are often exhausted but does the lack of them asking me mean that i should stop asking them (as Rob D implies)? I almost never ask someone twice in a night (Stoke Bloke excepted ) and apologies if I have done !

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Easily Led View Post
    but does the lack of them asking me mean that i should stop asking them (as Rob D implies)? I almost never ask someone twice in a night (Stoke Bloke excepted ) and apologies if I have done !
    My point was about asking someone multiple times in the same evening and you state yourself that this is something that you rarely do.

    There are some people I rarely ask because I can be pretty certain that they will ask me at some point that night so I don't need to seek them out. Maybe the experienced leads you refer to feel the same way about you?

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    I must admit I am guilty about not asking people back who almost always ask me - until they stop.............! I hope this is the reason the good leads I ask don't bother to ask me - I have judged their enjoyment by their "responsiveness" during the dance and how nicely they end it. However, Gadget has now worried me that some leads can pretend a connection they don't feel. I can't do this - if I smile it is because I like you! If I hardly look at you it is because you have upset me in some way !

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Why do people do this? What does looking someone up and down tell you about a person's dance ability that just looking at a single part of their body wouldn't? Unless they've got two left feet I suppose.
    I have no idea why people would do this when they have only just been asked to dance.

    I would have done this from the side of the dance floor. I would be looking to see if the follower was wearing sticky soled running trainers (indicating that they were very new to dance - and unlikely to be able to perform the turnsin those shoes). I would also see if they were wearing ballet pumps as I have often (but not always) found that people that dance in these shoes have great problems with their balance. I also look at their footwork when they dance and see if they kick thier forward foot in the air as they perform a rockstep as these people are often out of balance and use my arm to yank on when the try to regain thier balance.

    I then look at the persons hands to see if they are wearing lots of sharp rings or bangles on thier wrists. These may cut my hands or trap my fingers (which happened until I learnt this lesson). I make a mental note to avoid these people at all costs.

    I then have a look to see if the follower spends her time running around thier leader irrespective of what the leader is trying to do. I would make a note to avoid these people if possible as I would like to be part of the dance instead of just being a prop.

    In this way I can make a crude distinction between people I would love to dance with, people who would be difficult to dance with but not dangerous (so don't seek them out but don't refuse them if asked), and people who would be dangerous to dance with (so avoid them if at all possible and be prepared to turn them down if given no other option).

    All this can be done by careful observation from the side of the dance floor. You don't have to wait until the person if right infront of you asking you to dance.

    I know for a fact that women do this as well and they have their own criteria and share information with each other.

    My own presumption is that I will say yes unless I have a good reason to either delay (due to loo breaks, drink breaks, change of clothing). I will try to avoid the person if I feel I will have a very unpleasant dance. I will say no if I think I will be in danger of being injured (I really hated one ladies favorute move which was to grab my two middle fingers tightly, perform a spin and try to fall out of the nearest fire escape while tearing my fingers off and taking them with her).
    Last edited by Chef; 10th-April-2008 at 10:58 AM.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Easily Led View Post
    I must admit I am guilty about not asking people back who almost always ask me - until they stop.............! I hope this is the reason the good leads I ask don't bother to ask me - I have judged their enjoyment by their "responsiveness" during the dance and how nicely they end it. However, Gadget has now worried me that some leads can pretend a connection they don't feel. I can't do this - if I smile it is because I like you! If I hardly look at you it is because you have upset me in some way !
    This just goes to show how different we all are I'm generally a smiley person and like to think I am good at making eye contact and smiling during a dance, however there have been some instances - usually the first time I dance with someone I've been trying to get a dance with for a while, or a particularly attractive dancer who unfortunately I've only ever seen on my visits to Southport - where I find it harder to look and smile at them because I like them/like dancing with them.

    I do like the yes ethos and find it hard to say no (although I can't think of many occasions where I've really, really wanted to say no). I have sometimes tried to avoid eye contact in the hope that someone I would rather not dance with, because they have made me feel uncomfortable in the past, might ask someone else instead. Sometimes, however, the person will tap me on the shoulder whilst I am talking to someone else to ask and then I feel that I have to say yes.

    I am guilty of asking people I want to dance with quite a few times in a night at big freestyles/weekenders. I hope they enjoy dancing with me and don't see it as a chore. I am often asked myself but do try to track down my favourites and grab them for at least a couple of dances - my reasoning is that I don't see them very much and I would prefer to always ask and get a dance than wait for them to possibly ask me but not get around to it and miss out on a dance. As a female and relatively new to weekenders I feel that I may not be on anyone's favourtite partner lists yet - the standard is so high and many of the good male dancers are so in demand that it may take a while for them to remember me or I might just not make their list. I do also think though that even if there were some leaders who enjoyed our dances it can be hard for them to get around to find and ask those they would like so as I've said I'd rather find and ask them then risk missing out completely.

    It is nice to be asked though and to be asked for a second or even a third if I asked them initially.

  11. #51
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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I agree. Most people are 'in the grey'. I was referring to Gadget's post (if you look at the post above posted by David F), and Gadget's post is most definitely not in the grey.
    Aha. It sounded more like you thought most people either had a black or white view... Apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I'll make a point of looking you up and down and saying "hell, yes" next time
    Wooooooo!!!

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    The "ethos" is fine the way it is.
    Occasionally some strongly held view will result in a refusal, but hopefully that will be only rarely.

    I was devastated when refused five times in one night. I'm blaming this Forum.

    Recently, I was refused twice by the same Follower. She told a fib to make her refusal seem more acceptable, so I went back with a second and finally a third invitation before succeeding in getting "that dance".
    Had I been told the truth I would have gone away and tried to get corroboration and then acted on it.
    Hmmm. If somebody turns you down a couple of times and they never ask you to dance either, there's a good chance that they don't enjoy dancing with you, for whatever reason. Probably best to just leave that person alone, rather than keep going back.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Flicts View Post
    Hmmm. If somebody turns you down a couple of times and they never ask you to dance either, there's a good chance that they don't enjoy dancing with you, for whatever reason. Probably best to just leave that person alone, rather than keep going back.
    That's my thoughts exactly!

    Personally, I wont 'keep' asking the same person all the time either, even if they never refuse. Otherwise, I also take that as a sign they doesn't really enjoy dancing with me. Which is fine, as I'd rather that, than someone just 'doing me a favour'
    Last edited by Lory; 10th-April-2008 at 02:06 PM. Reason: missed a word out
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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Interesting the polarization this post has caused:

    So, if someone doesn't want to say "Yes" to the man who previously damaged her back by physically forcing her into a dip, that's because she's lazy and arrogant?

    Or when someone says "no" to the man who leers at her all through the dance, while his hands keep wandering just this side of legality, I suppose that's laziness and arrogance too?

    Or someone says "no" to the man who's been dancing 3 months and insists on correcting her and instructing her all the way through the dance? [This one is greyer, but I really don't think you can cite "laziness and arrogance" as the problem, at least not on her part. And it sure as heck isn't 'cos she looked him up and down before deciding whether he was a good enough dancer].

    I note all my examples are of things ladies have to put up with. I also note all the people saying "Right on, Gadget" are men. I suspect there's a connection.

    I agree with a fair bit of the rest of Gadget's post, but I find the first paragraph indefensible, to be honest.
    As a supporter of the Gadget post, just a quick reply to your post David.

    I agree with what you say and of course(!) there are going to be exceptions - and I am fully aware of the examples you give (and more). Clearly it is for an individual to make decisions, based on their own personal boundaries. Still, it is the principle (a community) that is important, I feel. Maybe there are other/additional ways to address the 'issues' you raise.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Still, it is the principle (a community) that is important, I feel. Maybe there are other/additional ways to address the 'issues' you raise.
    Not at all sure I understand what you mean? Do you mean that the principle of always saying yes is more important than the individual's right to refuse a dance (to protect themselves from injury/sleaze/stinkers whatever)?

    I think David, and most other people who have posted here, are all in agreement that the "yes ethos" is in principle very good, but that sometimes it should be acceptable to refuse a dance, for numerous reasons, many of which listed in this thread. You seem to agree with this, so that's why I'm confused by the last two sentences of your post.

    I'd be curious to hear what suggestions you've got (as alternatives to refusing dances?) to address these issues?

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Maybe there are other/additional ways to address the 'issues' you raise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    I'd be curious to hear what suggestions you've got (as alternatives to refusing dances?) to address these issues?
    I 'think' what JL might be saying is, one needs to try to 'help' the person by giving them an insight as to 'why', as they might not be aware, they stink or do dangerous moves, so they can try and do something about it...

    But wow, what a can of worms one might open

    I think i'll leave that job, to the less selfish
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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Not at all sure I understand what you mean? Do you mean that the principle of always saying yes is more important than the individual's right to refuse a dance (to protect themselves from injury/sleaze/stinkers whatever)?

    I think David, and most other people who have posted here, are all in agreement that the "yes ethos" is in principle very good, but that sometimes it should be acceptable to refuse a dance, for numerous reasons, many of which listed in this thread. You seem to agree with this, so that's why I'm confused by the last two sentences of your post.

    I'd be curious to hear what suggestions you've got (as alternatives to refusing dances?) to address these issues?
    Do you mean that the principle of always saying yes is more important than the individual's right to refuse a dance (to protect themselves from injury/sleaze/stinkers whatever)?

    - Er, no. The opposite. As I said....of course, there are exceptions - and an individual has to decide for themselves whether someone else is dangerous/sleazey...etc. In my experience (ie talking with the ladies I go dancing with) of course they have had the experiences (yankers, sleazeballs and stinkers (in fact one guy is known as 'Mr. Halitosis') - however, they are the exception.

    I'd be curious to hear what suggestions you've got (as alternatives to refusing dances?) to address these issues

    In terms of alternatives to dealing with it. Well, perhaps there are some things which could be done:

    Stinkers:
    1. Providing every new joiner with an 'etiquette' card - which includes an exhortation to be fragrant.
    2. Include (as Ijig do) 'smellies' in the rest rooms.
    3. Mints on the front desk (as at some venues)

    Sleazeballs
    I got lots of stories on this in the early days with regard to one guy. I implored Mrs J-L and friends to report this guy several times. They never did this - and we did discuss it a lot - why's and wherefores etc.

    Another approach which a friend used was to call the bluff of one particular guy - and that has now changed his behaviour.

    There is no single solution - and I think we have had threads on this subject before.

    Yankers
    Well, this is something I experience with some 'robust' followers as well. For me, I grin and bear it - and try and manage it through. Obviously again it is for an individual to make a decision on yes or no.
    If someone is genuinely likely to cause injury then this should be brought to the attention of the venue managers imho.

    Comments?

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    Registered User Little Black Dress's Avatar
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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Providing Smellies in the rest room, as JiveLad mentioned, is, in principle, a good idea. Unfortunately for me, I tend to be allergic to these sprays and as soon as they get sprayed in the rest room, I start sneezing and can't stop my nose running! This can ruin my night as I spend most of it with a hankie over my nose and when I do dance, trying to last a whole song without spraying all over my poor partner!

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad
    Lots of sensible stuff
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I 'think' what JL might be saying is, one needs to try to 'help' the person by giving them an insight as to 'why', as they might not be aware, they stink or do dangerous moves, so they can try and do something about it...

    But wow, what a can of worms one might open

    I think i'll leave that job, to the less selfish
    Aha. This all makes sense now. I wasn't sure what JL meant (I'm being a bit dim today).

    Think I agree with Lory, though. Trying to deal with some of these issues could be like openin up a can of worms. If it's people I know, I might try to give them some advice, as I did a few years back with someone who had bad BO. If I had issues with sleazy behaviour or inappropriate behaviour at my local venue, I might also raise the issue with the teacher or venue manager. If it is a person I only occasionally see at freestyles, I might just avoid that person altogether...

    JL has some very good suggestions, though, and you're right, these things have been discussed lots of times before. There are more and more venues/organisers that provide things like mints at the front desk and deodorants in the toilets. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work on a lot of stinkers, who seem oblivious to their own BO.

    There's always going to be people who are stinkers/yankers/sleazes, or just people with really bad attitudes. I don't think there's anything we can do to completely sort these problems out.

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    Re: The "yes" ethos

    who seem oblivious to their own BO.
    I suspect the majority are completely unaware they have this problem and it probably has little to do with hygiene.

    It appears that I suffer from bad breath. I can't tell. No partner has ever raised it as an issue.
    Three of my pupils have told me (well three in ten years can't be completely bad or can it?) in less than polite fashion.
    I have asked both dentist and doctor for solutions, neither were at all helpful.
    I do what I can but I have no idea whether it helps/works or not.

    So it comes back to my point from many weeks ago:- Ladies be brave enough, honest enough and exercise your rights. Comment if and when necessary.

    It achieves little to talk behind the offenders back. We're back to respect for fellow dancers.

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