The "yes" ethos

[dep]

and now I've had 6 rep points taken off because I agreed with all of Gadgets comments.
And they didn't even have the decency to say who doesn't like the criticism.

[dep]

and it gets worse.
Another anon that does not like criticism.

[Little Monkey]

{Sorry: this has turned into a bit of a rant...}
I think that the only people who tend to see a problem with the ethos of saying "Yes" are selfish people who have a lazy and arrogant attitude: I've paid to be entertained - now entertain me. If you want me to dance with you, then ask and I'll look you up and down to see if you are worthy. I've paid my money, I will dance where on the dance floor I like, how I like and with whom I like.

Hang on just one wee minute, mate!

Are you saying that I, and other people who occasionally turn down the offer of a dance, are "selfish people who have a lazy and arrogant attitude"? No matter the reason for our refusal?

I don't like arrogant hotshot types who refuse to dance with anyone who's not deemed 'good enough' for them, either. But to automatically claim that everyone who ever turn people down for a dance has this attitude, is a bit rich.

Yes, I do think that if I pay to go to a freestyle I should be able to chose who I want to dance with, and to what tracks, and when I want to have a break! Like I've stated earlier - dancing is meant to be fun, and I can guarantee you it's not fun to dance with someone who hurts me to such a degree that I can't dance for the rest of the night because the nerves are trapped in my back. This has in fact happened more than once! Equally, dancing with someone who stinks, or is sleazy (I've had men touching me in very inappropriate ways on the dance floor!) is not a pleasant experience, so why on earth should I feel guilty about turning such people down?

I also do turn peole down if I need a break, or if I really don't like that track. Usually I will then go and find that person again later, to dance with them.

I do believe in being respectful to people, and doing our best to make everyone feel welcome. But I do defend my right to say no every now and again, too! Does this mean I should not be welcome to any more freestyles, because I "don't really feel like helping your fellow gang members", so I should stay at home?

"But if you come out and want to join in the fun, then it's expected that you join in the fun." But that's just it. It's meant to be fun, not an obligation to please everyone else at the expense of your own safety and enjoyment!

[SnowWhite]

Having been on the receiving end of refusals, and knowing how at the wrong moment it can shake confidence to the core and for that moment feel quite devastating - I find it almost impossible to refuse a dance.

I am still very flattered to be asked, every time I'm asked.

I agree totally with the 'yes' ethos. On balance, my dance with a person who may not have been my first choice, is probably much easier to bear than the effects that a refusal may have caused.

At the last SP I watched in dismay as somebody in the group I was with turned down a very tentative request from a very nervous guy - only to seek out a 'better' dancer during the same track. I recognised the look on his face from the way I had felt many times before (I've commented on it before here on the forum) and scooped him up for a dance very quickly - passing him on to friends soon after.

Do the times he was asked make up for the way he felt from the refusal?

I hope so...

I know we all have the right to refuse - and I am sure there are circumstances where it feels justified. I just prefer not to.

[Little Monkey]

At the last SP I watched in dismay as somebody in the group I was with turned down a very tentative request from a very nervous guy - only to seek out a 'better' dancer during the same track. I recognised the look on his face from the way I had felt many times before (I've commented on it before here on the forum) and scooped him up for a dance very quickly - passing him on to friends soon after.

That's not nice! I've been on the receiving end of the same treatment. I've also had guys looking me up and down, then just say 'no' or even worse: 'I don't think so', just to stalk off and find a young beautiful skinny thing to dance with instead.

I don't like saying no, either. I do dance with everyone from complete beginners to the top teachers, but from time to time I do say no. I always try to say it in a nice way, particularly if it's someone I've never danced with before and who doesn't know me, but refusals always sting.

And unfortunately, even if you get asked to dance ten times in one evening, but get turned down (nastily) once, that can be enough to spoil your night. It's never nice to be turned down, but some ways are worse than others.

[Steven666]

Do I hold a record for 6/7 refusals (& 5 on the trot) from the same person? & yes I have given up though I got entertainment from hearing the excuses.

[Battlecat]

IMHO the "yes" ethos is a good thing in principle. But people should see this an etiquette guide, rather than be dogmatic about it.

The real trouble comes when there is an absolute expectation that someone MUST say yes when asked for a dance. Because of the reaction & feeling it can promote when the request is met with a refusal.

In general I'd say I fall stringly into the "always say yes when asked for a dance" camp. More recently though, I've found I've started to say "no" a bit more. Especially on class nights where freestyle time is limited, there isn't enough time to dance with everyone you'd like to. And if you say "yes" everytime you're asked, then you don't get the chance to dance with some of the people you specifically want to dance with. But there can be an outlook of (or maybe I'm just too sensitive about it!) "but you're a public service, you HAVE to dance when asked, it's my RIGHT" and a big harrrummph if the request is met with a refusal.



PM

As a follower I tend to ask more than I am asked, and have never as yet said "no" but would if I felt uncomfortable (either through inappropriateness or being too rough). I have frequently been turned down, but I feel that is "the luck of the draw" that on busy nights, the leaders are often harrased and do not even have time for a drink/rest etc. and often start to have a hounded look about them.

I appreciate everytime someone accepts my request, but also accept that they have the right to not want to dance with me - for what ever reason.

PM, you are right some followers do feel that they have a right to always get a dance - especially from you!! But what we all have to remember is that we are all there to enjoy ourselves and that we shouldn't expect anyone to dance with us because it is "our right".

I saw the situation from another angle a few weeks ago, the room was busy and very hot and I had just left the dance floor for a drink when someone asked me to dance - their face dropped when they saw how hot and flushed I was, they obviously thought I was going to say no, i didn't just had a quick drink and had a lovely dance.

[TheTramp]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here. I don't like it when I hear teachers announce from the stage that 'We never turn down a dance'. I wonder how many beginners that has put off in their first few weeks, feeling this inability to say no all evening, expecially in those first few 'nervous' weeks.

However, I do like the fact that there is this culture of saying yes. After all, it's probably the only way anyone will ever dance with me when I ask. And I very rarely turn down anyone who asks me, for anything other than a genuine reason (although, given my general state of 'brokeness', this does seem to happen at times recently).

As stated, people pay to come out for a nights dancing. It's not a social club in a strict sense, it is something that you pay for. When you go to the cinema, which probably costs about the same, no-one tells you what film you are going to see. And, I feel that no-one is indebted to say yes to a request for a dance. However, as stated by others, I would hate it to become more of a 'no' than a 'yes' culture, and no-one likes a hotshot. Probably not even their mothers

On the subject of refusal, once I've asked someone to dance twice, and been turned down twice, I don't ask again. I figure that they don't wanna dance with me (I can't help being a smelly, off-beat, yanking perv!), and I don't want to put myself through the pain of more refusals. Of course, if they ask me to dance at some point later, I'd never turn them down

[MartinHarper]

More recently though, I've found I've started to say "no" a bit more. Especially on class nights where freestyle time is limited, there isn't enough time to dance with everyone you'd like to. And if you say "yes" everytime you're asked, then you don't get the chance to dance with some of the people you specifically want to dance with. But there can be an outlook of (or maybe I'm just too sensitive about it!) "but you're a public service, you HAVE to dance when asked, it's my RIGHT" and a big harrrummph if the request is met with a refusal.

Hmm.

Me to some woman I haven't danced with yet: "Would you care for a dance?"
Her: "Yes, but not with you. You're not one of the people I specifically want to dance with."
Her to someone else: "Would you care for a dance?".

Yeah, I might notice that.

[Isis]

and no-one likes a hotshot. Probably not even their mothers

I wonder if hotshots actually know they're hotshots?

yanking perv!

Misread that at first and thought I was on RobD's thread.

[robd]

Well, this topic has probably been covered from every angle on here before but that doesn't mean it's not worth revisiting.

I very rarely refuse a dance from someone that I do not know (and not often with those that I do know but it does happen). I'll always have a reason - whether that's a valid one in the eyes of the person being refused will vary.

I think the 'yes' ethos is a great plus point for MJ but there are followers (and no doubt leaders but my experience is with the followers) who will take advantage of it and repeatedly ask me during a night knowing that it's unlikely I will say no to them. Some of these 'pouncers' are people that I do not particularly enjoy dancing with. I wish there was an etiquette whereby if I have been asked for a dance by a lady (and agreed to that dance) that she would then expect that if I wished to dance with her again that evening that I would take the lead in asking her to do so and wait for me to do this rather than her asking me repeatedly. Of course, the usual gender imbalance doesn't help in this respect but I can hope. I certainly try to apply this rule with followers who I like to dance with and whom I ask to dance.

and now I've had 6 rep points taken off because I agreed with all of Gadgets comments.
And they didn't even have the decency to say who doesn't like the criticism.

Well, if this was from one individual it's probably quite easy to work out - not many people on here have rep power of 6.

[JiveLad]

{Sorry: this has turned into a bit of a rant...}
I think that the only people who tend to see a problem with the ethos of saying "Yes" are selfish people who have a lazy and arrogant attitude: I've paid to be entertained - now entertain me. If you want me to dance with you, then ask and I'll look you up and down to see if you are worthy. I've paid my money, I will dance where on the dance floor I like, how I like and with whom I like.

MJ is not just a dance. It's a social "club" with it's own sub-set of social etiquette. Once you are in the club, you are part of the club: you represent the club. You take on responsibility for not only your actions within the club, but every other club member's.
It's not a one-way process of buying a service or device. You are paying a door fee to be let into the MJ club. The payment allows you to step over the threshold, it does not permit you to be arrogant, rude, disrespectful or a pain to anyone inside. It's an entry fee. You get to enter. You have not paid to do whatever you want, dance wherever you want, dance however you want, dance with only those you want. It's not about you, you, you. It's about we, us, the community as a whole.

Was anyone in the brownies or scouts or even in a gang? The "Yes" attitude is not an obligation, it's you helping your fellow gang member and them helping you. Sure you can refuse, and I'll presume there is a valid reason. The fact that you think it is valid means that it must be.
If you don’t want to be part of the gang, if you don't really feel like helping your fellow gang members, then stay at home and don't. But if you come out and want to join in the fun, then it's expected that you join in the fun.

MJ is a partner dance where we dance as a couple. We form hundreds of partnerships on the dance floor. Isn't it a much more conducive to the dance when people start with an open, default "yes" mentality rather than a closed "no" that has to be won over?

Should we feel guilty about saying "no"? I think so. No matter the reason, there should always be that pang of guilt because we are letting down a fellow dancer. But I don't think that the 'guilt' should invalidate the reason for the refusal or guarantee acceptance the next time you're asked.

Easily the best post on the forum I have read this year.

[David Franklin]

Interesting the polarization this post has caused:

{Sorry: this has turned into a bit of a rant...}
I think that the only people who tend to see a problem with the ethos of saying "Yes" are selfish people who have a lazy and arrogant attitude: I've paid to be entertained - now entertain me. If you want me to dance with you, then ask and I'll look you up and down to see if you are worthy. I've paid my money, I will dance where on the dance floor I like, how I like and with whom I like.

So, if someone doesn't want to say "Yes" to the man who previously damaged her back by physically forcing her into a dip, that's because she's lazy and arrogant?

Or when someone says "no" to the man who leers at her all through the dance, while his hands keep wandering just this side of legality, I suppose that's laziness and arrogance too?

Or someone says "no" to the man who's been dancing 3 months and insists on correcting her and instructing her all the way through the dance? [This one is greyer, but I really don't think you can cite "laziness and arrogance" as the problem, at least not on her part. And it sure as heck isn't 'cos she looked him up and down before deciding whether he was a good enough dancer].

I note all my examples are of things ladies have to put up with. I also note all the people saying "Right on, Gadget" are men. I suspect there's a connection.

I agree with a fair bit of the rest of Gadget's post, but I find the first paragraph indefensible, to be honest.

[TheTramp]

Interesting the polarization this post has caused:

Of course it has. It's a fairly black and white view, and the thing about black and white views, are that some people agree with the black, and some people agree with the white.

I'm not saying that it's bad or wrong, but obviously Gadget has his view on what modern jive is, and spme other people might have a different view - for example, the people who have the 'I pay my money, it's my night' view. And they're just as entitled to their view, in the same way that Gadget is. As long as people respect each others views in this area too. To say that I am right, and you are wrong, when it comes to ideas that are black and white, is always asking for trouble.

For me, as always, I'm much more in the grey area inbetween (though, just to say, I do tend to the Gadget end of the scale than the other).

[philsmove]

Do I hold a record for 6/7 refusals (& 5 on the trot).

No

I have had 2 entire evenings of refusals
One at an “away game” (from regular contributes to this forum)
The other at Tango
But they are, I am pleased to say, an exception
And I expect I have only have myself to blame
PS
Yes I changed my shirt
Yes I had a shower

[Beowulf]

I'm not pro "Yes" nor anti "Yes" ethos orientated but I am a polar opposite to Gadget on the dance floor. Gadget will barely sit down all evening.. .. me on the other hand will barely stand up

I pay my money to have a few dances and meet my friends. that often involves me sitting out chatting. It's not all about the dance.. it's the social aspect. And to be sociable I have to be unsociable sometimes (now there's a contradiction in terms)

I mean I don't want to dance to every track.. I don't like every track that's played.. I dance to what I think I'm capable of dancing to and don't dance to anything I think too challenging. If I'm tired .. I sit down. If I'm not enjoying myself.. I sit down. If I want to have a drink and a chat to friends.. I sit down.

Yes I do feel guilty about saying no. I do it carefully and with consideration to the other persons feelings. If Someone asks me and I say no then when (if) I'm dancing later I'll try and make a point to find them and ask them back.

Dancing is an excuse to meet people and have a chat. I don't see friends any other time of the week.. heck I don't see friends at all (other than Twirly) these days. I'm going dancing this weekend on the off chance of meeting up with my old buddy McJester.. Chances are I won't be dancing all night then either.

As gadget says dancing is a social thing.. I pay my money to do what I want to do.. I'm there to have fun .. and I have fun by meeting people.. not participating in some non stop endurance event.

As The G-Man says "The "Yes" attitude is not an obligation"

[Beowulf]

(I can't help being a smelly, off-beat, yanking perv!)

You're not off-beat !!!

[PretzelMeister]

I think the 'yes' ethos is a great plus point for MJ but there are followers (and no doubt leaders but my experience is with the followers) who will take advantage of it and repeatedly ask me during a night knowing that it's unlikely I will say no to them. Some of these 'pouncers' are people that I do not particularly enjoy dancing with.

Do you think this is reasonable, Rob?

Is there a cross-over point at which the priority of your dance night ever makes it as high as to get on a par with those of the people asking you to dance?

At any point does whatever the negative feeling you experience when not whole-heartedly agreeing to a dance start to outweigh the potential negative feeling the requestor may experience at a refusal?

Or should you purely be a passive victim of circumstance, unable to exert any control over your own dance night?

There are always going to be some people we enjoy dancing with more than others. I'm not suggesting people should get into the habit of refusing - on the contrary. I'm just saying that, especially perhaps in the circumstances you describe above, you shouldn't get beaten-up if you were to politely decline occasionally.

PM

[Agente Secreto]

Interesting the polarization this post has caused:

As a relative newbie to the Forum I've seen lots of polarisation in the threads I've read so far. I'd expect that to continue otherwise no point in having a forum in the first place...............

{Sorry: this has turned into a bit of a rant...}

I think that the only people who tend to see a problem with the ethos of saying "Yes" are selfish people who have a lazy and arrogant attitude: I've paid to be entertained - now entertain me. If you want me to dance with you, then ask and I'll look you up and down to see if you are worthy. I've paid my money, I will dance where on the dance floor I like, how I like and with whom I like.

Gadget I think you've totally missed the sentiment behind what people have been saying. None of the answers strike me as coming from selfish, lazy or arrogant people who spend the night being

......arrogant, rude, disrespectful or a pain to anyone inside

If they did they'd rapidly be ostracised everywhere. No-one has said they start with anything other than a default of yes, and I've not detected anyone needing to be won over, they simply admit that there are occasions where the default is overturned and for whatever reason an invitation to dance is declined. The early part of your post itself is

......arrogant, rude, disrespectful........

..........MJ is not just a dance. It's a social "club" with it's own sub-set of social etiquette. Once you are in the club, you are part of the club: you represent the club. You take on responsibility for not only your actions within the club, but every other club member's.

Absolutely agree, up to a point. In my regular venue I am a community animal and much to my wife's annoyance (we average 2 dances together a night!) spend all night seeking out people that are not getting up much and trying to make them feel welcome. But when I go to freestyles, weekenders then just like Beowulf I pay my money to do what I want to do. Most of the time that's dancing but sometimes I like to chat, or watch, or even eat cake. I do not feel at all guilty about that.

We've had some mention of follows preserving themselves from people that have hurt them previously, or made them feel uncomfortable. I tell my wife and daughter not to dance with people that do this. Should they feel guilty about that - hell no because if the said guy kept on hurting them or making them feel uncomfortable then I'd be having a word with him and that would be likely to cause far more offense.

This week I actually turned down some dances even at my local venue - but I did so because I had a bad back. I deliberately avoided several ladies who I know will arm wrestle with me out of self-preservation, I feel no guilt in doing that and had they asked me to dance I would have said no. I will dance with these ladies as soom as I'm back to normal but if every time I did they hurt me I might soon take a different approach.

I share the feeling of shame that Snow White mentions in someone turning down one dancer merely to go off and seek someone more 'worthy' but people responding to this thread have not been taking that line.

[Agente Secreto]

and now I've had 6 rep points taken off because I agreed with all of Gadgets comments.
And they didn't even have the decency to say who doesn't like the criticism.

Although I don't share your point of view about Gadget's post I don't like anonymous raids on rep