Men having men - is it frowned upon?

[killingtime]

Fix'd.

DS probably hand rolls his own CSS for this site with the quote button on the left. He's hardcore like that.

[Sporty Jeff]

are you trying to quote ? press the button in the bottom left of the posts

yes

[Dreadful Scathe]

DS probably hand rolls his own CSS for this site with the quote button on the left. He's hardcore like that.

ha yes - i meant to say to the left of the bottom right set of buttons but my brain shortened it

[dave the scaffolder]

Hi,
The Mods have already reported back to me.
Sorry Dave.
Matter ended.
I'm obviously too sensitive.
And yes, I am new to this Forum and it's liberal attitudes.

dep my lover no offence taken, I will be glad to buy you and djtrev a pint or two at Southport.

Sporty Jeff how can you a Taxi Dancer, who has helped me enormously in my dancing ever offend me.

Remember we all have different boundaries and this only adds to the rich diversity of the dancing world.

DTS Dave XXX XX

[fletch]

Okay, my point of view:

I am gay



I see why some men would be offended if asked to dance by a man and for this reason I never ask men who I don't know. But I'll happily dance with a man or a woman - lead or follow.

I am competing in the champs with a man who some of you may know. That should be interesting to see the expressions on some faces...

I normally do the asking for you

Yes it will be interesting, i'v had another idea for a theam

[Trouble]

Excellent debate and very few are offended or upset by same sex dancing which is good. A year ago, we all thought different im sure. Even me.

So we are progressing and rightly so.

tiger pants, you will have to get past me first to get to DTS.

Maxine, just learning the drops so glad you was ok. Nearly dropped somebody last week.

Gerry, so glad you like being troubled.

The fact still remains though, there are some very homophobic, stiff, green, ignorant, unsure, nervous or whatever you want to call them, people out there who do see same sex dancing as some sort of horror that should not be allowed. Its a shame but its still there. And its generally male on male dancing that is frowned upon.

I think some men look great, some men look hilarious and some men do look gross but thats no different to normal dancing with mixed sex.

Whatever and whoever it is, it would be nice if this fear of men on men dancing could be removed.

Then again it would be nice if all dancers looked like Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie,...

[MartinHarper]

Just to put my observations on this subject.

Thanks trev. They are welcome.

... any tenderness in the dance,for instance,face to face,stroking the arm,face, body seems to be more often than not,male to female. The follow is always the one taken into a dip etc.

I would say that tenderness in the dance is normally initiated by the leader. That's part of leading, I guess. And it's (99%) always the follow that is dipped or lifted. On the other hand, it's possible to lead my follow to "caress" me (in-out-chest, comb, etc), or I can choose how to connect with my lead, so it's not entirely one-way.

These instances are in my opinion a normal,natural thing in male/female combination.

Interesting. It sounds like you expect to see men initiating tenderness towards women, and women responding. So while tenderness is often regarded as a feminine trait, the initiation and control of tenderness is a male trait. In other words, men go first. Thus men dip women, not the other way round.

The other thing I gather is that you don't want to have any tenderness in the way you deal with men. I'm not clear if you're saying that tenderness between men is abnormal and unnatural, but it is clear that you don't want any part of it yourself.

There are so many posts saying what a good follower Jamie is. If you look at the Youtube videos that Lee refers to, it is plain to see why in the Lee/Jamie video. Disregarding the fact that we all know who is leading, which one LOOKS as if he is the follower?

I'm not really sure what you're asking here. I mean, Jamie looks like he's following, and indeed he is. Did you mean something more than that?

[SteveK]

The fact still remains though, there are some very homophobic, stiff, green, ignorant, unsure, nervous or whatever you want to call them, people out there who do see same sex dancing as some sort of horror that should not be allowed. Its a shame but its still there. And its generally male on male dancing that is frowned upon.

I think this issue is perhaps more complex. There are many many threads bemoaning the lack of male dancers, and the need to make Modern Jive/Ceroc more attractive.

I'll happily admit that I was really sh*t scared the first couple of times I went to classes. I'm probably the ideal Ceroc demographic (bit of disposable income, relatively young, and male) of the people they are trying to attract. I was scared enough with women asking me to dance, and men dancing together competently (and even worse asking me to dance) would have scared me even more, and I would have been even less likely to return the second week.

Hence it seems a reasonable commercial decision for a venue manager to ensure that it is made as welcoming as possible for nervous scared new male dancers to keep them vaguely within their comfort zone, even if means annoying a few expert dancers. This means that more men are carry on coming, which means that there are less "women over", which means that more women carry on coming, which means more income....

(I've never condoned homophobia, and actually would like to learn how to follow. Since arriving in Oz, I don't think I've ever seen male leader/follower dancing, but would like to start doing this to improve my style and leading).

[dave the scaffolder]

The thing is with men dancing with men is that......

To dance with another man the men are usually experienced dancers, in my experience I have never asked/or been asked by anyone less than a good dancer.

We all know that man retention is paramount in any kind of dancing so us dancers who do dance with other men would not ask a new man dancer as it would make them feel uncomfortable. None of us want that.

This is an issue for the more relaxed and experienced dancer, this of course is just my humble opinion.


DTS Dave XXX XXX

[Martin]

(I've never condoned homophobia, and actually would like to learn how to follow. Since arriving in Oz, I don't think I've ever seen male leader/follower dancing, but would like to start doing this to improve my style and leading).

Well mate, let me know when you are next down on the Gold Coast and I will be happy to dance with you.

I have danced with my daughter and I also dance with my son, I do not see any difference, in that I dance with respect as to what is comfortable with that person.

In fact my son was recently learning a routine, and he was not too sure on his lead on some moves, so I got him to do it with me following, then, I did the moves with him following to show him the correct technique, and how it felt for the follow. He then did the moves again with me following until it was correct.

[Martin]

The thing is with men dancing with men is that......

To dance with another man the men are usually experienced dancers, in my experience I have never asked/or been asked by anyone less than a good dancer.

We all know that man retention is paramount in any kind of dancing so us dancers who do dance with other men would not ask a new man dancer as it would make them feel uncomfortable. None of us want that.

This is an issue for the more relaxed and experienced dancer, this of course is just my humble opinion.


DTS Dave XXX XXX

I would never consider asking a male beginner for a dance, only experienced dancers I know or teachers.

[SteveK]

Well mate, let me know when you are next down on the Gold Coast and I will be happy to dance with you.

Thanks for the lovely offer - I would normally be very keen to take you up on it.

However I've been offered a couple of month long secondment to the Cairns office of the firm I'm working for. (The stinger season is finishing, so it's only the crocodiles, stingrays, snakes and spiders I need to worry about). Perhaps when I return to Brissie in a couple of month's time please?

[fletch]

Thanks for the lovely offer - I would normally be very keen to take you up on it.

However I've been offered a couple of month long secondment to the Cairns office of the firm I'm working for. (The stinger season is finishing, so it's only the crocodiles, stingrays, snakes and spiders I need to worry about). Perhaps when I return to Brissie in a couple of month's time please?

unlike when your in the UK and than you get a 'mad Fletch' to worry about.


sounds like your things are going ok,

[Astro]

I get a real boost out of being asked to dance by a female lead.


Is it the same for men being asked by male leads?

The other thing is that, if same sex dancing is frowned upon. it is Sexual Descrimination. I think the Sexual Descrimination Act would forbid venues from saying that the organisers will "go mad" if men dance with men.

[Tiger Pants]

tiger pants, you will have to get past me first to get to DTS.

Don't worry, I wouldn't walk past you just to get a dance from yer man

[dave the scaffolder]

Don't worry, I wouldn't walk past you just to get a dance from yer man

Oh gutted am I.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[killingtime]

I get a real boost out of being asked to dance by a female lead.

Is it the same for men being asked by male leads?

Ooh, is that not two fairly different things? If a woman asks you to follow her then you are dancing the gender assumed role. If a guy asks another guy to follow him then the other guy is doing the opposite to gender specialized role. I'm only pointing this out so I can witter about the differences.

If I, as a lead, am asked to lead a guy I'm not really any more or less flattered that being asked by any other follower. They've probably seen me dance with another guy and thought "well that guy dances with guys and I fancy following"; that's not really any more flattering than a female follower thinking "I saw that guy dance and he seems alright" (but maybe better than "God, there are so many women over... oh well I suppose that guy over there will do").

If a guy asks me to follow him, on the other hand, then I would be more flattered as, in a given dance event, there are plenty of followers out there that can bring significantly more to the dance than I could (I'm not saying this is the case will all male followers, mind). The fact that they wanted me to follow is cool. On the other hand this still isn't gender specific... if a female lead was explicitly asking me to follow them I'd be just as flattered.

[Idle Mind]

The thing is with men dancing with men is that......

To dance with another man the men are usually experienced dancers

Which is one of the reasons that its so enjoyable to watch

I can understand why some people might think its *unfair* for men to be partnering each other when there are more women at the event, but really I've never seen two men dancing together when there weren't also men standing around not dancing as well. So its not as though followers are really missing out. Or maybe its just the two men dancing together are usually the really good* dancers who everyone wants to dance with?

I'll also admit it concerns me a little that some men do seem so concerned about *dancing* with another man, reading a little too much into a dance, maybe? What do they think is actually going on when they dance with me?

I'd hope its not frowned on in Ceroc in general, fortunately Edinburgh seems to be fine with it

*good as in both technically good, but also really nice to dance with

[djtrev]

Thanks trev. They are welcome.



I would say that tenderness in the dance is normally initiated by the leader. That's part of leading, I guess. And it's (99%) always the follow that is dipped or lifted. On the other hand, it's possible to lead my follow to "caress" me (in-out-chest, comb, etc), or I can choose how to connect with my lead, so it's not entirely one-way.

That is the point I am trying to make.Obviously not very well it would seem.
I am comfortable initiating the tenderness to my female follow and would feel comfortable with any tenderness that would be returned.I could not accept it from a male.


Interesting. It sounds like you expect to see men initiating tenderness towards women, and women responding. So while tenderness is often regarded as a feminine trait, the initiation and control of tenderness is a male trait. In other words, men go first. Thus men dip women, not the other way round.

The other thing I gather is that you don't want to have any tenderness in the way you deal with men. I'm not clear if you're saying that tenderness between men is abnormal and unnatural, but it is clear that you don't want any part of it yourself.

Spot on



I'm not really sure what you're asking here. I mean, Jamie looks like he's following, and indeed he is. Did you mean something more than that?

Yes.I hope that the following will not offend anybody-no offence meant.
I do not know Jamie but from what I have read and seen of him I assume he can be a very effeminet young man.In the video he has all the poise and style of a young lady.On the other hand it appears to me that someone like DTS could not do that dance and show the same poise and style.But he would enjoy it just as much!!!

[djtrev]

Sorry there are some answers to some of Martins post in there but i obviously havent mastered that yet