Men having men - is it frowned upon?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Just to put my observations on this subject.
I consider myself at the beginner/intermediate stage of MJ.
To me MJ is a male/female dance with the male leading the female into various moves with fairly defined boundaries.Hopefully I can explain this by saying that any tenderness in the dance,for instance,face to face,stroking the arm,face, body seems to be more often than not,male to female.The follow is always the one taken into a dip etc.These instances are in my opinion a normal,natural thing in male/female combination.
I would be mortified to be a follow in this situation.
Before I typed this reply I looked at the 4 examples on Youtube suggested by Lee and there were elements in all 4 videos that I would not feel comfortable with.

Just out of interest, does your dance teacher on stage tell people it is a man lead dance where men dance with women?

I ask because thats what is always said down here, and I believed it till I started going to weekenders Etc.

[killingtime]

I choose who I dance with and who I don't, it's also not my problem if men ask me to dance and not other women.

And I'm glad about that. You are one of the best followers I've ever met (and a fab lead too, damn you) and it would be as annoying to feel that we couldn't ask you for a dance as some of the great female followers we also try and get for a dance .

[~*~Saligal~*~]

Am I wrong in stating that old school tango was practised by men dancing with other men prior to going to the brothels?

Not at all - the first ballet dancers were all men (dressing up as women) Dancing Online, History of Ballet

[Martin]

Well, went dancing last night, wont say where but was told that the organiser/runner of the venue is very against men dancing with men and would not allow her staff/venue helpers to do it.

You have not said if they were also against women dancing with women as well. If this is the case at least they are consistant.

If they are against "same gender" dancing, that is not quite as bad as singling out one sex.

I am not gay - but that is rather irrelivant unless I saw every dance as foreplay.

The first time I saw an organiser "object" was in about 1995 - Manchester - I was helping out with a busk session, when I was up there on business for a few days...

All the women were taken and he and I were standing out, so I offered to dance with him... His reaction was - can't remember his words , but I can remember his shock and the look he gave me!!!

My thoughts at the time were "how on earth do you teach effectively if you cannot do both the male and female parts of the dance?".

I do remember being told very firmly.... "we don't do that sort of thing in Manchester!"

[djtrev]

There are so many posts saying what a good follower Jamie is.If you look at the Youtube videos that Lee refers to,it is plain to see why in the Lee/Jamie video.Disregarding the fact that we all know who is leading,which one LOOKS as if he is the follower.Now compare that with Onka/DTS.I know they will say it was a bit of fun but IMO it looks gross.

[dave the scaffolder]

Your entitled to your opinion mate.

At the end of the day if you are not comfortable with it, then the answer is easy do not dance with other men.

As lots of men dance with other men I cant see a problem with it myself.

DTS Dave XXX XX

[Twirly]

Firstly, to djtrev for speaking up, even if I don’t quite understand where you’re coming from. Adds another dimension to the discussion which can help everyone else understand why some people have a problem with this.

You say you have a problem with the male-male dancing thing – does this mean that not only do you not want to dance with a man yourself, but that you find it offensive to watch other men dancing together? Would you want to see it restricted?

I see why some men would be offended if asked to dance by a man and for this reason I never ask men who I don't know.

My point was that if a bloke is co-erced into going dancing, hears the whole "generally don't refuse a dance blah, blah, blah' thing and sees men dancing with men IF they were unsure about dancing (having been dragged along by their partner, for example) and then thought there was a chance that a bloke might ask them to dance and that they would be breaking the code if they refused, it might put them off going back.

I'm not saying I like this thinking I'm just throwing it out there as a possible reason that some venues might try to put people off dancing with the same gender during classes. Most people who go to freestyles, however, are quite used to and comfortable with dancing and therefore hopefully would be more open to the idea dancing with someone of the same gender.

Good point. However, the men dancing with men at normal venue nights, as opposed to freestyles and weekenders is rare. And as Jamie says, he only asks men he already knows. I’ve only seen it very rarely at my regular venues – most frequently at Greenwich for some reason. It is true that the newbies won’t know this, but I doubt that they’re going to see it that often anyway.

It makes me wonder how useful the “always accept the offer of a dance” philosophy is. I’ve seen it discussed on various threads in here about different subjects, and it does present certain issues.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I wouldn't agree that just because it's accepted for women doesn't mean it would be with men. Some men might have been coerced into going dancing; still stuck with the male prejudice that it's not a "manly" activity and then have that re-enforced by seeing guys dance together during the evening.

The biggest problem for me is that some men follow very badly indeed and more than that, some follow and try to play it for laughs - this can often be cringeworthy. In my experience of male/male dancing - for every Jamie, there are several male follows who are doing it for a laugh, or bravado, and are barely "dancing" at all. The reason to dance should be - you want to enjoy moving about to a song with a partner. I've seen Jamie dance as a follow, the fact that he's male is not something that seems important when you watch. That goes for many others, both Gay and Straight. Its all about the dance.

[robd]

The biggest problem for me is that some men follow very badly indeed and more than that, some follow and try to play it for laughs - this can often be cringeworthy. In my experience of male/male dancing - for every Jamie, there are several male follows who are doing it for a laugh, or bravado, and are barely "dancing" at all.

I agree with this with the proviso that it really doesn't matter if it's cringeworthy or not assuming that those men dancing together are not impairing the ability (via dodgy floorcraft, say) of others to enjoy their own dancing. It's a social scene mainly - if someone wants to look like a fool then why not let them?

[dave the scaffolder]

This has turned into a good debate.

Now as most of know I enjoy dancing with other men, as a lead or a follow I have absolutely no phobias about dancing with most people, the exception is , normally women, who have hurt me with vice like grips, or throwing themselves into a drop like a lunnatic.

In my experience men who can lead or follow are much more relaxed in their dancing and generally very good dancers.

I am sure djtrev is not alone in his valid opinion, however if someone finds it gross or offensive then dont get involved and turn away.

djtrev introduce yourself to me at Southport and I will gladly buy you a pint or two, a difference of opinion does not mean we cannot get on with each other.

I for one will still dance with men and women in a camp and flambouyant manner which I enjoy, it takes all types to keep the world turning.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[jive-vee]

One of the highlights for me at this yr's Blackpool comp was seeing Tom and Alex compete in the Masters. I thought their dancing was fab and it didn't matter that it was a male/male partnership (admittedly that may have been why it caught the attention of some who were unused to seeing blokes dance togeher) the reason that they grabbed my attention was the style and musicality was fantastic IMHO They were also the one couple in my mind whose dancing really reflected the track they were dancing too - all couples were fab and of a similar standard when dancing to the first track but Tom and Alex really mastered the funkier track and stood out for me.

[dave the scaffolder]

Tiger Pants and The Librarian were outstanding at Blackpool and are superb dancers, I look forward to many dances at Southport.

Magic Hands is another male dancer who is superb at leading me.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[jive-vee]

Tiger Pants and The Librarian were outstanding at Blackpool and are superb dancers, I look forward to many dances at Southport.

Magic Hands is another male dancer who is superb at leading me.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

I don't think I know any of those forumites but I think they may be another couple that I've watched dance at Southport and thought looked fab dancers.

Another viewpoint to throw out is that sometimes if I'm dancing with someone who I've seen dance with both blokes and women (and who look like they are going for it and just playing with the music/song) then that can sometimes make me feel more comfortable dancing with them. I am quite comfortable doing close/bluesier moves with quite a few people now but sometimes (often with new dancers to me or sometimes people doing closer moves that don't quite match the song which is another matter) I feel a little bit uncomfortable and start to doubt whether they are just interpreting the song If, however, I've watched someone and they dance in a similar fashion with both male and female partners then it gives me more confidence that they are just really going with the music and nothing will be misinterpreted on either side... I know what I'm trying to say but whether this makes any sense to anyone else who knows (I'm answering as a female by the way )

[Steven666]

sometimes people doing closer moves that don't quite match the song which is another matter

Like Candyman or that Bob Dylan one. I've seen it. Now that disburbs me to watch.

[dave the scaffolder]

I had a couple of superb dances with Martin Harper at Southport, the last dance was in the main hall and it was excellent.

After the dance when I was catching my breath back a guy bounded up to me and introduced himself and asked me to dance.

he threw me around like i weighed 2 stone and we had a very good dance..His name was Steven666.

I now expect we will dance at Southport many more times again.

Wes of Southport fame led me in a dance at Bedford a while back and I enjoyed every second of it.


IT IS JUST A DANCE.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[killingtime]

Like Candyman...

Candyman has that bit in the middle that just keeps the main drum (I can't describe the bit very well). I might well move to a close hold to catch my breath ready for the next leg .

[jive-vee]

Candyman has that bit in the middle that just keeps the main drum (I can't describe the bit very well). I might well move to a close hold to catch my breath ready for the next leg .

hehe, yeah close holds can work in fast songs. That wasn't quite what I meant with my previous post - I meant where you're pulled in for a sway/basket/close hold whatever and kept there and made to feel uncomfortable (physically and emotionally) and it doesn't seem like you're dancing. But this is kinda off thread now so I'll shush myself.

[killingtime]

I meant where you're pulled in for a sway/basket/close hold whatever and kept there and made to feel uncomfortable (physically and emotionally) and it doesn't seem like you're dancing.

I get what you mean.

But this is kinda off thread now so I'll shush myself.

Since when has being off-topic for a thread stopped us ?

[jive-vee]

I get what you mean.



Since when has being off-topic for a thread stopped us ?

Maybe I'll start a new trend...

[Dreadful Scathe]

I agree with this with the proviso that it really doesn't matter if it's cringeworthy or not assuming that those men dancing together are not impairing the ability (via dodgy floorcraft, say) of others to enjoy their own dancing. It's a social scene mainly - if someone wants to look like a fool then why not let them?

very true, but i was posting in response to the point of the thread on people not wanting to see male/male dancing - bad dancing would put anyone off