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Thread: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

  1. #21
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Ah, but, Dave - before you learnt to dance, would you have beaten & killed a girl? No matter how bad a boy you were, having met you, I suspect that you wouldn't have been capable of that.
    Alcohol makes everything acceptable. I don't drink because if I did, I would become a lot less inhibited and would behave in truly horrible ways, probably involving violence at some point. If alcohol was discovered tomorrow it would be banned - it has absolutely no good effects on the human body or mind.

  2. #22
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Maybe? Sorry Twirly, but did you read my post?

    I gave solid examples of how the approach has failed, using the very example that prompted Easily Led to start this thread.
    Perhaps if you could gave some examples of how it has actually worked, it would help me understand the opposite view.

    Could you tell me how "a subtle change" would have helped in the example given?
    I was actually agreeing with you with regards to these particular youths. It was too late for them - any intervention that could have had an impact on these events would have had to take place when they were much younger. However by learning from what has happened might mean that we can reduce the frequency and severity of further such attacks.

    Although I know that I’ve read stuff in the papers about attempts to reduce juvenile crime by providing what I termed “distractions” (i.e. activities to get kids off the streets, get them involved in something and thereby have them develop social skills and bond within a group and therefore be less likely to partake in anti-social behaviour), I don’t have any specific sources as I don’t work in this sort of area. So I googled “prevention of juvenile crime” and came up with a Home Office report which, although I only skimmed it (due to time constraints), does seem to bear out some of what EL and I are suggesting. The study focussed on car crime, shoplifting and burglary, not including assaults, however if we are talking about a culture of anti-social behaviour in which all these activities play a part, I see no reason why you couldn’t extrapolate. Much of the anti-social behaviour was done to gain peer respect. Here are some passages (my emphases):

    Shoplifting (occurred mainly on Saturdays)
    Apart from a small number of juveniles from both Greater Manchester and Kirklees who said they played organised sport, the remainder seemed to have little else to interest them on this day. There is therefore scope for the multi-agency groups to develop activities capable of diverting local juveniles from the major shopping centres on Saturdays. Both boys and girls should be catered for and the activities must account for the need for status, excitement and the need to simply meet together, particularly among those in the 13 – 15 age group. The wide availability of Saturday morning cinemas once met this need, although a more sophisticated approach is probably necessary these days, and afternoons also need to be considered.

    Car crime
    The multi-agency group decided that measures to provide offenders with status and positive reinforcement of acceptable behaviour need to be carried out before they are drawn into this type of crime. The measures required need to be such as to encourage young people to “feel good” about themselves and, later, to be less likely to need the support the sub-group activity of car crime seems to offer. A small number of questionnaire respondents reported that they participated in the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme(7).

    Eliciting crime prevention measures from the juvenile crime profile
    Peer group pressure (including status seeking) emerged as a strong thread running through a wide range of the juvenile offending reported in this study. Confronting this issue directly however (eg. by trying to encourage greater independence in the young), is a difficult proposition. Nor is it clear that the effects of peer group pressure among groups of young people are wholly undesirable. There is, for example, an argument for trying to direct peer pressure to the social and individual good, as is perhaps the case within sports clubs, the pursuit of hobbies, helping elderly and disabled people or similar forms of constructive behaviour.
    What I meant by a subtle change was that small changes can have big effects. Thus if even a small proportion of young men in, I guess the 12-14 age group, or maybe younger, can be taught how to behave to the opposite sex (and each other) through dancing or any other activity, then their attitudes may ripple out through their peers. At the moment, it’s only the negative changes that are adopted by our society, hence the downward spiral in behaviour in both boys and girls.

    It is likely that there will always be a level of criminal and antisocial behaviour in the young (even the report I quote starts off accepting this). But we need to find some way to ameliorate this. Neither EL or I are suggesting that teaching kids to dance is “the answer”. There are many more important interventions, particularly in teaching parenting skills. But dancing with its need for physical prowess, and skill as well social interaction (I’m talking all types of dancing, not just partner dancing) could have a place.

  3. #23
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Recently Trouble and I watched a dance film with Antonio Bandares in it.

    This was based on a true story about Pierre cant member his surname, who took Ballroom dancing into inner city schools

    It was brilliant and this now has been taken up by a large number of schools in America.

    So personally I think dancing can and will civilise men of all ages.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    When i was younger i was smacked by a woman in our street for misbehaving.

    I ran home and told my dad, he then smacked me and said to me, "If she smacked you, you must have deserved it."

    In them days the whole street, village knew everybody, if anyone misbehaved an adult would discipline you and if your parents found out about it another smacking was in order.

    Try that nowdays and the parents will try to kill you.

    As for pack mentality a person involved in a mob or pack will do things he/she would not normally do because of the pack mentality.

    Let me explain. a decent law abiding person may peacefully demonstrate against the poll tax.

    When things turn nasty by a few nutters,a lot of people will join in due to pack mentality thinking, when it is all over the decent law abiding person will think, " What have I done?".

    Getting carried away is a human emotion we all have add drink to the equation and trouble is looming.

    Everyone has different tolerances for everything if a few people with a low tolerance for violence start violence and a few more drunk people join in it turns to a bag of snakes in no time.

    Drink is the curse of mankind, how many of us on this forum has done stupid things due to drink.

    I know i have, I have now given up the drink as it lowers my inhibitions and causes me to do stupid things.

    I as a grown man recognise this, youngsters do not have the maturity to deal with this so violence and aggrevation is the result.

    Ban all drink and drugs and the world will be a better place for it.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

  5. #25
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    i don't know about young men being less violent by the influences of dance but it certainly can change young girls.

    Where i used to live...prestwood near high wycombe in buckamingshire...it was considered cool if you beat someone up, got excluded, went down in prison...you gained respect

    i wasn't as bad as that but i wanted to fit in and i got in with the bad crowd..i started smoking, drinking, hanging out late at night with bunches of friends, being rude to teachers to gain respect and even bunk school...

    the truth is i was bored...Where i lived there was nothing to do and i mean NOTHING.

    We had a fish and chip shop. a post office, three pubs and a scruffy off licence...a lot of us were bored so we hung round street corners making raps up about our dreams.

    one of my raps/mc's was written by me when i was bunking school and it contained lyrics like mess with me rhi and trust me you will die...i was under the influence of other children...

    then i came to live with my dad and i discovered dancing! at first i didn't join in but gradually i began to meet new people and i didn't give it up...

    the amazing coincidence was two girls from my previous school who had also both been bad had started dancing in berko and chesham and they were no longer hanging round street corners...picking up strange boys and joyriding. they too enjoyed dancing and it was great to see!

    I still havent convinced my friends up in letchworth...although they're not asbo teenagers they do love getting drunk and going to a youth club in hitchin where constant fights break out...they ask me out and every time i give them the same answer...." No thanks im going dancing."

    My weekends have never been so entertaining and interesting!

  6. #26
    Registered User Daisy Chain's Avatar
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    I ran home and told my dad, he then smacked me and said to me, "If she smacked you, you must have deserved it."
    Oh, and bring back the cane at school.

    Daisy

    (A Well Behaved Little Flower)

  7. #27
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mini Mac View Post

    i wasn't as bad as that but i wanted to fit in and i got in with the bad crowd..i started smoking, drinking, hanging out late at night with bunches of friends, being rude to teachers to gain respect and even bunk school...
    English school kids work the longest hours in Europe and it's all tests,tests tests.
    When I was at school teachers would go off tangent and wax lyrical, but today they have to stick to the syllabus.
    Teachers are bored too, in fact they have complained to the government.


    the truth is i was bored...Where i lived there was nothing to do and i mean NOTHING.
    This is the main problem for Teens, there is nothing to do socially. They are not old enough to get in most places, even if they had the money.

    one of my raps/mc's was written by me when i was bunking school and it contained lyrics like mess with me rhi and trust me you will die...i was under the influence of other children...
    peer pressure is immense.
    then i came to live with my dad and i discovered dancing! at first i didn't join in but gradually i began to meet new people and i didn't give it up...

    the amazing coincidence was two girls from my previous school who had also both been bad had started dancing in berko and chesham and they were no longer hanging round street corners...picking up strange boys and joyriding. they too enjoyed dancing and it was great to see!
    I have 2 teenage boys. One of them does boxing so he can't smoke, drink, take drugs or eat junk food if he wants to do well in the ring.

    My weekends have never been so entertaining and interesting!
    If Teens can find something they really love doing, like Mini Mac has, that will keep them out of trouble.

    The government, after years of underfunding has finally started setting up sports schemes, but it is really prompted by the olympics.

    Oh, yes and there are a few girl gangs in London apparently.

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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Didn't anyone see "Madhot Ballroom"? The movie was released in 2005 -
    Mad Hot Ballroom Movie Reviews, Pictures - Rotten Tomatoes
    A great example how dancing can help keep kids on the straight and narrow when the culture around them isn't so great.

  9. #29
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I was actually agreeing with you with regards to these particular youths. It was too late for them - any intervention that could have had an impact on these events would have had to take place when they were much younger. However by learning from what has happened might mean that we can reduce the frequency and severity of further such attacks.
    In this particular case, I still don't think it would've helped - even if they were younger. I personally find this murder as distressing as poor Jamie Bulger's - because it involves the death of someone so completely helpless and innocent.

    I think Easily Led just chose the wrong example to start this thread off. The murder was committed by youths who clearly didn't have any sense of morality, and I personally think they could never have been changed. That's why I've been arguing so strongly - there's enough evidence to support my viewpoint in the links I've already posted, so I'll stop now.

    There were others in the group who called for an ambulance. They were the ones who realised that things had gone too far. These are the sort of kids that should be helped. These are the youths who can be helped. And OK, maybe the dancing idea might be a small part of it. But I fear there's a bigger need for an attitude change away from all the things that have already been highlighted on this thread, e.g. the acceptability of gangs, the lack of parental responsibility & role models, etc....

  10. #30
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    Re: Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

    Last year Channel 4 were involved with a project working with a group of teenagers who were in varying degrees of trouble at school, and from various difficult backgrounds. Ballet Changed My Life: Ballet Hoo!

    Channel 4 made a four-part series following the project which involved Birmingham Royal Ballet training this group of teenagers, and the teenagers also receiving specialist support for their problems. The teenagers were taught the disciplines of ballet and those who passed auditions towards the end of project were given parts in a production of the company's Romeo and Juliet.

    Obviously it was not all smooth going, but from what I recall this project had an amazing impact on many of the individuals involved, and their attitudes and behaviour changed as a result of the project.

    Whether these changes are down to the disciplines of dance itself, or whether that simply gave a framework for them to be valued and taught discipline etc is probably debateable...

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