Would learning to dance make young men less violent?

[Easily Led]

I expect this topic has been covered before but I was listening to news about how two boys aged around 15 and 16 kicked to death a young goth girl who was trying to protect her boyfriend from their attacks. Obviously boys have always fought each other and that is nothing new, however horrible, but when did it become acceptable to beat up and even kill girls for sport? It seems to me that this is another symptom of young men's lack of role models in society. If young men were taught to dance, especially partner dancing with a strong emphasis on etiquette would this make them more empathetic? I was thinking this because isn't what all men want some kind of respect for their prowess in whatever field? It is a constant source of amazement to me that men are able to pick up, lead, and remember dance moves as well as they do (I say this as someone who after 2 and a half years still has trouble showing beginners how to lead simple moves - I could never be a taxi dancer!).

Last night I was dancing with a beginner who said something like :

"How manly am I - you know I am just making up these moves and you are following them!".

And I was (to the best of my ability). This reinforced my feeling that men find partner dancing a huge ego boost (when they start to feel reasonably confident) and the gender imbalance ensures that good men are never short of admirers. Women, unless they are competent leads themselves, or brave enough to hijack, are very much in the traditional role of doing what they are told. Also being in the hands of a master dancer can be a bit of a Mills and Boon swooning experience. Where else can men get this feeling of power without hurting someone? (Apart from other consensual activities of course!)

What do you think?

[Feelingpink]

It sounds like a nice idea. For it to work, it would need to:
- especially target particular cultures of society where fathers/male role models are not perhaps around as much as they could be
- be as 'instant' as possible (think of Pop Idol kind of 'overnight' success)
- have role models within dancing who they can look up to - so probably within their culture, youngish & being cool (rather than geeky or unfashionable)
- perhaps even 'niche' youth events with different music
- very carefully chosen teachers - for instance, can imagine Dan Baines working better than others

However, having talked recently with a client who is fairly senior within the Met & very concerned about youth violence, it seems that your big competition would be gangs. Apparently, in some areas, even if you don't really want to belong to one, it's better to do so because it's easier to be the enemy of one gang rather than two. They are trying to work with youth & role models such as footballers (where they've had to work really hard & consistently to get where they are), but it's a long hard slog - and only so many guys are going to grow up to be premiership footballers - that's where your idea of dancing might have more success - more guys could dance.

[Easily Led]

Exactly - and young men could see that violence and every man for himself isn't the only way to success which it seems to be in both sport and industry (Alan Sugar etc.). I agree that teachers and dances would have to be carefully selected and targeted at specific audiences - I'm not sure it would deal with the gang problems although it might lead to a different kind of competitive engagement. Although it could also provoke more antagonism I suppose - murder on the dance floor? I was thinking of it being another way for young men to engage with unfamiliar young women without it being directly sexual or violent.

[johnnyman]

In all fairness, there are far more complex concerns, particularly in the climate socially today. Having been bullied at school, which was a mark on my confidence and assertiveness, the sort of individuals who were capable of that were the same sort of people who would probably mock me today for learning to dance.

best
johnnyman

[Easily Led]

Might those same bullies also be a little impressed by your skills with the ladies and your multiple spins? I think you would have to start with very young children before the serious, organized bullying set in.

Are there any former "bad boys" on the forum who have been "tamed" by dancing?

[martingold]

I expect this topic has been covered before but I was listening to news about how two boys aged around 15 and 16 kicked to death a young goth girl who was trying to protect her boyfriend from their attacks. Obviously boys have always fought each other and that is nothing new, however horrible, but when did it become acceptable to beat up and even kill girls for sport? It seems to me that this is another symptom of young men's lack of role models in society. If young men were taught to dance, especially partner dancing with a strong emphasis on etiquette would this make them more empathetic? I was thinking this because isn't what all men want some kind of respect for their prowess in whatever field?

What do you think?

In answer to your question no i dont think it would help

Firstly we need to teach parents that they have some responsibility for what their children get up to
Second we have to allow schools to discipline children without fear of reprisal from the parents (or pupils)
then we have to allow the police to do their job instead of sitting in offices working on realms of paperwork because they told someone not to drop litter
Lastly we need a justice system that is seen to be just to the victims of crime not to the perpetrators

[DundeeDancer]

Hi Easily Led,

It's a nice idea you have but I feel the problem is deeper one of a small percentage of youth today have no respect for themselves or others. They need some discipline not dancing.

Maybe for the majority of the youth there could be teenage Ceroc parties, that might work if properly managed. I guess it would take a lot of organising with lots of adult helpers to make sure events run smoothly though. The economic model might not work for a private organisation but still we shouldn't dismiss it.

Regards, DD.

[Lou]

In answer to your question no i dont think it would help

Firstly we need to teach parents that they have some responsibility for what their children get up to
Second we have to allow schools to discipline children without fear of reprisal from the parents (or pupils)
then we have to allow the police to do their job instead of sitting in offices working on realms of paperwork because they told someone not to drop litter
Lastly we need a justice system that is seen to be just to the victims of crime not to the perpetrators

I totally agree with Martin. It would not have helped in Easily Led's example of Sophie Lancaster.

Martin's comment about parental responsibility is spot on. This was obvious during the trial, where the mother of Brendan Harris was even laughing with him in the courtroom.

Sophie Lancaster | Beaten to death | For looking like Goth | Mum's plea for peace | The Sun |HomePage|News|Sun Justice

He said of the thugs: “Their behaviour that night was that they were doing what they wanted with their parents doing nothing about it or not knowing about it.

“There was a total lack of parental control.”

He continued angrily: “I am very critical of some of the parents involved. I really don’t think they have taken completely seriously how repulsive this incident was.”

The cop told how Harris was “laughing and joking” with his mother as police quizzed him.

These were two evil thugs, beyond redemption. They'd previously been convicted of injuring another youth and had both received community service. This was, predictably, ineffective.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/mar/28/ukcrime:

It emerged after the verdict that Harris, who admitted starting the frenzied attack because he was "drunk and showing off", had been convicted of kicking and stamping on a 16-year-old youth in April last year. He and Herbert, who was also involved, were given six-month community sentences.

The authorities even tried a softer approach. Ryan Herbert was involved in a "Youth Project" to produce a rap video to promote their home town.

Killers had assault convictions - News - Manchester Evening News

Herbert, dressed in a black hooded top, is also seen confidently swaggering down a street and crossing a road.

He does not sing on his own but only forms part of the chorus - the "Bacup Crew".

In a section sung by one of the other youths, a boy raps: "Enough men die in this town/You mess with GBH you go down."

The video was put together as part of a youth project and was uploaded on to internet video-sharing sites but has since been taken down.

There is no way on Earth that teaching these kids dance would've prevented this tragedy. It's completely naive and unrealistic to think otherwise. Presumably, the intent of the video project was to instill pride & respect into the youths. It didn't work.

How on earth could you think that teaching them to dance instead could've saved Sophie's life?

[Twirly]

Maybe teaching these boys who have committed such atrocities to dance wouldn't have made any difference and they would still have committed their crimes.

However, would teaching boys in general to dance, contribute to a change in culture? Dance can’t fix the worst aspects overnight, and it can’t be the only thing that will lead to change. There will be many parts to the jigsaw (teaching parents how to be parents, getting schools to instil some values in the kids, etc.) But clearly something needs to be done, and dance could be part of that.

Various schemes have been tried over the decades to distract youth (mostly male youth, but these days I fear female youth too) from anti-social behaviour. From the Boy Scouts though to using footballers, and access to musical training and opportunities. Some work, if only for a time. Dance could be one of these. And if distracts a few louts, then it would be worth it.

Easily Led has a point in terms of teaching etiquette and respect. Most girls/women like boys/men who can dance, and most boys/men want to have the opposite sex find them attractive, so there you have a hook. The downside, as johnnyman says is that the worst thugs will just take the p out of those who want to dance. However we’ve recently had several sports stars showing on Strictly Come Dancing, etc. just how hard it Get them touring schools, do webcasts with them, let the kids put questions to them.

Even if it only helps to create a subtle change, it would be worth it. It may not stop violence and thuggery, but maybe there will be a little less.

[martingold]

Maybe teaching these boys who have committed such atrocities to dance wouldn't have made any difference and they would still have committed their crimes.

However, would teaching boys in general to dance, contribute to a change in culture? Dance can’t fix the worst aspects overnight, and it can’t be the only thing that will lead to change. There will be many parts to the jigsaw (teaching parents how to be parents, getting schools to instil some values in the kids, etc.) But clearly something needs to be done, and dance could be part of that.

The problem is with the current politicaly correct system that we live in you cant teach these sort of children anything as they have grown up with absolutely no respect for other peoples feelings or property because they know that the law will be on their side if anyone were to step in and try to show them that what they are doing is wrong

Various schemes have been tried over the decades to distract youth (mostly male youth, but these days I fear female youth too) from anti-social behaviour. From the Boy Scouts though to using footballers, and access to musical training and opportunities. Some work, if only for a time. Dance could be one of these. And if distracts a few louts, then it would be worth it.

They do not need schemes to distract them they need discipline and structure in their lives rather than namby pamby attitude of "oh they are only children they will grow out of it"

Easily Led has a point in terms of teaching etiquette and respect.

Respect is, should and can only be taught by their parents a long long time before they are old enough to be thinking about girls and dance

[Easily Led]

I think Twirly has made my point very well - I do not expect that in this case these boys learning to dance would have necessarily prevented this happening. However, are you saying these boys were born evil or had just not been shown good role models? All I am suggesting is that young boys and girls are not generally shown good ways to interact physically together and to learn to treat each other with respect. When kids hang about on street corners with nothing better to do than drink it leads to actions that might not happen sober. Boys may often want to show off to girls or each other and wouldn't it be better to show off dancing skills than fighting "skills"?

Ok, I am a romantic who would like to live in a nicer world but I don't see that kids learning to dance with each other would make things worse.

[Lou]

Maybe teaching these boys who have committed such atrocities to dance wouldn't have made any difference and they would still have committed their crimes.

Maybe? Sorry Twirly, but did you read my post?

I gave solid examples of how the approach has failed, using the very example that prompted Easily Led to start this thread.
Perhaps if you could gave some examples of how it has actually worked, it would help me understand the opposite view.

Even if it only helps to create a subtle change, it would be worth it. It may not stop violence and thuggery, but maybe there will be a little less.

Could you tell me how "a subtle change" would have helped in the example given?

Ok, I am a romantic who would like to live in a nicer world but I don't see that kids learning to dance with each other would make things worse.

Ironically, the same was said about Sophie. She & Rob had earlier chatted with the gang of youths. they say actions speak louder than words - here's an example of someone actually trying to make the world a nicer place.

The haunting last picture of Sophie Lancaster who was beaten to death for being a Goth | the Daily Mail

Initially, they struck up a good-natured chat with a large group of teenagers and Miss Lancaster handed out cigarettes but suddenly a gang of five teenage boys turned on Mr Maltby, a university art student.

Sadly, her efforts were in vain. Why do you still persist in holding your viewpoint, given this example that you actually chose proves the opposite?

[martingold]

I think Twirly has made my point very well - I do not expect that in this case these boys learning to dance would have necessarily prevented this happening. However, are you saying these boys were born evil or had just not been shown good role models? All I am suggesting is that young boys and girls are not generally shown good ways to interact physically together and to learn to treat each other with respect. When kids hang about on street corners with nothing better to do than drink it leads to actions that might not happen sober. Boys may often want to show off to girls or each other and wouldn't it be better to show off dancing skills than fighting "skills"?

Ok, I am a romantic who would like to live in a nicer world but I don't see that kids learning to dance with each other would make things worse.

I agree with what you have said
1 when children (its not just boys) are young they need parental discipline and love (i dont mean strict disciplinarian parents but loving caring parents who teach their children the right boundaries and know where they are)
2 as they get older they need to be taught respect for others and themselves this should be done firstly by the parents then by the teachers who while the children are at school should have full backing of the law and parents to do this
3 they should be shown that if they do something that they shouldnt they will get punished by society not sent to a dance class
and lastly
4 the media should try to show them what is right with this world and not keep harping on about the bad

by the way of course teaching them to dance wont make things worse it is just that if you sugested it to these thugs then they and their parents would laugh at you

[Dreadful Scathe]

It is a constant source of amazement to me that men are able to pick up, lead, and remember dance moves as well as they do

Why thank you kind mistress

As for your idea - yes it would work, as would other social events, but from an early age and parental led. Its too late for many teenagers who have never had a decent upbringing - i do say "many" though, sometimes people do better themselves.

[dave the scaffolder]

Easily Led has a valid point I am an ex bad boy who was turned off the course of drinking and fighting by dancing.

I got into dancing by one of my roofer clients who saw the way I was going after splitting up with a long term partner.

Dancing has civilised me and continues to do so every day.

It has taught me respect and how to cherish women.

We all do things badly and make mistakes but dancing makes a man out of the dancer as there are rules to be followed.

Dancing may not be the answer to this countries social problems, but it can be a usefull tool in the box to counter this terrible mess this country is in in terms of violence and disrespect.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

[Gadget]

There is a lot of dancing for 'kids' - most of it is hip-hop or other funky "solo" styles, and they do have "dance-offs" rather than face-offs. Look at the current 'youth' music videos: there is a lot of funky hip-hop routines and/or street running.

If you want to get young people involved in partner dancing, I think you have to start incoporating stuff like this into MJ. I would love to see a true MJ/hip-hop cross-over... the closest I have seen is Emma... pity she's emegrating

[Lou]

Dancing has civilised me and continues to do so every day.

It has taught me respect and how to cherish women.

We all do things badly and make mistakes but dancing makes a man out of the dancer as there are rules to be followed.

Ah, but, Dave - before you learnt to dance, would you have beaten & killed a girl? No matter how bad a boy you were, having met you, I suspect that you wouldn't have been capable of that.

And surely that's the point of this thread?

I expect this topic has been covered before but I was listening to news about how two boys aged around 15 and 16 kicked to death a young goth girl who was trying to protect her boyfriend from their attacks. Obviously boys have always fought each other and that is nothing new, however horrible, but when did it become acceptable to beat up and even kill girls for sport?

[Lory]

This clip of Cheryl Tweedy's Passion, is a good examle of how dance 'CAN' make a difference!

YouTube - The Passions Of... Girls Aloud cheryl part 4

[fletch]

Easily Led has a valid point I am an ex bad boy who was turned off the course of drinking and fighting by dancing.

I got into dancing by one of my roofer clients who saw the way I was going after splitting up with a long term partner.

Dancing has civilised me and continues to do so every day.

It has taught me respect and how to cherish women.

We all do things badly and make mistakes but dancing makes a man out of the dancer as there are rules to be followed.

Dancing may not be the answer to this countries social problems, but it can be a usefull tool in the box to counter this terrible mess this country is in in terms of violence and disrespect.

DTS Dave XXX XXX

I could have written this post myself.

I have learned there is more than one way of skinning a cat, and that in my old life you got respect for not letting anyone 'DISS YOU' there have been a number of occasions while i'v been dancing I sooooo wan'ted to just 'smack' someone but I havn't


This is the new me long my it continue.


Not drinking helps

[Easily Led]

I am sure that DTS was never that bad and I think there was a time when boys, no matter how violent with each other, would have drawn a line at beating up a girl.. It might be a result of women's liberation that boys think that everyone is equal and fair game but even the Kray brothers loved their mums and I don't think killing women was on their agenda (am I wrong?) It just seems to me that if parental role models fail it would be good for boys and young men to see men interacting with the opposite sex in a gentleman-like way. I still find that young men will open doors for me and are often even more charming than their elders on the dance floor but there isn't the opportunity for all boys to experience examples of this if their home life doesn't allow for it.

Positive activities for girls and boys like cubs, brownies etc are still segregated and not available anyway to a lot of urban children. Obviously home life is the most important factor but I like to think that if kids can find someone to look up to outside their immediate family it can help guide them in the right direction. The whole reason I started teaching was because I had a very secure and relatively well-off background (no ponies or foreign holidays but everyone had shoes and loads to eat) whilst I knew people in my village who had things tougher and i wanted to give something back. I have worked with a range of ages from pre-school to adults and i feel that young people can change - someone who is horrible at 14/15 can turn into a nicer person. A nasty adult will usually stay that way. However, like animals, people need a certain amount of training and dance does that.

In a pack/ gang there is a tendency to revert to the lowest common denominator and it sounds as if a least one of those involved is probably seriously disturbed but if in general social interaction was more courteous and less abrasive (I'm thinking Anne Robinson et al), then perhaps pack animals would think twice before getting stuck in?

I know I am getting way out of my depth here - this is what happens when I'm on holiday!