Shortage of Glasgow Males

[Stuart M]

May have been discussed before but Musselburgh really brought it home.

We seem to have a dearth of good male dancers in Glasgow. I know speaking to some of the ladies over here that it's a real problem. One of them said to me on Saturday that there were only about 4 guys she'd consider asking for a dance on Wednesdays at the GUU. Not that there's only 4 good male dancers, but several of the decent ones just seem to be stuck in their ways, and aren't prepared to step beyond the "comfort zone". Think we really need to look at attracting more men to the classes in the hope of finding some dedicated dancers. Otherwise some of the good ladies will drift away (through boredom ) ) and possibly even the good blokes as well (through exhaustion... ) In fact, these things may be happening already.

Personally, I've made an early New Year's resolution, to compete Intermediate next year as time and budget permits. It's both to improve my dancing and to keep the Glasgow flag flying (yeah, Sheena, I take the hint ). So I'm in the market for a (dance!) partner as of now... no, don't all rush...

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Stuart M
the good ladies will drift away (through boredom ) ) and possibly even the good blokes as well (through exhaustion... )

Exhaustion????

Rubbish. If the blokes are getting tired, they need to get fitter, work out more, drink more water, change their shirts a bit more often.

Come on guys, there's a breach to step into. Up to the mark, now, and shape up.

Chris

PS How about a busk? A bit long term, but think of it like recruiting trainee doctors. The health service will improve as a result - but it'll take time.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Stuart M

Personally, I've made an early New Year's resolution, to compete Intermediate next year as time and budget permits. It's both to improve my dancing and to keep the Glasgow flag flying (yeah, Sheena, I take the hint ). So I'm in the market for a (dance!) partner as of now... no, don't all rush...

Thank you Stuart for an absolutely fab dance on Saturday night - I'm sure there will be lots of ladies keen to be your partner - just a shame you're not from Dundee

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by ChrisA
PS How about a busk? A bit long term, but think of it like recruiting trainee doctors. The health service will improve as a result - but it'll take time.

Do busks work in attracting males to dancing? Being a reticent West of Scotland male most of the time myself :sorry , I know how I'd have reacted to seeing a busk - and it wouldn't have encouraged me to come along (I'm glad I never did see a busk before I started!). There's a huge "cringe factor" to overcome for a bloke, and seeing a bunch of people out on the street doing something "weird" doesn't overcome that IMHO.

Personally, I think busks are much more useful in attracting women than men.

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Sheena
Thank you Stuart for an absolutely fab dance on Saturday night - I'm sure there will be lots of ladies keen to be your partner - just a shame you're not from Dundee

Maybe I should move and it'll rub off on me...c'mon, what's the secret?

Jam?

Reading The Broons every Sunday?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Do busks work in attracting males to dancing?

I don't know - except that there were hordes of new people, men and women, at Hipsters following the previous weekend's busk.

There's now a real risk that Wednesday's will start getting crowded like Tuesdays

Chris

[Forte]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Do busks work in attracting males to dancing? Being a reticent West of Scotland male most of the time myself :sorry , I know how I'd have reacted to seeing a busk - and it wouldn't have encouraged me to come along (I'm glad I never did see a busk before I started!). There's a huge "cringe factor" to overcome for a bloke, and seeing a bunch of people out on the street doing something "weird" doesn't overcome that IMHO.

Personally, I think busks are much more useful in attracting women than men.

If you wore those flashing cufflinks you wore on Saturday night you'd attract all sorts!!

[Dave Hancock]

I would totally agree that there is a real dearth of Glasgow male talent and I think that the problem may get worse before it get's better. IMHO there are a couple of main reasons for this:-

a) Lack of really good male dancers to inspire other less advanced dancers.

With the exception of Brady (who himself has come on heaps this year) over the past couple of years there have been a lack of role models. I was personally very lucky when initially started out that I had one or two males whom I could watch every week in Bill and Franck that I could get inspired by and I'd still attribute my liking of the slower songs and a lot of my style to Bill - thank you.

This problem in Glasgow is starting to sort itself out a bit, with Steve demo'ing on a Monday and myself helping out a bit on a Wednesday, along with Brady still coming along. (I would like to add that I'm nowhere near as good as the other two but I do have a fairly distinctive style which differs from Steve and Brady) which some folk seem to quite like.

b) Only one half decent night a week.

The Monday night class in Glasgow is in my opinion a bit of a shambles. It is situated in a poor area, with no parking, no drinks facilities and in a hall with poor sound quality. The numbers at this venue are disappointing and there is a lack of good dancers who attend. I have only visited this venue once as it was so poor that I have decided to go elsewhere to dance on a Monday night as I was very unimpressed with this venue (I'm aware that this venue has been touched upon another thread).

I would also say that I am very grateful to Ceroc for introducing me to modern Jive and I feel a loyalty to them, but as the venue stands on a Monday, there is no chance I shall return there in it's present format. I don't seem to be the only person who seems to think this way either as I tend to see quite a few Cerocer's at the other venue I go to on a Monday.

To improve with any good rate, dancers generally need to dance more often than once a week in a good quality atmosphere.

c) Variety of music.

My current gripe in Glasgow. (I'd admit that I do tend to like to have a moan from time to time re. music). I'd start by saying that the only Monday I went to I enjoyed the music and I'm sure if I went to the Monday I would enjoy the music still as am quite taken with the DJ's musical tastes.

However on a Wednesday the music is in my opinion very bland, with little if any variety. It has been commented and discussed that you can virtually guess the playlist before you go and there is little if any of the current Jive favourites which are played at this venue with far safer sets packed full of regular beat tracks being played. While such music is good for the freestyle between the beginners and intermediate classes and for a short period after the intermediate class it shouldn't be played all night.

There is very little music to 'play with' which can lead to a bit of monotony and it certainly wouldn't inspire the best of the dancers who may get a bit bored with the selection. It also means that up and coming dancers never get to hear the sort of songs which they'll come across in competition's and very little chance to pick up any musicality in their dancing as they continually dance to the 'same' music.

d) Taxi dancers.

My opinions on Glasgow taxi dancers is well known and have been posted on a seperate thread for anyone intersted.


However it is not all doom and gloom. While I can only speak for the last 3 months since I've been in Glasgow I think there has been a gradual improvement in standards. Venues and cities tend to have wee cycles when they have lots of new enthusiastic dancers joining and improving and also downturns when things aren't really going anywhere. I believe that Glasgow is presently on an upturn.

This is partly attributable to a couple of very good workshops held in Glasgow recently with Franck organising Nicky Haslem a short while ago and a rival mob taking Joseph and Trish up here a couple of weeks ago. Such workshops can only help inspire and improve the male dancers of Glasgow.

Also, Ceroc Glasgow have 2 very good teachers who are enthusiastic and are presently teaching some very good classes.

Think this just about sums up my views on Glasgow dancers, some of it being totally relevant to the male dancers and some of it is more general. I would also add that there are some fantastic female dancers in Glasgow and hopefully dancing with such talent shall help bring on the talent. In addition to the fabby teachers we also have established females such as Janet, Wendy & Frances who attend regualarly as well as a number of really good emerging dancers such as Nicky, Nicola, Maggy (who was in Alley Cats) among others coming through which shall also help improve the overall talent of modern Jive dancers in Glasgow.

[Brady]

Originally posted by Stuart M
We seem to have a dearth of good male dancers in Glasgow. I know speaking to some of the ladies over here that it's a real problem. One of them said to me on Saturday that there were only about 4 guys she'd consider asking for a dance on Wednesdays at the GUU. Not that there's only 4 good male dancers, but several of the decent ones just seem to be stuck in their ways, and aren't prepared to step beyond the "comfort zone". Think we really need to look at attracting more men to the classes in the hope of finding some dedicated dancers. Otherwise some of the good ladies will drift away (through boredom ) ) and possibly even the good blokes as well (through exhaustion... ) In fact, these things may be happening already.

Interesting that you mention this Stuart, as I've heard the same thing from several of the Glasgow women lately. So, what is the reason that Glasgow is different from elsewhere? The GUU venue tends to have quite a high turnover rate, so does that keep the standard low? Are the classes not challenging enough? Perhaps the men don't have the desire to get any better? Should the classes incorporate more ideas to use in dancing rather than just move after move (of which most don't remember half of)?

Personally, I have found this issue to be killing the buzz that a night could potentially have. When a night is buzzing it is usually because there is just the right distribution of experience to keep everybody going and on a high for the entire night. Without this, the night can drag for some (usually the more experienced women), as the GUU has started to do the past couple weeks. If they get depressed and stop coming, then the experienced men go through the same thing, and eventually, it brings the standard of the night down. So, what's the solution to save the night?

Brady

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Brady
Are the classes not challenging enough? .... Should the classes incorporate more ideas to use in dancing rather than just move after move

Think this is a chicken and egg thing, if the guys aren't very good then you have to tailor the classes as such, otherwise your classes run on for hours.

Agree with your second point entirely, although this is a problem at all ceroc classes I've been to in Scotland. Have sometimes noticed that some other venues just do 3 moves instead of 4 for the intermediate class which does allow the teacher a bit more time to try and add a bit of style to it.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Brady
Personally, I have found this issue to be killing the buzz that a night could potentially have. When a night is buzzing it is usually because there is just the right distribution of experience to keep everybody going and on a high for the entire night. Without this, the night can drag for some (usually the more experienced women), as the GUU has started to do the past couple weeks. If they get depressed and stop coming, then the experienced men go through the same thing, and eventually, it brings the standard of the night down.

I agree. The week before jivemasters the Wednesday class really was buzzing, and as far as I recall there were only about 2 or 3 extra "good" male dancers there, but that was enough to give the right experience distribution Brady mentions. On Mondays at the moment it's completely dominated by beginners, with a few improvers/intermediates, and only two or three experienced dancers of either sex (if you don't count crew).

Thinking about it, it's not as if there are loads of good male dancers who have stopped going to Glasgow recently (Roy is the only one I can think of). I suspect the problem is more that there aren't enough emerging intermediates (compared to the number of good females). Since it's inevitable that some people will drift off for various reasons, maybe the key is in trying to encourage more people with "potential" to attend workshops, think about the competitions etc. As we boys never talk to each other, I guess it will need to be the women who lead this activity. So perhaps Stuart should go back to his "source" and tell her it's all her own fault!!!

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock:
Lack of really good male dancers to inspire other less advanced dancers...This problem in Glasgow is starting to sort itself out a bit, with Steve demo'ing on a Monday

The Monday night class in Glasgow is in my opinion a bit of a shambles. It is situated in a poor area, with no parking, no drinks facilities and in a hall with poor sound quality. The numbers at this venue are disappointing and there is a lack of good dancers who attend. I have only visited this venue once as it was so poor that I have decided to go elsewhere to dance on a Monday night as I was very unimpressed with this venue (I'm aware that this venue has been touched upon another thread).

I'm afraid that it doesn't look like I'll be demoing in Glasgow - at least not on a regular basis. I was only covering for the last 3 weeks, and I don't know who'll be demoing (or the DJ) tonight. Have a feeling it'll probably be Franck himself.

The class night in Glasgow on a Monday (IMHO) has potential, although, I admit that it's not the best ceroc night that I've ever been to I don't know what the area is like since I'm not from there, and I have no idea how easy it is to get there on public transport. I quite like the hall though - the floor is good, there's plenty of space currently (which is great if you are wanting to practise), I have to say that I haven't noticed the sound quality being that poor, and being the DJ, I've had to pay attention to that aspect, and as for there being no drinks - well, as a non-drinker who can hence take free water to the venue, that hasn't bothered me at all - though, I do understand that other people do like a drink - especially usually the beginners, who aren't going to dance to every track.

I don't know where the other venue is, or what it's like, or what the standard of dancer is like there. But I think that if some more people gave the Maryhill class a chance, it wouldn't be that long before it had some atmosphere, and would be a decent night. I can honestly say that I've enjoyed the last 3 weeks of being there, and I'm sorry that I won't be going this week.

Steve

[Chicklet]

I haven't ben able to make it to Glasgow for a few weeks so perhaps my observations are out of date but for what it's worth -

Space - I often find Wed unpleasantly crowded - have been many times with every intention of dancing just about every track but have taken a bash, sat out a couple to rub something better and become a little demoralised ('ve got plenty of padding so I'm not talking about little knocks I'm talking about solid elbow bashes and full weight trodden on stuff).

I personally prefer a bit of space to move in and move into and I do flail my left hand and arm a bit more than some, but that's just the way I do it.

I know there's often more space near the door but try steering a lot of the Glasgow men into it!!!

Do we have another chicken and egg thing?? - my question is would a move to a bigger venue (thinking Woodside Hall) help rejuvinate the night, or would the West of Scotland males all congregate together so as not to look like they were "showing off" or "trying to be better than they ought"?

Would a fair dancer appreciate and experiment with extra space to try new more adventurous moves or styley things?? or is it just the better dancer who would actually use it to it's full?

NB this is THEORY, I KNOW there are availability and cost reasons why a bigger venue might not be practical, so please don't bring them up here.

I also know that the other Monday night venue that D speaks of is probably worse and I go there too when I can - I'm not saying this stops me going - I'm just saying that IMpersonalHO a move would add to my enjoyment - and asking if others feel the same.

Have also been to the Monday night at Maryhill a few times and really really WANTED to enjoy it (mostly as an alternative to the cramped conditions of the other place) but didn't, it just didn't work for me but again, would a move help?

Personally I think a move would help the Monday night as many might give it another go to see what it was like.

One last point, again in favour, in theory of the Woodside Hall with a high stage - In my experience the guys furthest away from the stage in the classes at the GUU don't always see the moves well enough, OK maybe they're not looking hard enough but it IS my experience that they don't get them as often or as quickly and a higher stage might help.

Interested to hear comments
C

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Space - I often find Wed unpleasantly crowded

I've never really found space to be an issue on a Wednesday night although that's perhaps as I like a lot of the UCP moves.

I think that the way you have had a few bashes tends to suggest a lack of floorcraft ability from the male leads which again is only something you learn with experience.

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I think that the way you have had a few bashes tends to suggest a lack of floorcraft ability from the male leads which again is only something you learn with experience.

could be - and I guess more likely to be learned out of necessity in a more crowded space, sigh, never an easy answer eh?

should I / we girls comment on it to the "offenders"??

I never have, when asked if OK after a bash have always smiled and said "of course" these things happen.

Maybe we need a band round our wrists that says "what would Heather do"

[Dave Hancock]

Originally posted by Chicklet
One last point, again in favour, in theory of the Woodside Hall with a high stage - In my experience the guys furthest away from the stage in the classes at the GUU don't always see the moves well enough, OK maybe they're not looking hard enough but it IS my experience that they don't get them as often or as quickly and a higher stage might help.

Slightly moving off-topic but this is a fairly interesting point re. where the class is taught, the best classes I think I've attended were in Auckland where the teacher and demo were on the floor among those in the class. This meant they were on the same level but it did mean that nobody was overly far away from the teachers at any one time as you can be when a stage is employed. This gave the teacher and their demo more of an opportunity to interact with the class and IMO they seemed to be more aware of whether the majority of the class were getting the moves or not.

Also remember Gus, Peter Phillips and Steve Lampert doing workshops on the same level as the class and these seemed to work well albeit with less numbers than a regular class night.

[TheTramp]

Yeah. It sort of works, provided the class isn't too big. Once the class gets to a point where it's too big for just one circle round the teachers, then it's harder for people to see, and the teachers should be on the stage.

I think that the other downside of being in the middle of the class, is that if all the guys round the circle are facing the same way, then half of the circle will be facing the other direction from the teacher. Which sometimes makes it harder to follow the moves - especially in things that are quite tricky.

The teacher should (and generally are I think) aware of how well the class are getting the moves. Although, sometimes, as a teacher, you have to just give up on a couple (or two), and move on, before the rest of the class lose the will to live.

On the bashing issue. I'd agree there is a general lack of floorcraft, although, sometimes accidents do happen. When you move your partner into a space, and someone else moves his partner into the same space, at the same time, then it's difficult to avoid. The thing that always annoys me though, is when I'm dancing on the same spot, and have been for several beats, and then someone crashes into me.

Steve

[Chicklet]

I meant it on topic as in, could this be a contributor to why some of the Glasgow guys who have been dancing for quite a while don't come on as quickly?

Completely agree it's not the height that particularly matters, just the ability to see properly what was being taught...but what you say also reminds me that in the smaller classes you mention the teachers were able to say "so and so" "try it this way maybe" etc so the teaching was a little more personal and detailed - now I guess this is at least partly a function of the fact that a lot of the the folk in the smaller classes knew each other before they got there and appreciated the attention as helpful pointers rather than embarrassing pointing out of deficiencies - so - NOW off topic, is there a Ceroc policy on the use of names from the stage or singling out of people, all in the interests of helping obviously?

just interested.

C

[Graham]

Originally posted by Chicklet
I meant it on topic as in, could this be a contributor to why some of the Glasgow guys who have been dancing for quite a while don't come on as quickly?

I personally don't think so. I'm pretty sure that any of the men that are considered to be good dancers didn't get that way solely through attending the intermediate class, so whether or not they were able to pick up every single move shouldn't have been too much of an issue.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Also remember Gus, Peter Phillips and Steve Lampert doing workshops on the same level as the class and these seemed to work well albeit with less numbers than a regular class night.

Hi, for obvious reasons I dont know what the Glasgow nights are like, but I think the problem is common everywhere.

There has been a thread on Brighton where the dancers were really good as a result of many factors.
You guys have this in Dundee - something is working well there - good dancers develop good dancers (the ladies are generally quicker than the men on this).
Glasgow has some great dancers who will set the standard for others to follow - I know I danced with the ladies and have seen Brady, Dave etc. dance.
At my venue we teach the beginners class in a circle (Salsa style) and my co-teacher rotates, that way we get to dance the routine with everyone. This helps me with new beginners.
Our intermediate class is not to complicated and then we often have a 15min advanced development class expanding on the intermediate moves - this helps guys with lead etc. it is a small group in this class while the rest are dancing - we are lucky with our venue (but I choose it for this purpose).
p