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Thread: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    but as a beginner I always get the blame
    Then your going to the wrong class there should be no blame
    The leads should take into account that you are a beginner but assuming that when things go wrong (or not according to plan)its because you are a beginner just goes to show how bad the leads you are dancing with are
    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    By definition, the majority of the men I am dancing with are more experienced than me, and therefore if I don't get something right then it can't be their lead, can it?
    time and experience means nothing we have at least one male lead who has been going to ceroc classes (i cant bring myself to say dancing) for at least 16years and still has got a clue about timing of the moves
    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    What really gets me feeling low is when a lead does a move on me I've never seen, I don't get it because I can't tell what they are trying to do, then they tell me it's my fault for not knowing the move.
    Again i would say your dancing with the wrong people no matter how long you have been dancing there will still be moves you dont know (there are over 600) you need to learn how to follow
    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    It's a frustrating part of beginnerdom, and I feel it would really help if teachers made leading properly a bit more of an upfront issue in the class. I get the impression that a lot of the men think that the point of teaching moves is for both the followers and the leads to learn, so that the follow knows the move and will do it correctly for the lead. From what I read on this forum, the moves are being taught to the lead so he can lead them, and the follow so she can recognise the lead - but not so she can predict what he is trying to do and do it for him no matter whether he does his bit right or not...or have I misunderstood?
    Absolutely correct

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    CARO! I believe this question was directed at you


    Well...

    I think my definitions may differ a little from others. Or rather, my definitions depend based on others.

    Generally speaking, both backleading (leading yourself into a move, either because you think you have recognised it or because the lead is poor) and sabotaging are not liked by leaders (unless you're swapping leads with a friend for a laugh). Semantically, both highjacking and sabotaging convey aggression - and I don't want anything in my dancing to be perceived as such.
    So, ideally, you'd want to be perceived as 'playing' only (which is usually seen anywhere on the scale from 'ok' to 'highly desirable').

    The key word (and the problem) here is perceived. Some guys will think that changing the timing (not the shape) of a move is sabotaging. For others it will only be when you change part of the shape of the move. Others will only feel sabotaged when you change completely the move, or actually lead them into something.

    So, in fact, ideally you'd have to adapt the amount and type of playing you do to the guy you are dancing with (and let's not start about how not to get this wrong ).


    As far as I am concerned, to be honest most of the time (or at least with leaders I am comfortable with) I don't analyse anything like that and I am just responding to the music and haven't got a clue what I am going to do in 2 or 4 beats time - that depends where I'll be led at the time. Also the more I am challenged in my following, the less likely I am to play big.

    The problem is there may be people you get too confortable with and you realise at the end of the dance that you might have been a tad of the heavy side of not following and they perceived the whole dance as one big sabotage...

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Also, after reading the various threads about leaders and followers in class, I’m a bit unclear now about what I should do in class when we are being taught new moves. If the man I’m standing with on the rotation hasn’t got a clue and I know what I should be doing, should I do it anyway, or should I just stand there because he isn’t leading it?
    IMO if you want to be helpful then there is a few things you can do to really help and make the leads night.

    Remember that Ceroc nights are fun nights, you are there to have fun so smile!

    Classes are intense , if you've never seen the move before then it's a big learning curve in getting the move anywhere near right. So give yourself and your partner a break and don't get frustrated if the move isn't working for you at that particular time.

    It's not a disaster if you don't keep in time with the rest of the class. Try and follow what your lead is leading and at there pace.

    In the rotation when a new partner comes and stands next to me I always start some form of dialogue, "How you doing?". If I'm finding the moves OK that will be it but normally I'll be saying something like "Hey how you doing? I'm not getting this third move very well but let's see how it goes". That way the follower knows when it comes to move three we will be stepping through it a bit more slowly.

    So it comes to the problem move that I would like to walk through it at snail pace to help me get it. There is normally a sticking point in there where I will just freeze and try to ponder what to do next, I would prefer it if the follow did nothing for about 2 seconds. Two seconds is a long time and if the follow does know what to next then they can say "it's this way" back lead move to the next step and pause.

    The rest of the move will hopefully then click in the leads mind and they will lead the rest of the move in some fashion.

    The above is near to the ideal of what I would like followers to do for me. Others on here will have there different approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    And if he leads me wrong, should I go with his lead, or not?
    Yes, you should go with it unless you think it's going to be painful, if you think that then try to escape the move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Once, in class, the teacher said "If the lead doesn't lead this, then followers, stand there until he does" and there were a lot of women who didn't move! Unfortunately, the teacher only said that the one time.
    Pause for 2 seconds, "this way" back lead, pause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I find once we get to freestyle some men expect me to get the taught move right even if their lead has been unclear, and if I don’t get it then they tell me it is my fault - obviously, because I’m a beginner so it’s always my fault!
    What really gets me feeling low is when a lead does a move on me I've never seen, I don't get it because I can't tell what they are trying to do, then they tell me it's my fault for not knowing the move. It's a frustrating part of beginnerdom, and I feel it would really help if teachers made leading properly a bit more of an upfront issue in the class. I get the impression that a lot of the men think that the point of teaching moves is for both the followers and the leads to learn, so that the follow knows the move and will do it correctly for the lead. From what I read on this forum, the moves are being taught to the lead so he can lead them, and the follow so she can recognise the lead - but not so she can predict what he is trying to do and do it for him no matter whether he does his bit right or not...or have I misunderstood? It's not that I'm not listening to what other people are saying about the follower having to be led properly for it to work, but out there on the dance floor, surely I have to do more than just be led well in order to get on and dance? I'm confused about this because I know I can get loads more moves right with good dancers, but I want to be able to get it right with other dancers too - is this a case of getting to understand particular men's signals and knowing their favourite moves so I become better at predicting what their leads mean, or is there something else I should be doing?With some men, it seems like I am constantly having to second guess what they are doing because their lead is more of a “waft”, or because the move we learnt in class could actually lead to any number of different moves, but could be presumed to be that particular one because that’s the one we just learnt…But if I correctly guess what my partner is trying to do and then I do it, isn’t that as much backleading as if I guess wrong about what he is trying to do and do something else by mistake?

    Hee hee that’s a lot of questions/confusion in there, that's why we talk and talk on this forum trying to figure these things out?

    From my viewpoint, other will have other viewpoints.

    I don't "expect" anything of the follower I just have a series of hopes they might have the following type skills that will help us to have a marvellous dance.
    Follower will be in a relaxed happy state of mind, will be up for dancing around to the beat of the music.
    Follower still in relaxed state of mind but will have a forum of tension running through there body and arms, slightly stiff to give a balanced reaction against the leads tension. Think on the bit of the yoyo when you come together elbow to elbow with your partner and you tense up your body to receive and use the energy to turn from the leads push to turn you around.

    We leads also hope the followers will recognise signals to prepare for something to happen, like flat palm to palm holds means the lead is away to push out, we hope you learn/recognise these little components of the moves but you don't need to know the whole move as explained in class.

    Saying that it is useful to get to know the beginners moves you'll learn them over time even if you try not to, the intermediate moves on the other hand, I don't think there is any point in a follower learning them as I know most leads normally adapt the moves to suit there own styles, put a pause in here or a different turn there.

    I tried following for the first time there on Wednesday, tried it in freestyle and I just did the things above and the dance worked fine, we did a range of moves I had no experience of and they worked just because I had a little inner tension and looked for the components and I just went with the flow. A few of the moves didn't quite work as my lead intended but I just giggled at myself for being a beginner and enjoyed the rest of the dance.

    Hope that makes some sense.

    DD
    Last edited by DundeeDancer; 28th-March-2008 at 01:44 PM.

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Classes are intense , if you've never seen the move before then it's a big learning curve in getting the move anywhere near right.
    Are they really? I never seem to have trouble. Not even with Viktors classes at Southport being ever reminded that I was the only one in the row who got it. Lots of moves are similar even if you don't know the specific move. Also, I find picturing and playing it through in your head helps wonders, though I only only usually have to remember the inital part of a move (2-3 beats) and then the rest just flows. Maybe I have a graphic visual memory?

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    The reaction from the leader might be:
    playing - , hijacking - , backleading -

    or it might be:
    playing - , hijacking - , backleading

    As a follower you don't know what reaction you will get until you do it, but you will probably pick the wrong option.

    In other words ladies - now you know how men feel off the dance floor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    The guy's who've responded on here, all seem 'very' happy but have you ever had a bad reaction, where you've sensed the guy's disapproval?
    I tried to play with a guy at a venue this week (there was a break and he did dance straight through it so i decided to break on the next break..)and he was not amused. He promptly stopped dancing, looked at me and said "I am leading".... After that he kinda fuelled me so I decided to hi-jack his basket by doing a little duck ... after which he made sure that I could not let go / hijack etc or have any choice in what he wanted to lead... Needless to say after the song ended we both went our separate ways and I don't think he will dance with me again. Discussed it with friends / teacher afterwards and we just decided that it was maybe not the right person to play with....

    His loss *run out of smilies so big grin*

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    ........I've also come across that thing when the leader stops and expects me to wiggle suggestively,

    ........ if I wanted to wiggle suggestively I would have been wiggling round the guy anyway - I don't need him to turn himself into a pole for me to dance round!
    Absolutely agree, if I hit a pause and pass control over to the lady (what I intend if I temporarily freeze) then I try and follow in kind and don't stand expectantly looking for the follow to 'show me they've got'. A wiggle often gets a wiggle back - sometimes a scary thought


    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    ....I think when I'm a better dancer then I may have more confidence to not do what the leader is not leading properly
    It sounds to me that when you're ready to take this step you'll do in a way that doesn't bruise our sensitive 'lead' egos

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    ....What really gets me feeling low is when a lead does a move on me I've never seen, I don't get it because I can't tell what they are trying to do, then they tell me it's my fault for not knowing the move.
    As martingold says, no blame should be attached and the lead certainly has no right to tell you off in freestyle for something not happening correctly.

    I believe that some leads do it with the best of intentions, without realising that it's a very fine line between helping and blowing your confidence - but some leads are simply selfish and insensitive. Sounds like you're able to reconcile the 'advice' properly but if it gets to the point where you find it destroying your freestlye time the a quiet word with the instructor might help - at our local venue we have been known to offer guidance to people that advice should never be offered in freestyle unless specifically asked for. If that doesn't work, then try other venues.

    I remember how bad I felt when I was first learning when one lady who arm wrestled her way round the room took almost a whole track to tell me where I was going wrong - lucky I'm thick skinned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    ....From what I read on this forum, the moves are being taught to the lead so he can lead them, and the follow so she can recognise the lead - but not so she can predict what he is trying to do and do it for him no matter whether he does his bit right or not...or have I misunderstood?
    Dead right - predictions have a habit of going wrong. Us leads are complicated creatures you know
    Last edited by Agente Secreto; 28th-March-2008 at 02:18 PM.

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Are they really? I never seem to have trouble. Not even with Viktors classes at Southport being ever reminded that I was the only one in the row who got it. ...snip.. Also, I find picturing and playing it through in your head helps wonders, though I only only usually have to remember the inital part of a move (2-3 beats) and then the rest just flows. Maybe I have a graphic visual memory?
    Woo hoo for you

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz View Post
    I tried to play with a guy at a venue this week (there was a break and he did dance straight through it so i decided to break on the next break..)and he was not amused. He promptly stopped dancing, looked at me and said "I am leading".... After that he kinda fuelled me so I decided to hi-jack his basket by doing a little duck ... after which he made sure that I could not let go / hijack etc or have any choice in what he wanted to lead... Needless to say after the song ended we both went our separate ways and I don't think he will dance with me again. Discussed it with friends / teacher afterwards and we just decided that it was maybe not the right person to play with....

    His loss *run out of smilies so big grin*
    Agree, it's the interaction that makes it fun. Funnily enough at one venue along the Thames Valley I had the same reaction from a lady who, when I wrapped her into a sway and paused, told me that she'd danced for 10 years on the beat and wasn't into that dirty dancing stuff - goodness knows what she'd have made of a lambada................

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Agree, it's the interaction that makes it fun. Funnily enough at one venue along the Thames Valley I had the same reaction from a lady who, when I wrapped her into a sway and paused, told me that she'd danced for 10 years on the beat and wasn't into that dirty dancing stuff - goodness knows what she'd have made of a lambada................

    You should tried some of Trouble's moves on her!

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caz View Post
    I tried to play with a guy at a venue this week
    I'm laughing here ... if anyone read this out of context


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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    The guy's who've responded on here, all seem 'very' happy but have you ever had a bad reaction, where you've sensed the guy's disapproval?
    not yet. But i dont play naughty with every tom dick or harry, only guys that know me and know im with DTS and know that its just dancing, well most of the time (i do admit to enjoying seeing the odd one blush).....

    I play normally too, you know the odd block the little jiggly moves or giving me a space to step into and the reaction is good. If im with a dancer that i dont know, i wait till they know me first really.

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Agree, it's the interaction that makes it fun. Funnily enough at one venue along the Thames Valley I had the same reaction from a lady who, when I wrapped her into a sway and paused, told me that she'd danced for 10 years on the beat and wasn't into that dirty dancing stuff - goodness knows what she'd have made of a lambada................

    LOL i would love to have seen that. Some people are stiff about these things tho. Either they dont understand it or feel threatened in some way, or its just not their cup of tea. You do have to be quite good at sussing people out... its quite good fun doing that alone. I also tend to people watch so i have a good idea before i even ask or get asked what that dancer is about.

    But overall, i know so many dancers now who know me anyway, its just fun all the way.

    Strangers are a challenge in general anyway, cause you gotta concentrate on their signs, moves and trying to give them a good follow, playing comes later

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Playing is all about the music and musicality - I can 'play' in a dance with a beginner (with a scared face)
    Personally, I would say that this is "Styling" rather than "Playing" - to me, playing is where I give the follower space and either admire, match, mirror or complement them.

    "Giving my follower space" does not mean stopping and expecting them to do something - my most common method just now is to gently lead them in a walk with the minimal of lead: if they choose to do something, I can pick up on it. If they don't, it's just a walk.

    The only time I stop leading something is when I am doing some playing Otherwise I will lighten my lead and give the follower more "opportunity" to hi-jack or do their own thing. The practice of stopping and expecting the follower to perform for you is not something I would inflict on any follower or advise anyone else to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    From what I read on this forum, the moves are being taught to the lead so he can lead them, and the follow so she can recognise the lead - but not so she can predict what he is trying to do and do it for him no matter whether he does his bit right or not...or have I misunderstood?
    you've got it spot on.

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Also, I find picturing and playing it through in your head helps wonders, though I only only usually have to remember the inital part of a move (2-3 beats) and then the rest just flows. Maybe I have a graphic visual memory?
    Two heads are better than one.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    ........Minnie M, sounds like someone new to play with, Southport? .............
    Oh yes..............(looking forward to meeting you), if we don't get to meet on Friday, see you at the Barbie


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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I find once we get to freestyle some men expect me to get the taught move right even if their lead has been unclear, and if I don’t get it then they tell me it is my fault - obviously, because I’m a beginner so it’s always my fault!
    Kinda rude. Oh well. The phrase you want is "what did I do wrong?". Like, what did the guy want you to do, and how was he attempting to communicate that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    It's not that I'm not listening to what other people are saying about the follower having to be led properly for it to work, but out there on the dance floor, surely I have to do more than just be led well in order to get on and dance?
    Well, yes. You need to follow well. Balance, frame, response, flexibility, amplification, and so forth.

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Are they really? I never seem to have trouble. Not even with Viktors classes at Southport being ever reminded that I was the only one in the row who got it. Lots of moves are similar even if you don't know the specific move. Also, I find picturing and playing it through in your head helps wonders, though I only only usually have to remember the inital part of a move (2-3 beats) and then the rest just flows. Maybe I have a graphic visual memory?
    Maybe you have just done loads of classes so you are used to it? (you did say that you used to go 7 times a week?)

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jhutch View Post
    Maybe you have just done loads of classes so you are used to it? (you did say that you used to go 7 times a week?)
    That's probably true.

    Down to 2/3 nights per week now but I used to do 7.

    But at the moment I find beginners classes harder as I have to stop myself from doing non routine moves. Probably because until the last few weeks, I hadn't done a beginners class in a while (due to a ballroom class elsewhere overlapping) so I'll put it down to that. Or I should actually concentrate!

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post


    As martingold says, no blame should be attached and the lead certainly has no right to tell you off in freestyle for something not happening correctly.
    What really annoys me is a man who insists on teaching you such a move right at the end of the track and continues into the beginning of the next track. He then abandons you and picks another follower for the rest of the track. You are left fuming as all the men have been snapped up and there is nobody to dance with. Happened to me this week and I missed dancing to Duffy

    Believe me, I AM NOT INTERESTED. If a move is not leadable, don't try it on a strange woman.

    GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

    Daisy

    (A Strangely Livid Wall Flower)

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    Re: What are the differences between "playing", "hijacking" and "backleading"?

    I too HAVE to dance to Duffy - or else!

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