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Thread: Producing a decent dance event video

  1. #1
    Omnipotent Moderatrix (LMC)
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    Having sat and watched the Blackpool video, it ocurred to me, that a lot of people were doing moves that, although they were quite flash, or complicated, didn't fit the music being played, or were not in time with the music.
    Hey....*no-one* is in time with the music on the Blackpool video!! I think it has more to do with the vid than the dancers to be honest...

  2. #2
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    Originally posted by Emma
    Hey....*no-one* is in time with the music on the Blackpool video!! I think it has more to do with the vid than the dancers to be honest...
    Sorry Em.....think you might be right on that score. Think maybe the music and dance are a bit out of sync....not the best standard of filming that I've seen

  3. #3
    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    Sorry Em.....think you might be right on that score. Think maybe the music and dance are a bit out of sync....not the best standard of filming that I've seen
    Apparantly the music was dubbed over after filmimg as there was a lot of background noise, we had same problem when I made my drops vid (the adjacent room had a wide screen football match on ) So we took a direct feed from the mixer into the video recorder and it worked ok, the same guy [Steve Strong -also a DJ at Camber/Bognor] makes the camber video [only the last 3 tho. - before that they were REALLY bad] and is hoping to get contract for Blackpool 2004. So any feedback to C2D team on video quality may help Steve get the contract.
    Peter

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    Apparantly the music was dubbed over after filmimg as there was a lot of background noise
    If you ever see the BBC filming, you will see just about as many people recording the sound as actually filming. It is very difficult, and expensive, to do properly.

    Taking a direct feed from the mixer is a good start, but has two problems. You lose a lot of the atmosphere, because you have none of the crowd noise. But the biggest problem is that the music has to be put back together with the video by a dancer to make sure it is in time. (And what do you do when a couple is out of time?)

    The fact that Steve Strong can dance would make him my choice for producing a dance video.

    David

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    If it were up to me I would approach film schools, or on a lower level, local video clubs, to see if they were interested in filming our events as a project, with suitable recompense for video used. It does require multiple cameramen to do the best dancers justice. Sound does require a direct feed, as well as ambient recording to get the atmosphere and reactions.

    I am not happy that competitors have no financial reward for video sales.

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    Originally posted by bigdjiver
    I am not happy that competitors have no financial reward for video sales.
    They do! The video sales subsidise the event - you could have higher entry fees if you really want, but why???

  7. #7
    The Oracle
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    Originally posted by bigdjiver
    I am not happy that competitors have no financial reward for video sales.
    If running competitions ever became hugely profitable, then there may be a move by the competitors to get something back. I can't see this happening for a long time. The reward at the moment is that it helps the competition to run again the following year.

    How would you split the money up anyway?


    Film schools / video clubs sound like a good idea though.

    David

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    If you ever see the BBC filming, you will see just about as many people recording the sound as actually filming. It is very difficult, and expensive, to do properly.
    It's extremely difficult to get good sound quality even in a studio - at a live event it's even harder, and I suspect if the BBC were doing something like Blackpool they might well have MORE people doing the sound than the vision (especially if they stuck to two cameras). The best approach is to record both a direct feed and an "atmosphere" mike (or better still several). But David is right - the key thing is in the editing, as you MUST use one master sound track on the final edited video, even though you're editing several camera feeds together. This means that all the video needs to be synched to the sound track. It isn't essential for this to be done by a dancer (as it's possible to use the sound track from each video feed to match) but the results are likely to be better, as they can actually get rid of any slight timing discrepancies on the original recordings at the same time.

  9. #9
    Originally posted by DavidB
    Taking a direct feed from the mixer is a good start, but has two problems. You lose a lot of the atmosphere, because you have none of the crowd noise.
    Agreed

    Originally posted by DavidB
    But the biggest problem is that the music has to be put back together with the video by a dancer to make sure it is in time. (And what do you do when a couple is out of time?)

    The fact that Steve Strong can dance would make him my choice for producing a dance video.

    David
    On our vid Steve took a direct feed from the mixer into the camcorder and bypassed the built in microphone.
    The crowd atmosphere could be recorded sepeartly but as we tend to get the vid's for the moves etc. Is the music being in sync more immportant than the atmosphere?

  10. #10
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    Agreed

    On our vid Steve took a direct feed from the mixer into the camcorder and bypassed the built in microphone.
    The crowd atmosphere could be recorded sepeartly but as we tend to get the vid's for the moves etc. Is the music being in sync more immportant than the atmosphere?

    In an ideal world (and not too costly) one would have a separate record machine (probably DAT) and a simple mixer to record more than one track. Then hire a couple of semi-pro video cameras (I can give anyone the name of a company) and lock the whole lot together with time code hence eliminating any sync problems. A video club would be a good place to try as they might have the editing facilities as well. Film schools tend to concentrate more on the science and aesthetics of film-making rather than videoing.
    Maybe a college video club might be interested? I still think Steve would be a good choice to mastermind the thing.

    Just my twopennyworth.

    M

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
    but as we tend to get the vid's for the moves etc. Is the music being in sync more immportant than the atmosphere?
    Not everyone buys the video for the same reason.

    There are (at least) two sorts of people who buy the video. The first is someone who wants a nice record of the day, and is reasonably well served by the style of the current video. The atmosphere is part of the event, so should be part of the video as well.

    The second is the more serious dancer who wants to see as much of the dancing as possible, and nothing else. This person would ideally like the footage from each camera, as it gives them more to watch. Some people might just collect moves, and might even watch things in slow motion without the sound. Others might be interested in how people interpret the music, and would obviously like the video to be in sync.

    Originally posted by Mary
    and lock the whole lot together with time code hence eliminating any sync problems.
    All DV cameras have a timecode, not just semi-pro cameras. But this does not necessarily eliminate sync problems. The sound becomes 1 frame out of sync for every 13m you move away from the speakers. In a hall as big as Blackpool this can start to be a problem, and you might have to adjust things slightly to look and sound right.

    Semi-pro cameras would have other advantages however, particularly better quality pictures, and the availability of wide-angle lenses.

    A video club would be a good place to try as they might have the editing facilities as well.
    Editing facilities are not a problem. A PC running Premiere (or - just for Franck - an Apple running Final Cut Pro) is more than capable of editing multiple camera angles and soundtracks. For me the big advantage of a video club would be experienced cameramen, who might be able to keep things focussed!

  12. #12
    Registered User Jon L's Avatar
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    The best jive video I have seen made so far of the ones in my collection is The Rebel Yell 2002. This video was different from the others in that a professional TV camera was used rather than a cam corder. The other advantage was that clip on Mics were used as opposed to overhead teaching mics. .

    Of the Steve Strong videos, the Bognor one this year wasn't good sound wise and also the dark stage wasn't good for filiming. The others he has made, Stompin in Brighton, Mr Lounge Lizzard's collection and Mr Sweeney's D-T are much better,

    As for learning things on videos, it is good to use them, however with some of the moves it is best to watch them then go back to the teacher and ask him/her to show you the move if you are at all unsure.

  13. #13
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB


    All DV cameras have a timecode, not just semi-pro cameras. But this does not necessarily eliminate sync problems. The sound becomes 1 frame out of sync for every 13m you move away from the speakers. In a hall as big as Blackpool this can start to be a problem, and you might have to adjust things slightly to look and sound right.

    Semi-pro cameras would have other advantages however, particularly better quality pictures, and the availability of wide-angle lenses.

    Editing facilities are not a problem. A PC running Premiere (or - just for Franck - an Apple running Final Cut Pro) is more than capable of editing multiple camera angles and soundtracks. For me the big advantage of a video club would be experienced cameramen, who might be able to keep things focussed!
    Good point. However, I was thinking more of slaving the cameras and DAT (or Nagra) to a generated time code. Mind you sound is not my department.

    On a job last year for C4 we used 2 PD150's (semi-pro camcorders) slaved to the sound recordists Nagra (yes he was a bit old-fashioned) which also intercut well with the main bulk of the programme shot on digi-beta. (It was Shakespeare's As You Like It)

    Have to agree Final Cut Pro is a superb package.

    Technical stuff apart, there is no excuse for c**p operating.

    M

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Mary
    However, I was thinking more of slaving the cameras and DAT (or Nagra) to a generated time code.
    Here you have the difference between an amateur (myself), and a professional (Mary). She knows what she is talking about - I just think I do.

  15. #15
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    DavidB your points are very valid and accurate. I confess I specialise in film and do not know quite so much about video (especially in the domestic market), however you have now prompted me to investigate further with my colleagues the best way to do this sort of thing on an economical semi-pro basis.

    However, I do not want to put peoples noses out of joint by being a snotty little know-it-all!

    After seeing some dire competition videos, I was rather impressed with last year's Rebel Yell video, and such a quick turnaround.

    M

  16. #16
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    I've been resurecting some video I produced for a charity jive marathon held about 4 years ago.

    The purpose of the video was as a fun momento of the whole event, rather than trying to re-teach each of the routines. There were a number of guest teachers throughout the day & each of the routines (with class interaction) were edited to an appropriate music track. Trying to keep the dancing in sync with the music was a nightmare, but I think it worked ok.

    Unfortunately, the video never made it to release, so all the hard work was in vain!

    Here's a routine by Lincoln Bryden (Ceroc Cheltenham) where he reversed the male & female roles... very entertaining! The download is around 3mb (Windows Media), unfortunately, I can't afford streamed media hosting at the moment, so be prepared for a bit of a wait before the video plays...

    http://www.video.uk-jive.co.uk/lincoln-bryden.wmv

  17. #17
    Originally posted by Mary
    DavidB your points are very valid and accurate. I confess I specialise in film and do not know quite so much about video (especially in the domestic market), however you have now prompted me to investigate further with my colleagues the best way to do this sort of thing on an economical semi-pro basis.

    However, I do not want to put peoples noses out of joint by being a snotty little know-it-all!

    After seeing some dire competition videos, I was rather impressed with last year's Rebel Yell video, and such a quick turnaround.

    M
    Hi
    I know Steve and he would welcome any advise would you be able to contact him direct (I can PM his number).
    Peter

  18. #18
    Registered User uk-jive's Avatar
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    As an addendum... Any comments about the video would be appreciated. If you feel the video is good enough, I have other routines which I may make available through the web, including a cool Kieran Loftus routine and a Kerrin Osmond (Blackpool champ) 'double trouble' class.



  19. #19
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    Hi I thought that I would log onto this forum to try to see if there was any feedback about the Ceroc 2003 Champs video but not a whisper. But imagine my surprise at the correspondence about the C2D 03 Video.

    Im surprised because…. Yes! I put my hands up! It is I who produced it!
    I also produced the c2d 02 and the Ceroc Champs 2001` 2002 and 2003 as well as Monster Jive Cocktail 4, 5 and 6.

    Im especially interested in the comments that the video is out of sync. Im concerned about this because of all the 200 copies produced not one comment was received about the video being out of sync. I have reviewed the originals and still cannot see where this is the case significantly.

    David B has very kindly corresponded with me directly at length about other issues he raised some of which may have interested you forum readers . It’s a shame he hasn’t had the opportunity to share our communication as this would have explained many of the issues discussed in this forum. Never mind.

    There is one or two element where sync drift could have occurred apart from the valid point David B makes about couples actually being out of time! I wont mention any numbers ect but they will know who they are- needless to say they did not get any further than the first round. But in addition to this especially in the intermediate and Air steps heats couples insist on putting a polished finish to their routines even though the music stopped a good few seconds before. Nothing wrong with that but was without music as the track often finished abruptly before the end catching people out . This had me fooled and quite worried until I realised that this was the case, born out by reviewing the original unedited footage.

    However there was a few technical problems on the day.

    We did go into a live mixer feed via XLR inputs but the DJ on several occasions accidentally turned down the sound mid stream causing the slave unit to have significant 30 second + segments with no sound. (this was our error for not taping down the level so that it could not be adjusted accidentally.)

    Also a tape broke in post production while I was laying off a naked stream for Clayton and Janine to audition for the ceroc champs showcases.

    Both of these caused post editing difficulties but as stated on the master there is no evidence of sync drift.

    Add to this the fact that the original edited offline footage was 5 ½ hours long due to the 16 showcases presented at c2d , making it necessary for the c2d team to review and decide what they wanted to take out to reduce the video to 4 hours and therefore a single tape. They decided that they needed to reduce all the early heats to half and so the middles were cut out. (on one occasion, sadly to my shame –badly cut) Also all the warm ups were cut and first or second competition heats (apart from the seniors I think) This was one of the reasons why the video also took a long time to be released. c2d had the footage for over four weeks in total to review it twice.

    Another option which I suggested was that I produce a separate tape/DVD for the showcases but because as has been rightly stated in this forum the profit generated by the videos was necessary to offset other costs meant that c2d could not afford the extra costs. Because unlike our competitors we make no charge for covering events (generating our income purely on sales after the event) meant that we were not able to bear the costs either (sometimes harsh decisions have to be made which is a shame as I had a lot of fine dancing edited and left on the cutting room floor so to speak)

    We relay heavily on the organisers of the videos to pick up on things we may have missed such as sync and spelling mistakes. Before the video goes into production they have to approve it which they did and they have not stated that the videos were out of sync. (mind you they didn’t pick up that one heat was accidentally excluded altogether nor did we so no system is fool proof!)

    Perhaps some of you (apart from david b who has said more than enough already)
    Could direct me specifically to examples of sync issues so that I can look again.

    Just a quick note on sync techniques. We use a non-linier edit system. Premier for the offline edit and Avid 3.5 for the online final edit. We also use a system that allows me to sync our four cameras to the timeline using a time coded waveform monitor, accurate to one frame in 25 . This not only allows you to see all four video and audio waveforms at once (thus being able to see that the patterns all conform and so sync up) but it also alerts you to any footage that falls out of sync by more than one frame with its own audio thread or any other video or audio thread it was originally lined up with. This is further automatically monitored every 15 seconds. So you see in the editing process it is virtually impossible under normal conditions to be out of sync. That is not to say mistakes don’t occur of course they do!

    I feel that I ought to point out a few other points

    I was a dancer for many years, jiving well before the concept of modern jive was even heard of ( but I think the concept is great!)

    We do use professional cameras as follows 1 x Cannon XM1 2 X Cannon XL1s and 1 X Sony DSR 250. We did use both mixed and ambient mics but c2d wanted mainly the mixer audio track only for the heats cutting out ambience ( their right naturally)

    Another problem with the c2d event is as rightly pointed out, the venue. (Great for dancing, nightmare for video, check out the 2000 c2d not covered by us) The lighting and sound systems are very poor. If you compare the footage to the Ceroc Champs the difference becomes very apparent as both events were shot in the same way using the same kit.

    I do in fact use film school students as crew as this is one of few opportunities for them to gain proper experience and get paid for it. In fact in their Uni I’m the only producer that does pay them!

    Film schools cannot cover events outside their own student remits as this is prohibited as a condition by suppliers selling them cut price kit. They also cannot insure the kit off the premises and cannot afford public liability insurance. Video clubs often lack the proper equipment to produce the products and also have issues as corporate voluntary groups with liability insurance

    I have seen our competitors products and as a professional I make no comment on their quality and technical issues. But its worth pointing out that without exception they are unlicensed. They are in effect pirate videos. Producing them without a licence or even buying one is illegal.

    Organisations allowing unlicensed video productions of their events can have their PPL’s withdrawn and they can get hefty fines. Licences have to be applied for and approved before copies can be produced. There is no such thing as a home use only exception.

    You don’t need to take my word for it. Simply log onto mcps.co.uk and read for yourself.. I think encouraging people to criticise my products so that a pirate can take the business is underhand at best. At worst its downright nasty and beneath what I have come to expect from the crowd I have met while videoing these events. Shame

    I really value peoples comments on what they like and don’t like to see and I took david b’s points on board with really good effect that allowed me to produce a really good ceroc champs DVD (in my humble opinion at least)

    Please feel free to advise me either directly on mac@jellybeanfilms.com or through this forum which I will watch with interest. Thanks for your time. Mac

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by martin McElroy
    Im especially interested in the comments that the video is out of sync.
    I never noticed the out of sync parts that others have mentioned. You dwell on this too much though it was only one criticism, what about the terrible footage e.g. dancers wandering off camera , and the terrible editing e.g. The team cabarets have giant ghost people on the same screen as tiny ghost people for many seconds..worst use of fade ive ever seen.

    The videos and especially DVDs simply weren't worth the money, thats the main complaint. There are plenty licensed operators who could surely do better!

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