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Thread: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

  1. #81
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Gus, you're right of course following is a skill that neads to be learned too. I do admit to having been arm-wrestled in submission a couple of times myself - once by a lady who I'm sure learned her art with the Bulgarian Shot Putt Squad!

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And whilst most women/follows would dearly love to see more men dancing, do you have any idea how awful it is being manhandled, often quite roughly, by nervous men who don't have a clue what they are doing?! And you are suggesting that we spend half the class just standing there waiting for this?
    I used to enjoy classes, but stopped doing them for the above reasons at the end of last year. I started to do them again this year, for the excercise, but I'm gonna have to stop again for the same reasons.

    The leads seem to get worse and worse as time goes by. My poor old bod is getting too old to be manhandled roughly.

  3. #83
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    All I was trying to saying was that in my opinion it would be helpful if followers were reminded in intermediate classes now and then, that it's OK to pause for a second or a (second and a half) till the lead becomes apparent, I think it might help the confidence for a lot of inexperienced followers if they heard that.
    I think that's a correct bit of advice to give to followers isn't it?

    [...]

    I've danced in a few different locations, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow and London and they've never mentioned anything like the above advice to followers, that's the main reason I'm putting it on here because if it's the right thing to say then shouldn't it be said all over?

    If it's the wrong advice then hopefully someone on here will correct me and I'll shut up.
    So is your advice to followers "wait for the lead"?

    If so, from my point of view, it is the right advice sometimes, and the wrong advice sometimes.

    When learning tricky moves I sometimes need the help of a follower who has figured out the right positions and can back-lead me through the move. Once I've got the shape, then I can lead it.

    However, I've found once I then actually do lead the move, the chances of the follower actually following rather than trying to back-lead is much reduced.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  4. #84
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Which specific comments illustrate it?
    I'm a bit lost on what you're looking for.

    Ladies choosing not to do classes. I could have added ladies asking up etc (if that helps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    IMO the advanced and experienced male dancers are explaining how they improved from being less advanced male dancers to becoming advanced dancers and it would probably be wise for less advanced male dancers to listen to them.
    To a degree. However it shouldn't just be blindly accepted for reasons including:-
    • Survivor bias.

    • Who, given the reaction, is going to say they did act selfishly.

    • Possibly, a degree of exceptionalism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Is that alignment Lawful / Neutral / Evil / Chaotic / Good?
    Obviously.
    Last edited by frodo; 24th-March-2008 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    DD

    Happy to pick up on any of the discussion points over a beer next time I'm up in Edinburgh. I'll be at RH&B more than likely on 18 April, let me know how successful you think your approach has turned out.

    Like straycat264 not sure that any posts from me can make much of a difference in the way you're looking at things. All input from me on this thread terminated..................

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ... Followers never being told in class what their role is during class/freestyle...
    This seems to be generally true. It is my view that this may actually be a good thing. Beginner ladies often try to learn the moves and to help (backlead) the man. It does not take too long for one partner or another to explain about following. In the meantime they may well have helped a struggling beginner. Backleading may be evil, but so is leaving a beginner man alone, lost and helpless. (This seems to be a minority view)

    ....So I'm trying to figure out all these half taught new moves ...
    Don't. There are hundreds of them, and hundreds of those should be quietly lost from normal class nights. (Perhaps another minority view.)

    Of the intermediate moves in my repetoire about 1/3 have come from class, 1/3 have come from watching other men leading and picking up their "cool" moves. 1/3 have come from videos of lessons or championships. 1/3 have come from class. Sometimes I have had to wait for the "cool" moves to come up in a class before I got them, but I was prepared to concentrate on then when they showed up.

    I did try for a while watching women leading, figuring that they would know what women liked. I found that I already knew just about all of them, which reinforces the keep the moves simple and do them well advice. (I must try that sometime ...)

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    When learning tricky moves I sometimes need the help of a follower who has figured out the right positions and can back-lead me through the move. Once I've got the shape, then I can lead it.

    However, I've found once I then actually do lead the move, the chances of the follower actually following rather than trying to back-lead is much reduced.
    I personally hate it when a follower back leads me through something, as I find it doesn't help me learn to actually lead the move in the slightest. That's just personal preference though.

    On the second point though, I’ve found that most women who back lead habitually also do so ahead of the beat or count. In other words they’re not only back leading, but they’re also out of time because they’re rushing ahead. I’d have to actively fight them in this case in order to then be able to lead them on time, which is slightly annoying and feels like arm wrestling a gorilla from time to time. In an intermediate class all I can assume when this happens is that the teachers hasn’t taught anything about lead and follow or (much more likely) the person in question hasn’t listened.

    As pig headed as it makes me sound….. I’m happy to let my partner take the blame rather than my lead sometimes. I am a Bad Man.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I personally hate it when a follower back leads me through something, as I find it doesn't help me learn to actually lead the move in the slightest. That's just personal preference though...
    At the classes I attend back-leading has died out after a couple of classes. The rare ones that help me in intermediate class almost invariably have got it right - I have completely "lost it." The only time it does throw me is when there is a complex lead, e.g. three things happening at once. I sometimes try to do these in slow motion to coordinate the actions, intending to speed up once I have got it. If a lady helps me during this process it almost invariably destroys my chances of getting the move. The breakdown of the lead-follow process inn this matter upsets me. I suppose that is some sort of control issue.

    ... which is slightly annoying and feels like arm wrestling a gorilla from time to time...
    That is the feeling I am talking about.

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    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    This seems to be generally true. It is my view that this may actually be a good thing. Beginner ladies often try to learn the moves and to help (backlead) the man. It does not take too long for one partner or another to explain about following. In the meantime they may well have helped a struggling beginner. Backleading may be evil, but so is leaving a beginner man alone, lost and helpless. (This seems to be a minority view)
    Well it is one I actually share (I was going to post about this but I could be bothered trying to articulate it into a post). At my current dance level I'd prefer to lead through the moves and get it wrong than be backlead to get it right. I'm a reasonably confident dancer now and my confidence can take the hit that I didn't get it right. On the other hand if I was an early beginner and the follower just stood their looking questioningly at my lead then maybe my confidence wouldn't be high enough to assume that "this dancing thing" was right for me. So at times I'd say let backleading go on if it makes people enjoy the dance rather than have a dance that feels like a few awkward minutes of getting it wrong.

    I often found cases, in my first few months, where I'd watch dancers who looked really good and, then dancing with them, I found weren't very "easy" to lead at all. I assumed that they weren't very good . Of course later I realised that the followers I thought were better just tended to backlead to make the move work and those dancers I found difficult just needed me to actually lead and, behold, they turned out to be as awesome as they looked when dancing with other people.

  10. #90
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Going back to the question in the title of how selfish does a lead have to be to improve?


    I suppose you could argue that trying something new may not work in the short term but in the long term it may make you a better dancer. This provides both partners with net benefits so it isnt actually selfish in the long term if done right.


    In the short term, if you want to try a new move then you have to try it in freestyle for the first time at some point, ie on a woman who won't be expecting it (if a woman is expecting it then she may help you along or, by trying not to help, actually make it harder). So at some point you have to try and lead a move that you probably cant lead well. This may be seen as being selfish but how else do you learn to lead it? My view has always been that if this results in the dance breaking down (especially if it is for the second time) then you should make an effort to make sure the rest of the dance goes ok and not try different moves.

    As i also said earlier, breaking moves up into different bits can also help. For instance, if a move involves an accordion into something else then you can either just do the accordion or do the accordion into something else (am absolutely rubbish with move names). If you just practice doing the accordion at first then this will make the longer move easier if you try it later. Doing the longer move first is much harder as you have a lot more to think about and so it is probably more likely to go wrong in more ways. This can mean that instead of thinking, 'ah, that went wrong,' that there was so much that went wrong that you couldnt work out how to lead it better next time. This can lead to you binning the move but if you do it the previous way then you still have the accordion bit. If an accordion+something move comes up again the next week or in following weeks then you will be in a better position to do it in freestyle (some teachers do try to teach similar moves in successive weeks).

    Am not a fan of telling someone i am going to go through the routine. Aside from everything else, doesnt this basically take you back to the class situation as the woman knows what is going to happen?

    Another point on improving is that maybe you should think about how tired you are? I work shifts and so my body clock is often askew so maybe this applies more to me than others. If i try to do new things when i am tired then they are far less likely to work. In these conditions it is much easier simply to stick with what i (think i) can do well - hopefully the repetition will improve things.

    In terms of who should you dance with then the answer is everyone. Surprisingly enough i used to think that some moves were very difficult to lead on newbies but as i get more experienced i find that i can lead more and more moves on them. I wonder which end the problems are at

  11. #91
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    I think the answer is ZERO (0).

    I think the more unselfish you are in your dancing, the better you will be.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I think the answer is ZERO (0).
    I disagree.
    The point was made earlier that a new move learned in class needs to be practiced. The class teaches the mechanics of the move but little of the subtlety of making it feel good.
    It seems obvious to me that this initial learning will result in mistakes and roughness and general low enjoyment factor.
    The Follower is expected to tolerate the Leader while he is learning his new move, or have I got this part completely wrong?. That involves a selfish attitude on the part of the learning Leader, "I will practice this move tonight even though I know I'm going to get it wrong".
    For my own part and I've said it before, it takes me around two months to hone a new move to a level I think I am competent with it. During the first week or two I will only practice the new move on a class night and later I will incorporate it into Party nights.
    That to me defines selfish for my own ends (to learn more) even though the final outcome is to the benefit (hopefully) of the dance community .

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    On the second point though, I’ve found that most women who back lead habitually also do so ahead of the beat or count. In other words they’re not only back leading, but they’re also out of time because they’re rushing ahead. I’d have to actively fight them in this case in order to then be able to lead them on time, which is slightly annoying and feels like arm wrestling a gorilla from time to time.
    Any tips into breaking this habit.

    The only thing I can think of would be to push/compress the follower straight back (like an in & out) straight away if they were to jump the gun and step forward before being led. Doing this so they won't expect it and so I'll be in a better position to lead them forward while they are caught unaware. I've not overly tried this approach but the odd occasion I have tried it, it sort of worked.

    As for gorilla arms, to me, that's just about far, far, far, far too much tension in the arms. A thing that naturally leads to unintentional back-leading.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Any tips into breaking this habit.
    Lead late, behind the beat. Even to the point of going "oops" at the start so that you are a count behind the rest of the class. Alternativly, let them rush through a bit, then have them wait for the rest of the class to cach up before you lead the next bit.
    Normally I can get followers to stop watching the stage and rushing ahead - but I admit, one or two end up as arm wrestling

    How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?
    Leading is, by it's nature, selfish. You are a lead. it's your 'job' to be in control of the dance and lead the follower. You're in control, you're choosing the moves, leading the timeing, listening to the music and fitting it all together.

    With all that buzing round and being soley responsible for your partner, it is a insular, commanding dance. Followers who are not subserviant to your lead are fighting against you and distracting from your buisness of leading.

    That's how I used to dance. For years. Without much/any complaint it must be said. At that time, no-one really reversed roles within a dance or hi-jacked or sabotaged - that would be rude. What turned it round for me was dancing with a follower who hi-jacked, then discussing why (I'm sure the thread is still about somewhere). Basically I wasn't paying attention to my partner or how they heard the music. I now try to pay attention more and use what my follower gives me. My dancing is much more rewarding because it's now more of a partnership.
    If my follower has little to add to the dance, then I will adjust the balance so I have more input than they do. If they have more to add, then I will step back and let them add it.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Any tips into breaking this habit.
    Don't bother, and don't ask them to dance at freestyle. It's not worth the aggravation.

    I know it's harsh, but I don't really think there's anything you can do except tell them what they're doing wrong and probably hurt their feelings. Most people will take well delivered advice as it was intended, but as we've ascertained that the person in this case isn't listening to yet anyway and is ignoring the teacher entirely I think the chances of anyone getting through to them are slim.

    At the very best, doing something unexpected in the routine to knock them back on time is just likely to stop them dancing altogether and giving you the "***?" look. Someone who was at least trying to follow may notice it and take the hint (and hopefully smile at the same time) but this isn't that person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Lead late, behind the beat.
    I fail to see how this helps anyone.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Any tips into breaking this habit.
    Something I've tried recently:
    When I'm not leading my follower to go somewhere, I lead her to stay still. Then, if she moves early, she is moving against my lead, rather than moving in the absence of a lead. This is more obvious to her.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    {Lead late} I fail to see how this helps anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    ...if she moves early, she is moving against my lead, rather than moving in the absence of a lead. This is more obvious to her.
    The objective is to get the follower to understand that I am leading and they are following. That it's not a choriographed routine they have to churn through. That they can take their time and still be dancing. By leading a fraction later, it increases the sensation of resistance that the follower feels when they try to move quicker and it has the advantage of smoothing out the movement as well.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Well it is one I actually share (I was going to post about this but I could be bothered trying to articulate it into a post). At my current dance level I'd prefer to lead through the moves and get it wrong than be backlead to get it right. I'm a reasonably confident dancer now and my confidence can take the hit that I didn't get it right. On the other hand if I was an early beginner and the follower just stood their looking questioningly at my lead then maybe my confidence wouldn't be high enough to assume that "this dancing thing" was right for me. So at times I'd say let backleading go on if it makes people enjoy the dance rather than have a dance that feels like a few awkward minutes of getting it wrong.
    I don't backlead in classes or freestyles - though I admit I used to do it in my first year.

    I admit to backleading the musicallity - like timing and freezes - with leads who haven't yet developed it. They always look pleased at the end and are always up for a dance. So I believe this sort of backleading is positive. Or does it have another name?

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I admit to backleading the musicallity - like timing and freezes - with leads who haven't yet developed it. They always look pleased at the end and are always up for a dance. So I believe this sort of backleading is positive. Or does it have another name?
    Hyjack.
    And Yes, I appreciate that in my partners.

  20. #100
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    I was very grateful for assistance from more experienced followers when I first started MJ even in the form of backleading moves. Without that kind of help, I may have given up.

    Nowadays, I don't really notice much of it but then I rarely do MJ classes.

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