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Thread: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

  1. #61
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    What are you basing this comment on?
    Well I was using the convenient comments above it to illustrate it. If it is thought in doubt, that could be another thread.

    This thread has now had 58 replies, the majority of which have tried to address the issues raised in a thoughtful, detailed and constructive manner (I note you have yet to address the question raised. Will you enlighten us soon?)
    Thread focus, and my ability to express it permitting.

    Perhaps post 51 has given the impression that DD is not interested in the advice received.
    My impression was he was paying quite a lot of attention to the advice received, but has reservations about some of it.

    As do I.

    Groups and Viewpoints

    While jive-vee creditably considered the relevance of her viewpoint:-

    IMO many of the advanced and experienced male dancers replying are not putting themselves nearly enough in the position of a less advanced male dancer.

    The above male dancers can tend to form an aligned group with female dancers.

    Naturally, it can take some effort to keep an open mind to see concerns outside that group as legitimate.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    IMO many of the advanced and experienced male dancers replying are not putting themselves nearly enough in the position of a less advanced male dancer.
    Sorry Frodo but can't really agree. I spend hours every week with male and female dancers that have been dancing for relatively short periods of time - some only a few weeks! They get the same messages that have been delivered in this thread.

    Male or female, lead or follow it is about being switched on to each other when you're dancing. It is certainly not about controlling the dance but is about developing the skill to get yourself so clued into your partner of the moment so that you can see how they react to what you do. And we all get that wrong - some more than others. Ask my wife how many times we've danced where she's felt I've been clued into her!!! Perhaps that's a topic for a whole other thread.....................................

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The above male dancers can tend to form an aligned group with female dancers.

    Naturally, it can take some effort to keep an open mind to see concerns outside that group as legitimate.
    Dance is a social thing, so I'd expect to see some kind of alignment. The comments in the thread are not about ostracizing different views, they are intended to point out that if you take a selfish and judgemental view then others will more than likely do the same back.

    What is an advanced and experienced male anyway? I've got slightly under 2 years dancing experience so I can easily see DD's point in wanting to improve because my memory of being a beginner is still fresh. More to the point I've got 3 weeks of Salsa behind me and know exactly what it feels like to look at the ease that others dance when I'm still wondering if I should be stepping off on my left foot or right. Goodness knows what it will be like when I eventually get round to WCS. There is no 'advanced male club' I know of (although the girls may like to start one) and no-one is trying to keep 'new' dancers down.
    Last edited by Agente Secreto; 23rd-March-2008 at 04:46 PM. Reason: missed word - one day i'll get a post right first time!!

  3. #63
    Registered User Isis's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Well I was using the convenient comments above it to illustrate it.
    Which specific comments illustrate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    IMO many of the advanced and experienced male dancers replying are not putting themselves nearly enough in the position of a less advanced male dancer.
    IMO the advanced and experienced male dancers are explaining how they improved from being less advanced male dancers to becoming advanced dancers and it would probably be wise for less advanced male dancers to listen to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    The above male dancers can tend to form an aligned group with female dancers.
    Is that alignment Lawful / Neutral / Evil / Chaotic / Good?

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Followers act to a degree in their own interests, rightly or wrongly.
    I'm all for dancers acting in their own interests and furthering their own goals.

    The problem was that the plan of our man in Dundee originally suggested goes against his professed goals. I wa's likely to slow down the development of his lead, and reduce his enjoyment of social dancing, for the reasons given above. Now that he has explained that in fact he does not intend to do anything he originally suggested, I feel happier that he will go on to achieve great things.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    No doubt someone on here will try to argue that I should have given a special lead to that follower who couldn't follow my perfectly good lead but on class night I don't think I should be compensating that much for them.
    The "special lead" required is largely about projecting confidence and inspiring trust. This is important with all abilities of follower.

  5. #65
    Registered User Little Black Dress's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Is that alignment Lawful / Neutral / Evil / Chaotic / Good?
    Sorry, bit off topic but felt it lightened things up a little!

  6. #66
    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I have never given or plan on giving a beginner/poor intermediate an unpleasant dance.
    I only suggested that to stir up some emotion and debate
    Aaaaaah, so you were only trolling?








    Right. Bite tongue. Now.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    No doubt someone on here will try to argue that I should have given a special lead to that follower who couldn't follow my perfectly good lead but on class night I don't think I should be compensating that much for them, party nights certainly.
    Well - if you insist
    My philosophy here is quite simple. Forget 'special' leads or any such - if I try to lead a move, and my partner mistakes the lead, I did not lead the move in a way said partner could follow it. Hence, I led it wrong for her. Hence, if I want to do the move with her, I should experiment to find a way of leading it such that she can follow it. I know I'm repeating myself a lot here, but I'm still not sure you've understood what I'm trying to say. Put it down, if you will, to bad communication on my part.

    One needs to get away from a one-size-fits-all mentality. Every leader is different. Every follower is different. We often change from day to day, even from dance to dance. I do not adjust my lead to take care of 'special' cases. I adjust my lead constantly, and constantly try to make it work for every single person I dance with, in exactly the same way that most followers have to do to be able to follow different leaders. The fact that a certain lead worked for person A does not mean it's the best way to lead person B.

    I don't believe there's any such thing as a follower who's not good enough to follow me. There's simply followers (on all levels) that I haven't yet worked out how to lead properly.

  8. #68
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I have never given or plan on giving a beginner/poor intermediate an unpleasant dance.
    I only suggested that to stir up some emotion and debate on...to be more unselfish then we all stand to have much more to gain.
    Aaaaaah, so you were only trolling?

    Right. Bite tongue. Now.
    In a kind of way, yes

    All the good advice on the thread is still there for people to read and use (including myself).

    All the arguments in the thread on saying how I had this very bad selfish attitude, well people can turn that around on themselves and ask themselves what they are doing to put back into Ceroc what they have already taken out.

    Also I hope it has highlighted that quite a number of followers even at intermediate level need a little more advice coming from teachers and taxi dancers that they should be relaxing and waiting for clear leads rather than guessing what to do, hopefully that advice coming from points of authority with give them the extra confidence in there dancing.

    You can tell a lot of passion and energy has been expressed in all the above posting which if channelled correctly will help me greatly in learning some wicked new moves

    (ok ok I'll think on musicality, positioning, posture, my lead, connection, styling as well, before you all start )


    Cheers, DD

    (aka the moves monster)

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Also I hope it has highlighted that quite a number of followers even at intermediate level need a little more advice coming from teachers and taxi dancers that they should be relaxing and waiting for clear leads rather than guessing what to do, hopefully that advice coming from points of authority with give them the extra confidence in there dancing.
    Ever seen Waiting for Godot? From what I'm told, a large number of follows don't wait for a clear lead because they'd like to get on and dance some time this week

    This is, I'll agree, a bit of a problem in most partner dance environments - follows tend to self-lead during classes to help the leads out, hence the leads don't realise when they're not leading a move properly, and the whole mess spills out into freestyle and becomes a part of the culture.

    It is a much-discussed point, with no easy clear answer, but one of the points that I've been trying (perhaps far too subtly) to make is that you can't lay this exclusively at the door of the follows. Leads have an equal role in the problem, and they have an equal role in any solution.

  10. #70
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Ever seen Waiting for Godot? From what I'm told, a large number of follows don't wait for a clear lead because they'd like to get on and dance some time this week

    ...snip etc...

    It is a much-discussed point, with no easy clear answer, but one of the points that I've been trying (perhaps far too subtly) to make is that you can't lay this exclusively at the door of the Leads. Followers have an equal role in the problem, and they have an equal role in any solution
    No still waiting to see Godot.

    As for the rest of your post you troller I'm not biting, well go on then just a little nimble.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    ........Every leader is different. Every follower is different. ........... I adjust my lead constantly, and constantly try to make it work for every single person I dance with, ................ There's simply followers (on all levels) that I haven't yet worked out how to lead properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    ......... Leads have an equal role in the problem, and they have an equal role in any solution.
    I approach dancing as entertainment/enjoyment and that applies to both sides of the partnership.
    I usually start with a hand jive (I know, I'm boring) where little expertise/thought is required to get going, to get the beat and feel my partner.
    And over the next couple of simple moves feel for my Follower's abilities and connection. Then, I decide how I am going to proceed to make the remainder of the dance as enjoyable as I am capable of making it.
    A lot of my satisfaction comes from the successful completion of each lead/follow and whole moves that connect well, particularly when it shows in the face of my partner. It even comes from her body (language).

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post

    All the good advice on the thread is still there for people to read and use (including myself).
    Perhaps a great song for you to dance to would be..... Oh what's it called??? The one Carly Simon wrote for Warren Beatty......

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    No still waiting to see Godot.

    As for the rest of your post you troller I'm not biting, well go on then just a little nimble.
    I'm trolling? Let's see now. You asked a set of questions, in an area where I have some experience. I've answered. Very patiently, imho. If you choose to respond to this with an insult, I think it's best if I
    a) suggest you re-read the points people have made about the way you can affect your own reputation, and
    b) withdraw from any further discussion with you.

    Have fun,

    Stray

  14. #74
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by WittyBird View Post
    Perhaps a great song for you to dance to would be..... Oh what's it called??? The one Carly Simon wrote for Warren Beatty......
    The one off the Album "Anticipation" Track 2 "Legend In Your Own Time"

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    The one off the Album "Anticipation" Track 2 "Legend In Your Own Time"
    Kinda confirms the point I was making :watt:

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    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Could only be Red Hot & Blues you are talking about. I didn't sense any form of clique behaviour at all.
    You seem like a bit of an "outsider" and it's good that you didn't get a clique vibe. Often I worry that the only reason I don't see clique behaviour is because I'm a part of it . I stupidly arranged a business call for Friday evening so couldn't come to RH&B (and after waiting never actually got the call ).

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I usually start with a hand jive (I know, I'm boring)
    Arm Jive or actual Hand Jive? I've never know anyone to start with the hand jive so you'd be pretty unique. Most people start with something they do regularly so, since followers get different leads starting in different ways, they won't normally find it as boring as you, the lead, do.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Arm Jive or actual Hand Jive? I've never know anyone to start with the hand jive so you'd be pretty unique. Most people start with something they do regularly so, since followers get different leads starting in different ways, they won't normally find it as boring as you, the lead, do.
    Shows how little I know, when I can't even get the name of the move right (or is that left?)
    "I'm boring" implies: to other people, not to myself.
    Thanks K, I know I'm unique, but nice with it.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    All the good advice on the thread is still there for people to read and use (including myself).
    DD, while you may be reading I'm not sure that you get the message. Your posts clearly seem to place the blame for your frustration and lack of progress on the followers and for progression you need to look at yourself. The lead always carries the can for a missed move. If you give a decent lead 95% of followers will execute the moves, not 30%. Chalk the other 5% down to being human - we can all make mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    All the arguments in the thread on saying how I had this very bad selfish attitude
    ......................... Look at the tone of your messages - they speak for themselves

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ......well people can turn that around on themselves and ask themselves what they are doing to put back into Ceroc what they have already taken out.
    Dancing is not about taking but about a sort of mutual giving - might be a step too far for the 'want-it-now generation'

    Look at the comments you're getting back - many come from people that put something in every week - by teaching and taxi-dancing etc. And think about what the 'poor followers' put in every week dancing with guys that might not appreciate how difficult it can be to follow indecisive leads and waiting in lines just to get a chance to get on the floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Also I hope it has highlighted that quite a number of followers even at intermediate level need a little more advice coming from teachers and taxi dancers that they should be relaxing and waiting for clear leads rather than guessing what to do, hopefully that advice coming from points of authority with give them the extra confidence in there dancing.
    Can't agree. Travelling around as I do I see no widespread problem with followers - but do regularly spot leads that have a lot to learn!

    I've only been to CEROC Edinburgh a couple of times and found the standard of teaching generally good so have you had a chat with your local teacher? Might have been more productive than this series of posts. Where I dance we regularly mention to followers about waiting for a lead; as straycat264 says though eventually even the most patient follower gets sick of waiting. Mostly these followers are trying to help the lead out, it has the opposite effect of course since you get a false idea of your ability to lead.

    Back to what I said earlier, in 95% of my dances my leads are followed and that is by beginners, intermediates and advanced dancers alike. The other 5% are my fault!!!

    We aim to equip people with enough to get going and after that all we ask is that you have the courage to get out there and dance with the aim of both lead and follow enjoying themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ....(ok ok I'll think on musicality, positioning, posture, my lead, connection, styling as well, before you all start )

    All of these are far more important than 'wicked new moves' - sadly I don't believe that you're yet at the point where you ready to assimilate that and I suspect that 70% of ladies will continue to fail to meet your expectations for some time to come.
    Last edited by Agente Secreto; 24th-March-2008 at 02:21 PM. Reason: pressed wrong button - again

  19. #79
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    I've only been to CEROC Edinburgh a couple of times and found the standard of teaching generally good so have you had a chat with your local teacher?
    Where did I say in this thread that the teaching wasn't good in the Edinburgh area? I certainly hope I wasn't imply that! I think the teaching is really good, I would have given up ages ago if I didn't find the classes so enjoyable.

    All I was trying to saying was that in my opinion it would be helpful if followers were reminded in intermediate classes now and then, that it's OK to pause for a second or a (second and a half) till the lead becomes apparent, I think it might help the confidence for a lot of inexperienced followers if they heard that.
    I think that's a correct bit of advice to give to followers isn't it?

    Before someone says it's my fault for the 200th time, I see this happening when sitting out and watching other couples dancing.
    (What's that I'm seeing things as well now, or maybe I'm putting them off by watching )

    I've danced in a few different locations, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow and London and they've never mentioned anything like the above advice to followers, that's the main reason I'm putting it on here because if it's the right thing to say then shouldn't it be said all over?

    If it's the wrong advice then hopefully someone on here will correct me and I'll shut up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    All of these are far more important than 'wicked new moves'
    You missed out the bit about "(ok ok I'll think on musicality, positioning, posture, my lead, connection, styling as well, before you all start)"

    It was an obvious tongue in cheek joke which was saying I was taking on board the comments that people have been making on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Back to what I said earlier, in 95% of my dances my leads are followed and that is by beginners, intermediates and advanced dancers alike. The other 5% are my fault!!!
    I don't think that's right and on this forum this point seems to be taken to seriously which I object to. I've found people on the dance floor are actually a lot more relaxed about this.

    Are followers not human, are they not allowed to make mistakes 5% of the time? The statement above assumes they follow perfectly.

    I think Straycats comments above is a lot closer to reality, to my mind I would tweak his comments to something like below but then again maybe I have a lot more to learn than I think.
    "you can't lay this exclusively at the door of the Leads. Followers have an role in the problem, and they have a role in any solution."

    If it's not like that then where is the challenge for them to follow well?

    As for my own personal progression I known there is a large number of factors to be considered and I'll be looking to work on them all.

    Regards, DD.
    Last edited by DundeeDancer; 24th-March-2008 at 04:19 PM.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Can't agree. Travelling around as I do I see no widespread problem with followers - but do regularly spot leads that have a lot to learn!
    Have to agree with the majority of what you've said ... but not sure I totally agree with this point. As a leader there IS a lot you can with a follower ... but this is severely curtailed if the follower is dancing so she can't be lead. It seems to be endemic in some groups of dancers, usually reasonably experienced dancers who may think they are putting 'style' into their dancing but they end up by locking out moves or overanticipating. Danced at Ceroc Hyde on Friday and had to endure at least had a dozen lasses who were in this zone. In the end I gave up trying to control the dance and just gave them enough tension for them to destroy the dance. Perversely, one of the nicest dances of the night was with a lass who'd had 3 lessons but just stepped on the beat and followed the lead.

    So .. yes, totally agree that the lead can contribute a lot to the dance going awry ... but its not ALWAYS the guys fault.

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