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Thread: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But dancing isn't normally considered a combat sport.
    There have been some dance parties which made me wonder ...

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    A possible way to improve your dancing as a leader is to respond more to the way the follower moves naturally. This was something that was mentioned at a class I did with Lucky and Ruby at Breeze. It started with the lead pressing some fingers gently into the spine of the follower near the small of the back and feeling their natural movement and then picking up their rhythm from that and taking it as a starting point. Lucky pointed out in his charming way that ladies are often better natural movers than men (he also says that every lady in his class is beautiful!) and that this can lead to a better dance - it is mostly relevant for blues but could be used more generally. I haven't explained this very well but I am sure that those who have been lucky enough to dance with Lucky could explain it better. Isn't this the true essence of partnership?

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I've been holding back on commenting because although I strongly suspect 95% of the technical problems are on your side, that's an unproveable assumption over the internet. Given your handle and location, I've been hoping there are knowledgeable forumites who've actually danced with you who would comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    surprisingly none of the more advance dancers on here are making comment yet so I’m starting to think maybe it is an approach they are already using but don’t want to talk about it.
    I've so far bitten my tongue (or indeed sat on my hands so I couldn't type a reply), but I'm going to have to say a few words..... So far I've just been too gobsmacked by your completely appaling attitude, and have had to stop myself from typing a very nasty reply! Talking to other experienced forumites who have also read this thread, they've done the same. A lot of people are disgusted by this attitude!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Speaking personally I can't say I ever use the strategy you describe. Instead I do my best to make the dance work with every follower. Like every experienced lead, it's something I'm still working on.

    Just because better dancers seek each other out doesn't mean they don't also dance with beginners and intermediates. And it certainly doesn't mean they try to give the beginners and intermediates a bad dance.
    I would say that all the really great dancers I know are people who will always dance to their partner's abilities. This doesn't mean they won't stretch the followers abilities, but it means they don't set out to make the dance deliberately difficult, and they will assess their partners following and adapt their lead to make the dance as pleasant as possible for both of them.

    When I lead, I always try to do this. If I dance with beginner followers, I will definitely not be attempting lots of complicated moves with fancy footwork (like manhattans etc), but will probably attempt a few intermediate moves, and do my best to lead them smoothly and clearly. If the move goes wrong, I normally ask myself 'Now, what did I do wrong here? Why did this not work?' I might try to lead the same move a bit later on in the dance, and make an extra effort on leading the move very clearly, and most of the time the lady will then follow with no problems at all. I will never try to tell the lady what she's meant to be doing, tut, or give her a lecture about following.

    When I dance with more experienced followers, I am more free to just play with the music and mess about. Anyone who's been lead by me will know I don't have a vast repertoire of moves, but try to adapt the moves I use to the music, and apply variations, and also let the lady 'express herself' and experiment with musicality, if she wants to. It's all about having fun, after all, but I do find that I learn a lot from leading people of all levels and abilities, and very often dancing with relative beginners or intermediates challenges my leading skills more than dancing with the advanced followers, because I have to be a lot clearer in my lead, and apply more concentration and focus on the follower.

    It looks like this approach to leading pleases the followers, as I have had several ladies asking me to teach them to lead like me, and I've also had a lot of men asking me to help them with their dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I remember a time when I thought that most of my problems were down to bad followers, because when I danced with the best, everything I led worked.

    But as I have got better, I have learnt that more often than not the problems are my fault, and the best followers are just better at coping with my mistakes.
    Exactly! The problem with only dancing with experienced followers is that they very often cover up your mistakes, and makes you think that you've led the move properly. If I was to only dance what the beginner or intermediate leads actually lead properly, I would probably end up just standing still half the time, which wouldn't make for a very good dance. In a class setting I would give feedback on the lead of the particular move, but in freestyle I'm there to enjoy myself, and not to act as a private teacher, so unless asked, I will just carry on dancing, and try to make the dance look as smooth as possible.

    Lily B is an amazing example of someone who can make even the worst dancers look good. She's elegant, gracious and always looks like she's enjoying herself, no matter what the level of the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Well, at least you're honest about what you're doing. But I think you're going to find yourself getting a very bad reputation very quickly with that attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by firefly View Post

    DD, you come across as a nice guy in person and by PM, but whether by accident or not your forum postings aren't painting you in the best light. {snip} putting down other people in the process probably isn't the best way to go about doing it. Confidence can be a fragile thing, and as noted above people also have long memories. Not in terms of holding a grudge, just remembering someone who made them feel bad at the start of their dance career and so not particularly wishing to dance with them later on.
    Exactly! You seem like a nice enough guy in real life, but your posts on this forum are not doing you any favours at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Dancers at roughly my level would want to dance with me.
    Why? If they know about the attitude you've got, they might well be put off. And you're actively seeking to discourage people who you think are not 'good enough' to dance with you, meaning you'll soon get rather a bad reputation.

    Also - why should more experienced dancers want to dance with you, if all you're concerned about is your own dancing and practicing your latest intermediate moves? Tell me - what would I get out of dancing with you? I really don't see any reason why I should bother, to be quite honest.


    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    No complaints about my posture.
    No my moves don’t match the music, I think that is way beyond me at this moment.
    I’ve been told my lead is clear and smooth by taxi dancers and the more experienced dancer when I get a chance to dance with them.
    Have you asked anyone on advice on your posture? On how to improve your lead? And should you not at this point start learning about musicality, if you're so eager to improve as a dancer? Or is your main goal as a dancer to just learn as many moves as possible, and not care about musicality and trying to give the better dancers a pleasant dance?


    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Yes, I’m maxing out 70% of followers I dance with by trying nearly any intermediate move where I don’t have both hands on my partner to totally control the situation.
    Again - this might have a lot more to do with your abilities to lead than you think. I've danced with beginner/intermediate Argentine tango dancers who have stuggled to lead me into quite simple moves (I've only done a tiny bit of tango, and am a complete novice). Then I've danced with pros who have smoothly and easily lead me into the same moves without even touching me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I find that surpising, I think you might be telling the difference between good and bad intermediates at this point but sorry I don’t really care.


    Excellent attitude DD. Good luck with ostracizing yourself from the MJ world.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Should you not at this point start learning about musicality, if you're so eager to improve as a dancer?
    The guy's striving to become a "competent intermediate", so I'd expect working on lead/follow, floorcraft, and etiquette would be more important.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    The guy's striving to become a "competent intermediate", so I'd expect working on lead/follow, floorcraft, and etiquette would be more important.
    Yes, all of the above is important. However, it doesn't hurt to start listening to the music at this point and try to not just focus on moves-moves-moves, but how to adapt your dancing to the music. Just simple things to start with, like how to adapt moves to slower/faster tracks, what moves are suitable to dance to different types of music etc.

    I just said this because so far he seems to just focus on himself and learning new moves, and not at all on actually giving his dance partners a good dance. Of course floor craft, lead and follow etc etc are absolutely essential to become a better dancer!

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    .... like how to adapt moves to slower/faster tracks, what moves are suitable to dance to different types of music etc.
    where do you learn this. I've not bumped into it in a workshop, yet. So, only by practicing on the dance floor.
    Thinking about it, this is another area where I am particularly weak.

    I just said this because so far he seems to just focus on himself and learning new moves, and not at all on actually giving his dance partners a good dance. Of course floor craft, lead and follow etc etc are absolutely essential to become a better dancer!
    if 70% of his moves are going wrong then he's bound to be at a loss to know why.
    Brave of him to put himself above the parapet and ask "how do I make myself better".
    So, he's here now and where to next?
    There are many suggestions and offers to hand and I'm sure he will take the time to examine all options to find a way forward.
    BTW,
    we are not here to teach him to be eloquent and he didn't ask. But we can try to help with his dancing. Did you offer last night when you met up with him.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    where do you learn this. I've not bumped into it in a workshop, yet. So, only by practicing on the dance floor.
    Thinking about it, this is another area where I am particularly weak.
    Franck does workshops on this. The last Stirling focus workshop was on dancing to slow music. I did this as a lead and found it really helpful.

    The Kirriemuir weekends are a great place to learn from Franck - I can only echo what's already been said about his workshops The Kirriemuir weekends always have great workshops on technique and connection. I've learnt so much from the two weekends I've been to, and from the focus workshops I've done, both as a follow and as a lead.

    The Beach Ballroom workshops on technique, taught by the likes of Simon and Nicole, and David and Lily B have also been highly instrumental in improving my dancing - thanks guys!

    Keep an eye out for these on the webpage...

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    what moves are suitable to dance to different types of music
    I dance almost all my moves to almost all styles/tempo of music. The exception is omitting the complex moves from fast tempo.
    I have never come across "don't do this" in any of Franck's classes/workshops with regard to dance style to suit music genre.

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    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    where do you learn this. I've not bumped into it in a workshop, yet. So, only by practicing on the dance floor.
    Thinking about it, this is another area where I am particularly weak.
    Like other people have said; Franck does teach workshops that cover these things. I also know that a lot of ceroc teachers do say in their classes that 'this move might not be the best for very fast tracks' etc, but I think most people don't pay attention to this/don't hear it...

    Also, with experience (and by applying a bit of common sense) you will learn what moves are suitable for different types of music. For example, doing a double-handed-neck-breaker-pretzely-straightjacket-with-a-half-nelson-underarm-duck (or whatever) might not be so sensible to a track like 'Candyman', as you will be in great danger of ripping your partner's arms off. And you'll learn that you should adapt your moves and tension to the speed of the music: the faster the track, the simpler and clearer the moves and the lead should be. Trying to dance to a really fast track with a man with noodle arms is just painful, no matter how much I try to compensate by taking smaller steps and keeping my arms short.

    if 70% of his moves are going wrong then he's bound to be at a loss to know why.
    Brave of him to put himself above the parapet and ask "how do I make myself better".
    So, he's here now and where to next?

    BTW,
    we are not here to teach him to be eloquent and he didn't ask. But we can try to help with his dancing. Did you offer last night when you met up with him.
    What I have commented on is basically his awful attitude that comes across when he says things like 'I won't tailor the dance to there level' and 'I think that would make for a fairly poor dance and hopefully that would be a bit of a wake up call for them to either A) find someone easier to dance with or B) actually learn how to follow properly. Either way would be a win win situation for me' Good for him to want to improve his dancing, but this is not the way to do it - or to make yourself very popular in the dance world!

    Also - I am not trying to teach him to be eloquent, I'm commenting on his selfish attitude that has come across in his posts on this thread. And no, I didn't offer to help with his dancing last night, as a) he didn't ask me for any feedback or help, b) It was a freestyle night, and I was there to dance and enjoy myself, not to give private classes, and c) after reading his first post on this thread I was almost tempted to turn his request for a dance down with a scathing comment, but decided that would just be immature and petty. Our dance was perfectly fine, I smiled, said thank you, and left the dance floor at the end of the track. Should I have stopped and given a detailed analyzis of his dancing? Wouldn't that be terribly patronizing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I dance almost all my moves to almost all styles/tempo of music. The exception is omitting the complex moves from fast tempo.
    I have never come across "don't do this" in any of Franck's classes/workshops with regard to dance style to suit music genre.
    Omitting complex moves from faster tracks is a good beginning of how to adapt your dancing to the music, so well done. We had a very nice dance to a faster track last night.

    I have frequently heard teachers say 'don't attempt this move to a fast track, you might injure the lady' or 'this is a great move for slower tracks' etc.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    DundeeDancer, like Pretzel Meister I've not looked at the detail of all of the replies – just doing a bit of reading on the forum after a night out and I was just intrigued that anyone thinks they might be able to improve their dancing ability by being selfish. Some of your statements really beggar belief and I’m not at all surprised at the tone of the responses.

    You don’t say how long you’ve been dancing and seem to carefully avoid mentioning what your own assessment of your own standard is – probably better than ‘poor intermediate’ whatever that means - so it’s hard to equate what the want-it-now statement means. However good dancers are not born overnight, and they are certainly not made by leaving a trail of used and discarded partners at venues. If you do choose to take the approach you mention in the opening post can you let the Forum know which venue you’re using, I for one would need to be careful that my wife was not one of the ladies sacrificed to your improvement plans, selfish or otherwise.

    Dancing is about interaction. A good dance leaves both partners walking off the floor wanting to repeat the experience. Any lead is simply an invitation to a lady to follow a sequence of moves that becomes a dance. It’s a bit like conversation, try to control and dominate and you’ll find that some [most] people simply stop talking to you. Sometimes the conversation takes a direction you didn’t think it would but that is life. Dancing is exactly the same, especially with the better lady dancers who need to be given the space to stamp their own interpretation on the dance every bit as much as the ‘lead’ does.

    Another small hint, there is nothing that pisses a partner off more than being used in fresstyle to refine the so called lead’s technique - repeating moves until the lady gets it is arrogant. If you are an instructor, and within the confines of a class then teaching is fine, but in freestyle the lady has the right to expect that what the two of you are doing is engaging in a social activity, one in which she expects to get some enjoyment.

    Good dancing with is not about packing 4 minutes with a set of complex moves that you control. Half a dozen beginner moves danced with interpretation and connection with your partner are better than ten times that many imposed on them. I remember one of my first Southport Weekenders watching with envy how Pretzel Meister tailored his degree of complexity with ease to suit the partner of the moment. He always left the floor with a smile on his face and so did every one of the ladies.

    I teach at a small independent down south and often have to pick up the pieces of guys telling ladies that they can’t follow, that is if these ‘poor followers’ come back to the venue ever again. In almost all of those cases I have not found that I’m challenged in leading these apparently hapless individuals, quite the reverse. I always tell the ladies that any failure to execute a move in the way I’d originally envisaged it is entirely down to my inability to lead it and by extension the poor lead that put them down in the first place. Humility is another quality that makes a good dancer.

    So, my advice is to lose the idea that you can simply play fast and loose with other people in such a cavalier fashion. Otherwise as Little Monkey implies your reputation could very soon be such that no-one other than complete beginners will dance with you because your are highly likely to have nothing to offer them......

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    Wink Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Thanks for all the insightful comments on here, they ready add fuel to my fire on how I feel about things.

    I have never given or plan on giving a beginner/poor intermediate an unpleasant dance.
    I only suggested that to stir up some emotion and debate on the subject of ways and methods for dancers to improve in class and to highlight the ways if we choose to be selfish then we will all be worse off for it but if we all choose to be a more unselfish then we all stand to have much more to gain.

    I have had these thoughts tucked away in the back of my head for a good little while now and have just been to lazy to put them down on the forum but my frustrations with Tuesdays class spurred me on.

    Followers never being told in class what their role is during class/freestyle.

    I've never heard the teacher give a little speech on how followers should just relax and wait for an obvious lead. I think if the teacher just repeating this every couple of weeks this would give the followers so much more confidence. So often especially when in class and I don't know the move I may pause for a split second and before I know it my partner has panicked and spun in some direction in the hope they are doing the right thing, most of the time they guess wrong, I smile and think maybe next time.

    If the teacher told followers to wait for obvious leads in class then it would save me the effort of explaining it to the 15 or so followers after the class that seem to panic and try to spin out of my arm jive tea pot walk around, when all I want them to do a chill out for a second then take a few steps in a circle. I always feel I'm wasting my breath as I don't have the authority of a teacher or taxi dancer so these helpful comments I give seem to be ignored and the same followers make the same type mistakes with me the next week.

    No doubt someone on here will try to argue that I should have given a special lead to that follower who couldn't follow my perfectly good lead but on class night I don't think I should be compensating that much for them, party nights certainly.

    So here I am in class with all these below par followers because they are all there to learn the moves so they become better dancers, they do this because they don't read the forum and the teachers have not told them they only need to learn a few signals and how to follow a lead.

    So I'm trying to figure out all these half taught new moves with all this mayhem going on and I'm thinking to myself where are all the good followers? Oh yeah they have learned they don't need to learn the moves and if they come after class it's cheaper just to do the freestyle.

    Occasionally the good followers will pay a little extra just to come to class so they can socialise in line before freestyle and the loud music starts.

    In fact this happened to me on Tuesday during the last walk through of the class I got paired with an excellent experienced follower, I thought yes I've struck gold. What were her first words when the teacher said "You're into freestyle now", follower "Glad that's over, lets just dance now." Needless to say I was to polite and too unselfish to suggest that we might just run through that nights moves just once more in some vain hope I might get something out the class.

    As I seem to be a well known patience and considerate dancer, my next 7 to 8 dances were with followers who struggled with that nights First Move Barrier turn, I didn't think it fair to inflict the more complex 2nd and 3rd moves on them. On the 9th dance I did get asked by another superb follower but she hadn't done the class so didn't seem to interested in going through that's nights moves but tolerated me fumbling with the new moves for a little while before completing the second half of the dance with my honed favourites.

    Good idea if we had more experienced followers attending class.

    I think this would help greatly to if they pass on there knowledge to less experienced dancers. Sure this might mean the 10 ladies over might grow to 30 or 40 ladies over but is that really a problem if it is explained that followers don't need to learn the moves? I think this would really help things.
    Leads would get more reliable followers in class to practice with.
    Followers would not know the moves as well so would hopefully learn quicker to follow a lead and not what the teacher is doing.

    How could we incentive the more experienced dancers to go to class.

    Well one idea might be that if a person has attended 100 classes they become a Ceroc Gold Card member. You would hope after 100 classes you would have some valuable knowledge to pass on to newbie's.

    With this Gold card ladies could get to come to the intermediate class for say £2 off normal price and maybe gold card guys could get a £1 off entry if they attend beginners class so helping new followers.

    When I was going through my 7-8 under par dances on Tuesday night I was thinking there something not right here as I know by looking around that as a total of the followers in the room I would consider at least 60% of them to be of level good enough to handle anything I should choose to throw at them. So how's it that I am I managing to tap into the other 40% 8 times in a row, that's statistically not right, check my back for "Unofficial Intermediate Taxi Dancer" sign, nope nothing there.

    Hhhmmm could it be most of the good leads and followers were dancing in their little cliques all night?
    Felt like it was only me and my good man Dep who are working the room to make sure everyone else is having a good night.

    Well as they say you only get out what you put in so I have to laugh at what I experienced at the MJ party last night here in Edinburgh.

    Great dancers from all over Scotland but the numbers were roughly 40/60 leads to followers. I'm just so bored with my dancing that I really just went along to socialise, I think out of the 25 dances or so I managed I actually only asked for 5 of them. A few people came asked me if I was DundeeDancer and if I wanted a dance, I thought that was interesting.

    Was speaking to an X Senior Blackpool champion at one point and she asked me to dance and I said "Yeah sure, but my moves aren't up to much", she seemed to enjoy stretching her legs though.

    Another follower asked me up and it was a funny track, I just went through my usual moves best I could and nearer the end she commented "God is this track the longest in history?", I just smiled and thought, well if you helped me a little bit more on class nights you might not well feel that way now.

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    Registered User Feelingpink's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ... Followers never being told in class what their role is during class/freestyle.[/B]I've never heard the teacher give a little speech on how followers should just relax and wait for an obvious lead.
    So you have a choice: you can wander around blaming the teachers & followers & everyone else in the world, generally playing the martyr card or you can do something about it yourself. There are several leaders who would completely stop if I ever backlead a move and would ask that I gave them time to lead. You could do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    No doubt someone on here will try to argue that I should have given a special lead to that follower who couldn't follow my perfectly good lead but on class night I don't think I should be compensating that much for them, party nights certainly.
    Why do you see class nights & freestyles so differently? And you are the one here defining your 'perfectly good lead'. To play devil's advocate here, if it is so good, then why are so many people not following?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    So here I am in class with all these below par followers because they are all there to learn the moves so they become better dancers, they do this because they don't read the forum and the teachers have not told them they only need to learn a few signals and how to follow a lead.
    So what do YOU think you could do to change your experience? Do you want to continue going to this class?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    In fact this happened to me on Tuesday during the last walk through of the class I got paired with an excellent experienced follower, I thought yes I've struck gold. What were her first words when the teacher said "You're into freestyle now", follower "Glad that's over, lets just dance now." Needless to say I was to polite and too unselfish to suggest that we might just run through that nights moves just once more in some vain hope I might get something out the class.
    Could you behave any more like a martyr and a victim here? The class was over - deal with it. What else were you expecting out of the class? Was there a move that you didn't get? If so, why not ask the teacher or a taxi dancer after the class? As LBD says, a follower doesn't always like a class moves and may not want to go through them again.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post

    Good idea if we had more experienced followers attending class.

    I think this would help greatly to if they pass on there knowledge to less experienced dancers. Sure this might mean the 10 ladies over might grow to 30 or 40 ladies over but is that really a problem if it is explained that followers don't need to learn the moves? I think this would really help things.
    Leads would get more reliable followers in class to practice with.
    Followers would not know the moves as well so would hopefully learn quicker to follow a lead and not what the teacher is doing.
    Now would seem to be an ideal time for you to be a follower for the beginner class. Let me explain: it is as boring as f*** being one of 10+ women over in a class where there is no challenge. You want me to turn up early to, say, do the beginners' class and spend about 45 minutes of my time doing something that bores me rigid - probably 20 minutes of queueing included and I'm also told I won't have to worry my pretty little head about moves. Er, no, ain't gonna happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    When I was going through my 7-8 under par dances on Tuesday night I was thinking there something not right here as I know by looking around that as a total of the followers in the room I would consider at least 60% of them to be of level good enough to handle anything I should choose to throw at them. So how's it that I am I managing to tap into the other 40% 8 times in a row, that's statistically not right, check my back for "Unofficial Intermediate Taxi Dancer" sign, nope nothing there.
    They're avoiding you?
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Another follower asked me up and it was a funny track, I just went through my usual moves best I could and nearer the end she commented "God is this track the longest in history?", I just smiled and thought, well if you helped me a little bit more on class nights you might not well feel that way now.
    Perhaps she simply didn't like the track?

    The whole tone of your last post is very much 'woe is me'. In this thread, you've been given some great advice from some great & experienced leaders & followers. You've chosen to pretty much ignore what they've said & just complain about how no-one is doing what you want. If there is just one piece of advice you might want to take on board, perhaps it's Gandhi's "Be the change you want to see in the world".

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer
    Hhhmmm could it be most of the good leads and followers were dancing in their little cliques all night?
    Felt like it was only me and my good man Dep who are working the room to make sure everyone else is having a good night.

    Well as they say you only get out what you put in so I have to laugh at what I experienced at the MJ party last night here in Edinburgh.

    Great dancers from all over Scotland but the numbers were roughly 40/60 leads to followers. I'm just so bored with my dancing that I really just went along to socialise, I think out of the 25 dances or so I managed I actually only asked for 5 of them. A few people came asked me if I was DundeeDancer and if I wanted a dance, I thought that was interesting.

    Was speaking to an X Senior Blackpool champion at one point and she asked me to dance and I said "Yeah sure, but my moves aren't up to much", she seemed to enjoy stretching her legs though.

    Another follower asked me up and it was a funny track, I just went through my usual moves best I could and nearer the end she commented "God is this track the longest in history?", I just smiled and thought, well if you helped me a little bit more on class nights you might not well feel that way now.
    Could only be Red Hot & Blues you are talking about. I didn't sense any form of clique behaviour at all. I was on my own having left my wife down south for the week - on arrival I maybe knew 3-4 ladies but never sat down between 21:00 and 01:00 and that would have been impossible had there been cliques. I spent the night floating in and out of groups dancing with a large variety of ladies, some of whom I asked and some of whom approached me.

    Even if there is a clique, the way to break it down is to dance with one of the ladies and make sure that the experience is so good that she goes back to the table and tells her friends - you rapidly find that you become included in the group. I travel round the country on business and rarely do I find any problem in spending the whole night on the floor - hopefully this is because I aim to make my partners feel good every time I dance and not desperation because men are always outnumbered by the women!

    There is some good advice on this thread - especially from the ladies. No-one wants to discourage guys because at most venues they are in short supply so I advise you to read carefully what the girls have said. Whenever you get up to dance with a partner focus on making it the best experience in 4 minutes that she has had all night, your dancing will improve because you'll learn about connection (you can't lead anything without it) and you'll get much more back from the ladies in return
    Last edited by ducasi; 23rd-March-2008 at 12:44 PM. Reason: fixed quoting

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agente Secreto View Post
    Whenever you .....dance with a partner focus on making it the best experience in 4 minutes that she has had all night, ............and you'll get much more back from the ladies in return

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Thanks for all the insightful comments on here, they ready add fuel to my fire on how I feel about things.

    I have never given or plan on giving a beginner/poor intermediate an unpleasant dance.
    I only suggested that to stir up some emotion and debate on the subject of ways and methods for dancers to improve in class and to highlight the ways if we choose to be selfish then we will all be worse off for it but if we all choose to be a more unselfish then we all stand to have much more to gain.
    I am answering as a follower so feel free to ignore my post but even though I still go to classes when I can (no transport of my own makes it trickier these days) I don't see the actual classes as the way to improve my dancing. I may be alone in this thought or it might apply more to followers than to leaders. When I first started learning, yes, it was explained to me that it was a lead and follow dance and my part in that was to follow. Lessons taught me the basics but it was the freestyle after the lesson, the party freestyles I attended - often having to travel with friends to find different standards of dancers - and the weekenders I went on (and some workshops whilst there) and a few WCS lessons that really improved my dancing. I would say that rather than being selfish, (I will happily dance with anyone and everyone - and unless they hurt me or insult me then I enjoy every dance regardless of ability) to really improve your dancing you need to be more proactive. It sounds to me (and forgive me if I have misunderstood you ) that you desire to become some sort of moves monster. Maybe it is different for a follower but my favourite dancers aren't those that do hundreds of moves in a dance, it's those that move to the music, those that express little things they hear in the music or the lyric through their movements, those that let me dance a little rather than just throwing me into move after move or drop after drop. My favourites are the dancers who play with the music and give me an appreciative smile when I try to copy playful things they are doing or vice versa and they take on little things I might do. For me that is a fun dance that we've both created and that is dancer that I would ask again.

    So as a follower I tried to improve my dancing my proactively attending freestyles or worskhops where there is a higher standard and asking those who IMO are of a higher standard than me to dance and trying to follow them. When I danced with people who used a lot of musicality I have tried to copy that and it now feel more natural to me and I am more confident in my dancing whoever I dance with. If I dance with beginners I won't express myself as much as I would with a more experienced dancer but I will still try to give them a good dance and more, importantly follow, what they are leading and try to support and encourage them (with a smile/through copying etc) if they are trying to be bit more playful in a dance.

    Some men and women may go to a class/freestyle mainly for the social aspect of the night rather than the dancing and they may see it as dancing their "steps" rather than leading and following. Sometimes in a class men don't lead (not confident, don't know the move yet) so a lady may help them out and dance the move for them - if this happens often enough then the man is not leading but thinks he is and the lady is dancing but not following - both partners may struggle when it comes to dancing with someone else who is a LEADER or a FOLLOWER.

    I like to think that I have improved in my following in the years that I have been dancing but there are always times when you dance with someone and it's not quite worked. I wouldn't automatically assume that the person I danced with was a bad lead just that I couldn't follow him or I couldn't follow him yet (maybe I haven't adapted to his style or something) If I enjoyed the dance though I would seek that dancer out again and work on improving my following of HIS lead. I would hope that the leader would think I didn't quite lead everything clearly enough for that follower yet and would do his part and work on adapting his lead for me.

    Dancing is a partnership, a conversation not a battle, or a carefully laid out plan - and it should be fun. If you stop giving out fun or friendly vibes then you will IMHO start losing partners to dance with and will find it even harder to improve.

    Oopps - lots of waffle - fingers crossed there is at least one point in this haha

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Felt like it was only me and my good man Dep who are working the room to make sure everyone else is having a good night.

    I'm just so bored with my dancing that I really just went along to socialise, I think out of the 25 dances or so I managed I actually only asked for 5 of them.
    Are these comments all relating to R H & B? If so, how does asking 5 people to dance in the space of several hours qualify as 'working the room to make sure everyone else is having a good night'?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Hhhmmm could it be most of the good leads and followers were dancing in their little cliques all night?
    I don't know a lot of people on the scene and haven't been going to freestyles for a long time but I generally find them friendly and welcoming. I was apprehensive about going to R H & B because I knew there would be so many dancers at a better level than me but I found it to be one of the most relaxed and friendly events I have been to. I didn't see cliques. I saw groups of people who know each other, happy to chat to each other, happy to dance with each other but open to new people joining in too.

    Could it be that you were sitting at the furthest corner of the room not looking as if you wanted to dance and join in?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    A few people came asked me if I was DundeeDancer and if I wanted a dance, I thought that was interesting.
    What was interesting about it? Sounds as if you're reading something into that.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Followers never being told in class what their role is during class/freestyle.
    I agree that this would help, and wish it were done more often, preferably by the taxi dancers in the beginners review class. You seem to be talking about intermediate classes, and by the time the follows get there, they should really know this. But what's stopping you telling them? Do it nicely - try "it would really help me if you could slow down a bit as I'm not getting how to lead this properly". But are you able to do this, as it means taking responsbility for your lead? And in all your other posts, you've been laying the responsbility firmly at everyone else's feet

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Good idea if we had more experienced followers attending class.

    Sure this might mean the 10 ladies over might grow to 30 or 40 ladies over but is that really a problem if it is explained that followers don't need to learn the moves? I think this would really help things.
    Leads would get more reliable followers in class to practice with.
    Followers would not know the moves as well so would hopefully learn quicker to follow a lead and not what the teacher is doing.
    Did you not read what everyone else has written about leading follows of various abilities? In class as much as freestyle?

    If you only/mostly lead follows who are experienced, they will compensate for your poor lead, and you'll never improve!

    And whilst most women/follows would dearly love to see more men dancing, do you have any idea how awful it is being manhandled, often quite roughly, by nervous men who don't have a clue what they are doing?! And you are suggesting that we spend half the class just standing there waiting for this?

    And why do you assume that the experienced follows would not know the moves? Of course we do. We may not know the names, or how to lead them, but we do recognise elements of many of them. Again, you're showing your arrogance here.

    And it would take a lot more than the offer of a couple of quid off a night's dancing to entice these follows you seek to give up half their evening for this sort of experience...

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    When I was going through my 7-8 under par dances on Tuesday night I was thinking there something not right here as I know by looking around that as a total of the followers in the room I would consider at least 60% of them to be of level good enough to handle anything I should choose to throw at them. So how's it that I am I managing to tap into the other 40% 8 times in a row, that's statistically not right,
    You've answered your own question here. Seems that most of the other leads in your class don't have a problem with these "poor follows".

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    So you have a choice: you can wander around blaming the teachers & followers & everyone else in the world, generally playing the martyr card or you can do something about it yourself.

    *snip*

    So what do YOU think you could do to change your experience? Do you want to continue going to this class?

    Could you behave any more like a martyr and a victim here?

    Now would seem to be an ideal time for you to be a follower for the beginner class. Let me explain: it is as boring as f*** being one of 10+ women over in a class where there is no challenge. You want me to turn up early to, say, do the beginners' class and spend about 45 minutes of my time doing something that bores me rigid - probably 20 minutes of queueing included and I'm also told I won't have to worry my pretty little head about moves. Er, no, ain't gonna happen.


    They're avoiding you?

    The whole tone of your last post is very much 'woe is me'. In this thread, you've been given some great advice from some great & experienced leaders & followers. You've chosen to pretty much ignore what they've said & just complain about how no-one is doing what you want. If there is just one piece of advice you might want to take on board, perhaps it's Gandhi's "Be the change you want to see in the world".
    to the whole post

    DD - listen up, learn from the experienced leads and follows on here and stop this arrogant, self-indulgent whinging.

  18. #58
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    ...And whilst most women/follows would dearly love to see more men dancing, do you have any idea how awful it is being manhandled, often quite roughly, by nervous men who don't have a clue what they are doing?! And you are suggesting that we spend half the class just standing there waiting for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    ...
    Now would seem to be an ideal time for you to be a follower for the beginner class. Let me explain: it is as boring as f*** being one of 10+ women over in a class where there is no challenge. You want me to turn up early to, say, do the beginners' class and spend about 45 minutes of my time doing something that bores me rigid - probably 20 minutes of queueing included and I'm also told I won't have to worry my pretty little head about moves. Er, no, ain't gonna happen.
    ...
    Followers act to a degree in their own interests, rightly or wrongly.

    Yet when DundeeDancer brings up the possibility of doing the same.
    He gets quite a lot of this type of thing:-

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    ...and stop this arrogant, self-indulgent whinging.
    DundeeDancer raises some significant issues which currently have sparse coverage within this forum.

    It would be nice to see more of a focus on addressing of the issues raised.

  19. #59
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I have never given or plan on giving a beginner/poor intermediate an unpleasant dance.
    I only suggested that to stir up some emotion and debate on the subject
    As excuses go, this isn't quite in the same league as "I was doing it for a research project", but it's pretty close. It has about the same effect on your credibility, too.

    I did have a long reply written, but upon rereading it I don't think posting it will be helpful so I think I'll follow LM's advice and bite my tongue at this point.

    What I will say is that I do genuinely and seriously think you may end up getting a very bad reputation if you go on like this. It's clear many regulars are already talking about you and your attitude. You'd be surprised how quickly that kind of thing can spread.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Followers act to a degree in their own interests, rightly or wrongly.
    What are you basing this comment on?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Yet when DundeeDancer brings up the possibility of doing the same.
    He gets quite a lot of this type of thing:-

    DundeeDancer raises some significant issues which currently have sparse coverage within this forum.

    It would be nice to see more of a focus on addressing of the issues raised.
    This thread has now had 58 replies, the majority of which have tried to address the issues raised in a thoughtful, detailed and constructive manner (I note you have yet to address the question raised. Will you enlighten us soon?) Perhaps post 51 has given the impression that DD is not interested in the advice received and perhaps some forumites have lost patience, leading to a little of 'this type of thing'.

    FWIW I met DD over the weekend, before reading this thread, and found him to be a decent bloke and enjoyed dancing with him. I hope he doesn't end up with a bad reputation over things he's posted on the forum.

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