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Thread: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

  1. #21
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    In my childhood I used to do some karate, we’d all train together but when it came to freestyle which is a lot like freestyle at Ceroc, the karate people would only pair up people of similar grades. White belts and yellow belts would dance/fight whatever you want to call it, Blues and Purples, Browns and Blacks.

    If a yellow belt was paired against blue belt say then it just wasn’t a fair match, The yellow belt would be out the ring before they knew it had even started and the blue belt had not been challenged in any way so had made no progress.
    But dancing isn't normally considered a combat sport. You're not supposed to be competing against your partner. You're also no longer a child, so should be able to rise above "I'm going to show you up - because I can".

    No what I’m taking about here is giving more challenging dances to “poor intermediates”. They way I see it they will either think, I’m being challenged here and I’ll need to pull my socks up or they will think dancing with him is to much like hard work. I won’t bother dancing with him unless I’m really desperate.
    Ten to one says it's the latter. And it would be more accurate still if you replaced it by "they will think I'm a rubbish lead".

    Possibly, but surprisingly none of the more advance dancers on here are making comment yet so I’m starting to think maybe it is an approach they are already using but don’t want to talk about it.
    As you've opened this can on worms...

    I've been holding back on commenting because although I strongly suspect 95% of the technical problems are on your side, that's an unproveable assumption over the internet. Given your handle and location, I've been hoping there are knowledgeable forumites who've actually danced with you who would comment.

    Speaking personally I can't say I ever use the strategy you describe. Instead I do my best to make the dance work with every follower. Like every experienced lead, it's something I'm still working on.

    The only time I might do something similar to you is if faced with a follower who seems to think she's the greatest thing since sliced bread - and even there it's more intended to make her think "OK, maybe this guy does know what he's doing - I should pay attention" rather than to actively make her feel bad. But it's been several years since I've even been that petty.

    What’s the point of having an intermediate class if no one is going to learn from it then?
    Learning from an intermediate class (or any group class) is going to be incredibly hit and miss compared with a private lesson. Most obviously, a private lesson actually gives you feedback from someone who (hopefully) can tell what you're doing wrong. And everybody is doing something wrong. That's why even world champion dancers have coaches.

    Yeah that’s why I’m not thinking of refusing them a dance but giving them a challenging dance. One when they will walk away knowing they’ve not followed that well to moves that should be within there ability as they are stuck in a beginners rut.
    Well, at least you're honest about what you're doing. But I think you're going to find yourself getting a very bad reputation very quickly with that attitude.

    Next time you are at freestyle notice how many of the better dancers don’t go to the edges of the dance hall but just call over to someone they know to come dance with them. (This forum is like the Matrix, once you take the pill you see the real reality, try not to shoot the messenger.)
    Just because better dancers seek each other out doesn't mean they don't also dance with beginners and intermediates. And it certainly doesn't mean they try to give the beginners and intermediates a bad dance.

  2. #22
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Speaking personally I can't say I ever use the strategy you describe. Instead I do my best to make the dance work with every follower. Like every experienced lead, it's something I'm still working on.
    Thanks for taking the time to Answer David

    By your own admission though you cannot say whether my suggested approach would work or not as you've never tried it out.

    Just to recap the approach I'm thinking of trying is to:-

    Ask good followers to dance with me as much as possible and to ask them for comments and advice on my lead and try to understand how to improve.

    If during class nights (not party nights, they are special nights) when a poor intermediates asks to dance with me I'll accept kindly but I'll signpost I want a "challenging dance" by saying something like, "Sure if your up for running through the class we had tonight?".

    Then they can back out or we can dance and then hopefully both of us will be stretch and hopefully improve a little.

    It's about challenging and improving myself which may mean challenging others if they are up for it.

    Dance partners with a positive attitude should only feel slight frustration for self improvement.

    Other can go on there negative spiral if they want but as long as I'm open and honest about what I'm doing then I'll have nothing to feel guilty about. That's what I reckon but we'll see in practice won't we.

    So has anyone else actually took this path and have any real lesson learnt from it.

    Or does every other cerocer just dance to please there partners.

    Thanks DD.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    So it seems if I lead a reasonable lead for such a move on a half decent follower they will do the move fine, I will feel good I've done a new move and that I only have to fine tune it to include it in my routine.

    On the other hand the other 70% of followers I seem to be dancing with these days are just getting me in tangles and I am starting to find it frustrating.
    Little note on this one - my other half and I were at a fairly advanced workshop a few weeks back, and I was finding it a frustrating experience at times, because most of the follows were self-leading. I came out feeling that there were really nice moves in there which I didn't know whether or not I could lead - because I hadn't really had the chance to try - some of these moves involved very subtle leads, and they were very hard. Anyway there was an ... exchange ... between my partner (who, in these workshops, takes a hard-line "if they don't lead it, don't do it" approach ) and a gentleman who's lead was pretty much non-existent.

    He's doing this move without giving her any lead at all.
    So she just stands there.
    "Why aren't you doing the move?" says he.
    "I need you to lead me" says she.
    "All the other girls can follow me just fine!" he says...

    Wonder if he's ever managed to freestyle the move? And I wonder who he blames for that...

  4. #24
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Or does every other cerocer just dance to please there partners.
    I try...

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    surprisingly none of the more advance dancers on here are making comment yet so I’m starting to think maybe it is an approach they are already using but don’t want to talk about it.
    Ummmm..... no

    No-one leads or follows perfectly. It takes time to learn - especially leading. It has taken me 22 years, and I'm still learning. If it was easy then everyone would be a lot better.

    Lead & follow is a reasonably simple language that we use to do complicated things. It has several elements (connection, momentum, flashlighting & shaping etc), and different leaders will combine these elements in different ways. An individual leader might make subtly changes to lead different things, but other leaders can lead the same move in completely different ways. There is no single right way but there are several wrong ways, and the ladies have to cope with all of them.

    Also no matter how much leaders kid themselves that everything is pure lead & follow, there are lots of things that followers have to do to make some moves work. These might be conscious decisions, muscle memory, or just by accident.

    A few tips.
    • Never deliberately give somebody a bad dance. I know a lot of men that ladies avoid, and you don't want to join the list. (It is surprisingly easy to join.)
    • If the lady doesn't do what you expected, then don't assume it is her fault, even if other ladies can follow that move. You will learn far more by figuring out how to lead that one lady than comparing her to the others.
    • Don't place any conditions on accepting an invitation to dance. Many ladies don't like asking, and only do it because otherwise they wouldn't dance all night. It is a privilege to be asked, not a right.
    • And the biggest tip - you have an advantage in Scotland of one of the best teachers of technique in Ceroc (Franck). If you really want to get good, then go to his workshops. He can teach you the technique, but how you apply it is up to you.

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    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Ummmm..... no

    No-one leads or follows perfectly. It takes time to learn - especially leading. It has taken me 22 years, and I'm still learning. If it was easy then everyone would be a lot better.

    Lead & follow is a reasonably simple language that we use to do complicated things. It has several elements (connection, momentum, flashlighting & shaping etc), and different leaders will combine these elements in different ways. An individual leader might make subtly changes to lead different things, but other leaders can lead the same move in completely different ways. There is no single right way but there are several wrong ways, and the ladies have to cope with all of them.

    Also no matter how much leaders kid themselves that everything is pure lead & follow, there are lots of things that followers have to do to make some moves work. These might be conscious decisions, muscle memory, or just by accident.

    A few tips.
    • Never deliberately give somebody a bad dance. I know a lot of men that ladies avoid, and you don't want to join the list. (It is surprisingly easy to join.)
    • If the lady doesn't do what you expected, then don't assume it is her fault, even if other ladies can follow that move. You will learn far more by figuring out how to lead that one lady than comparing her to the others.
    • Don't place any conditions on accepting an invitation to dance. Many ladies don't like asking, and only do it because otherwise they wouldn't dance all night. It is a privilege to be asked, not a right.
    • And the biggest tip - you have an advantage in Scotland of one of the best teachers of technique in Ceroc (Franck). If you really want to get good, then go to his workshops. He can teach you the technique, but how you apply it is up to you.

  7. #27
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to Answer David

    By your own admission though you cannot say whether my suggested approach would work or not as you've never tried it out.
    Nonsense. I've seen men use your approach - I've also heard followers talk about them. Let's just say that hearing that feedback is a very strong incentive to never use your approach. I've also had follows do the equivalent, and certainly my usual reaction as a lead is to try to avoid dancing with them again.

    You seem to think your approach will "filter" the people you dance with, in a "shape up or ship out" kind of manner. From experience (again, both from what followers tell me and what I do if someone makes it clear they don't think I'm "up to it"), it isn't going to turn out that way. In simple terms, it's not the better dancers who are going to put up with you behaving like this. They have lots of other options. The people who will put up with you will be those who think it's worth it to have a dance with someone so much better than them. That is, the beginners you want to avoid. (Of course, in the MJ culture, most people will still dance with you even if they don't want to. I don't think that's a position you want to be in, though).

    Just to recap the approach I'm thinking of trying is to:-

    If during class nights (not party nights, they are special nights) when a poor intermediates asks to dance with me I'll accept kindly but I'll signpost I want a "challenging dance" by saying something like, "Sure if your up for running through the class we had tonight?".
    Wow. Just wow.

    So has anyone else actually took this path and have any real lesson learnt from it.
    The lesson to learn is that people will think you're an a***hole. Seriously. Which can start feeling uncomfortable even in the politeness of a MJ environment. In one extreme case I know of, the person stopped going about two weeks before he was going to be banned anyhow - the venue manager had had enough of hearing follows complain about him. (Though there were other issues to do with personal space as well).

    Edit: and to everything DavidB said...

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Ummmm..... no

    No-one leads or follows perfectly. It takes time to learn - especially leading. It has taken me 22 years, and I'm still learning. If it was easy then everyone would be a lot better.

    Lead & follow is a reasonably simple language that we use to do complicated things. It has several elements (connection, momentum, flashlighting & shaping etc), and different leaders will combine these elements in different ways. An individual leader might make subtly changes to lead different things, but other leaders can lead the same move in completely different ways. There is no single right way but there are several wrong ways, and the ladies have to cope with all of them.

    Also no matter how much leaders kid themselves that everything is pure lead & follow, there are lots of things that followers have to do to make some moves work. These might be conscious decisions, muscle memory, or just by accident.

    A few tips.
    • Never deliberately give somebody a bad dance. I know a lot of men that ladies avoid, and you don't want to join the list. (It is surprisingly easy to join.)
    • If the lady doesn't do what you expected, then don't assume it is her fault, even if other ladies can follow that move. You will learn far more by figuring out how to lead that one lady than comparing her to the others.
    • Don't place any conditions on accepting an invitation to dance. Many ladies don't like asking, and only do it because otherwise they wouldn't dance all night. It is a privilege to be asked, not a right.
    • And the biggest tip - you have an advantage in Scotland of one of the best teachers of technique in Ceroc (Franck). If you really want to get good, then go to his workshops. He can teach you the technique, but how you apply it is up to you.
    Completely agree with all of that (apart from Franck's workshops - never been to Scotland).

    But as DD says, if no one's tried his strategy, then no one can say for sure that it's doomed to failure. What we can do is make fairly good guesses, and my guess for what it's worth, is that it won't work:

    The good followers are probably going to quickly get sick of you experimenting and perfecting your dancing on them, when they could be dancing with better leaders. So theýre going to start avoiding you, or accepting with conditions like "yeah sure I'll dance with you, but only if you can hit at least 97% of the breaks in this song". So you'll be left with no poor followers wanting to dance with you because you've been an arse to them, and no good followers wanting to dance with you because you see them as more of a "training aid" than a dance partner.

    Be careful.

    Dan

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    Registered User Little Black Dress's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    If during class nights (not party nights, they are special nights) when a poor intermediates asks to dance with me I'll accept kindly but I'll signpost I want a "challenging dance" by saying something like, "Sure if your up for running through the class we had tonight?".
    Ok, as one of your regular partners, you have asked me this question on a number of occasions. Quite often I say "Not really" because I haven't liked/enjoyed the moves or thought that they didn't flow well, not because I haven't felt like a challenge. I am always up for a challenge and look to improve my following as I tend to start taking over and back leading (bad habit). So, what I'm trying to improve on is my ability to interpret a leader's lead.

    I could tell quite a few stories about different leaders who have automatically blamed me for the mistakes they've made. Or who have taken it upon themselves to go through particularly horrible (by that I mean awkward, loads of tangly arms and twisting moves - just my opinion) which they obviously haven' t mastered yet but think they have. I always admit/ apologise when I feel I've made a mistake, so it's not that I think I'm anything wonderful.
    I'm not putting you into the above category as you always say if you're going to try a new move you're not sure about or ask if we can go through it again

    Or does every other cerocer just dance to please there partners.
    Part of dancing socially is about dancing to please your partners. It's meant to be fun!

    At the a party night recently I had some particularly disappointing dances with men who obviously thought they were intermediates and could try out complicated moves they hadn't quite mastered, then when the move didn't go quite as planned, because they were led badly, they decided to "walk me through it" again and say at the end things like, "I bet that gave you a thrill!" - Reminds of "Well done".....I'm never sure about what to do in these situations - it was a party night and I was there to enjoy myself, so I just smiled and parted at the end of the dance as I normally do. On a class night I may react differently and offer to go through the move again....
    At the same party, I had a couple of wonderful dances with beginner men. They weren't presumptious, they worked with the moves they knew and did them well, concentrating on timing, relaxing and leading. How refreshing! I'd dance with both of them again in a second. I also had some very wonderful dances with old and new experienced dancers, one of whom did some very thrilling moves which I'd never done before and said at the end that the dance was "brilliant" - that sent me off with a smile on my face, I can tell you!

    So, Scoobs, please don't stop asking beginners for dances. You learn more about yourself from them. The more you can adapt, the better. Dancing isn't just about moves. Get to know the ones you know better. Although do, please, lose the in and out (especially with the chest push bit.....)
    Last edited by Little Black Dress; 20th-March-2008 at 01:53 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?



    When either David B or David F speak, I listen.

    I remember a time when I thought that most of my problems were down to bad followers, because when I danced with the best, everything I led worked.

    But as I have got better, I have learnt that more often than not the problems are my fault, and the best followers are just better at coping with my mistakes.

    I have taken a dual approach to solving this problem. Firstly, I have tried to improve my lead – dancing without prejudice with followers of all levels, and taking technique-based workshops have helped. Secondly, when I find a move that a wide range of followers can't follow when I lead it, I either try to adapt the move until it does work, or drop it from my repertoire. Dances are too short to worry about getting first move barriers to work.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ... At the last few classes the moves in the intermediate class haven't been that difficult to get a handle on what I'm roughly supposed to be doing.
    There's a difference between being able to 'do the steps' and a good lead and follow technique, also being aware of what can go wrong (elbows in the face, stepping on the follower's foot etc) and how to avoid that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    What I'm finding is that around 70% of the dancers I'm dancing with are generally making a bad job of following, that’s a whole different subject area as well.
    Really? If you were a better leader, then perhaps they would follow better. The best leaders I know seem to have the attitude that if I didn't follow something, it's because they didn't lead it well enough (even if it was my fault I missed something). They have spent years honing their technique so that - at a rough guess - more than 70% of followers will understand their lead ... and also guess that ANY woman at ANY level wants to dance with them. One of the joys of dancing with Amir, for example, is that if he leads a woman to turn 270 degrees and she only does 180, then he makes up for the difference so that she always feels good about her dancing. She doesn't get a 'tutting' and a patronising suggestion about 'running through the intermediate moves'.

    {snip}
    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I do think it's awful to reject someone offer of a dance so if anyone asks I will still accept but on class nights I won't tailor the dance to there level but try to practice the intermediate moves that have been taught that night or in the recent weeks. I have been finding that doing one or two basic moves then practicing an intermediate moves gives me best results.
    If you were a 'great' leader, then I would argue that most MJ moves are leadable, whether or not the follower knows the move or not - that is the point of leading. And yes, I accept that not all followers have a good frame or all the skills needed for following every move, but surely you could do better than 'beginner' moves and a few intermediate ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    For the beginners this basic move then intermediate move approach will be hard on them.
    *splutter* Why? If you're a 'great' leader, then I don't expect it would be difficult at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I would reckon that nearly ever attempt at the intermediate move would go wrong. I think that would make for a fairly poor dance and hopefully that would be a bit of a wake up call for them to either A) find someone easier to dance with or B) actually learn how to follow properly. Either way would be a win win situation for me.
    If you wear a T-shirt during the freestyle saying 'I'm only prepared to lead intermediate moves and above', then fair enough. But generally speaking, your partner is expecting a 'dance', rather than a contract of (your) dance improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I kinda feel like I'm turning over to the dark side on this and will probably be labelled as a hotshot but what else can I do if I want to progress at a steady pace?
    How about:
    - practise spins on your own (Chef has written some great posts on practising between plastic cups on the floor, while wearing his lab coat)
    - take up ballet or another dance form & see how it could improve your style & technique
    - get a practise partner, who has similar aims as you and practise together; have private lessons together
    - video your dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I may well try this approach out in just one venue to for a month or so just in case everyone start booing me when I enter the dance hall and everyone refuses to dance with me. At least that way I'd have an alternative to fall back on.
    I hope you realise that women talk, and if you behave like an arrogant idiot at one venue ... news will spread.

  12. #32
    Registered User PretzelMeister's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ...
    What I'm finding is that around 70% of the dancers I'm dancing with are generally making a bad job of following, that’s a whole different subject area as well.
    ...
    Hi Dundee Dancer,

    Haven't read all of the replies to your original post but think Ducasi's post just a couple above may be fairly relevant.

    At the next freestyle party you are at, remember some of the followers who you deem to be in the 'bad 70%', then try to take some time out to watch those same followers dance with more experienced leads.

    I don't know, but you may find the results quite interesting.......

    ...part of the skill of the social lead is to adapt their lead to the follower. Part of the skill of all leads is to lead well. On both accounts, as David B points out, there's always scope for all of us to continue to improve.

    Be careful not to alienate too many followers along the way - I don't know if it's something you have ever done or been tempted to do but a 'tut' is NEVER appreciated when a follow doesn't do what you'd like / expect them to.

    Hope this helps.


    PM

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    Taxi Dancer Aurion's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    In answer to your question the answer is definately "not at all!"
    As with all things in life you should avoid deliberately alienating anyone. In particular remember that a good proportion of these beginners will soon be fantastic dancers with long memories....

    Rather than focus inwards to improve yourself, look at relaxing more and don't get too technical!

    I've had a lot of people ask me over the years what I do to keep improving and to be honest I don't really know, at least I find it hard to explain. But always up for a challenge I'll try Apologies if it comes out a bit garbled I find it easier to do than talk about.



    I've seen a lot of people through the years reach this plateau and I think the mistake they all start making is to over-analyse what they are doing whereas in fact what they really need to do is start simplifying.
    I would recommend stop trying to think in terms of moves and more in terms of where you want your partner to be and then where you want to be in relation to them.

    For example rather than think "beginner first move into intermediate pretzel into beginner travelling return into advanced hedgehog star jump", start thinking "wrap into my right side into walk past on follows right side maybe change hands and pause to interesting space in music and start passing by on followers left side with my hand above their head".

    This allows you more time to think when dancing which means you can concentrate on connection with your partner and listen more to the music.
    I find this method works for me for all levels of followers, from first nighters all the way up through all the levels.

    The difference tends to come from me. I can do the same move but tend to move around a lot more compensating for the beginners yet with the move advanced leads I will hardly move as they are doing all their nice stylee stuff! However I learn a lot from both types.

    From the beginners I learn to feel how they are moving and when to exert gentle corrective force - if too much is required then I "correct" by repositioning myself.

    From advanced dancers I learn when to stop moving and to interpret the feedback forces that they send me through the connection.

    The main thing for me is that every dance feels like a dance and not a lesson. The biggest achievement and compliment I can think of is when the follow says afterwards "Thanks I really felt like I was dancing!". Even better if that comes from someone on their first night!

    Dancing should be fun for everyone and I would rather be a smiley fun beginner than an unapprochable advanced dancer.

    Andy

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by PretzelMeister View Post
    Be careful not to alienate too many followers along the way
    VERY occasionally I'll just stand there with my arms outstretched palms facing up waiting till the Follower comes back to me when a move goes completely wrong ( but only with an experienced and well known follower).
    I assume they know me well enough to understand my weird sense of humour. Well, they've never walked off and left me with a redder, yet.
    Last edited by dep; 20th-March-2008 at 03:15 PM.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Don't have time to read it all, but my advice would be:
    - dance with everyone you can
    - forget technique for a while - if it dosn't work, it dosn't work; "just smile and wave boys - smile and wave"
    - start trying to listen to the music more and work your moves in with it - I've found it amazing how moves are followed more accuratly when they coincide with the music
    - go back to basics and work out how to lead every basic move perfectly for every follower... I've not acheived it yet, but the goal has improved my leading for most of my dancing.

  16. #36
    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by PretzelMeister View Post
    Snip.. Hope this helps.PM
    Hey PretzelMeister,

    Was a pleasure meeting you and Lemoncake last Saturday night at WhiteTigers party.

    I was very impressed with your dancing showcase!

    I also enjoyed my dance with LemonCake and was in awe of her following capability. I remember my leading arm gave a little spasm (not warmed up properly) and that Lemoncake managed to follow it like a finely tune sports car. That’s when I thought, I'm way out my depth here. I managed to keep a smile on LemonCake's face so couldn't have done to bad, I hope.

    Yeah that's a good point about watching followers I don't rate dance with other dancers. I have actually done that in the past and what I've noticed is that the advance leaders have a lot of the same troubles I do but they quickly switch to doing a lot of two handed moves where they have complete control and the dance flows. I also notice a lot of the more experienced but not more advance dancers doing a lot of moves on inexperienced dancer which make me cringe, no don't do that deep dip on her, yes help pick her off the floor now.

    I've never tutted at anyone but have been tutted at in the past it's not pleasant.

    If a move I'm practicing does go Pete Tong I'll usually make a joke of it, "Say well I really mucked that one up didn't I" and just give a bin grin and knowing nod.

    It usually cracks a smile and normally a little more tension is added to the dance which I find is normally a good thing.

    Thanks for the input, DD

  17. #37
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    DD, I don’t see giving challenging dances to poor intermediates as constructive at all, just unnecessarily unpleasant. When I dance with someone better than me I don’t think to myself that I “need to pull my socks up” because the reasons I may find a dance challenging are nothing to do with laziness or lack of application. How can you deliberately give someone a dance which you know they won’t enjoy? I don’t actually believe you think it’s so clever to be selfish either, or you wouldn’t have started this thread in the form of a question.

    I don’t “hold grudges” and I am not “narked” when refused a dance as you suggest – disappointed is more like it, and surprised, because I have been led to believe that the etiquette is not to refuse. As far as partners deliberately doing hard moves on me when they know I am a beginner are concerned, yes when I improve I could potentially have a ‘nice’ dance with them (provided I can’t avoid being asked), but that isn’t the point – they will still be prats, and presumably still being just as mean to other beginners. Even if their behaviour no longer affects me personally, in my eyes mean is mean. And a nice dance? Sorry mate, poor personal connection means that won’t be a ‘nice’ dance for me, no matter how technically wonderful. That's not holding a grudge, it's called remembering someone who deliberately destroyed my confidence in asking better men to dance. I find it hard enough to ask anyway, being female and a beginner - after a man exercised your "technique" at what was a new venue for me I sat out for a very long time before I dared ask anyone. I haven't been back to that venue since because even when I had a few better dances later on, my confidence wasn't very high, so that probably coloured my opinion of the entire evening.

    My comments on whether you have considered your posture etc. weren’t meant to imply that you have specific problems, merely that if you are normal then you are unlikely to be perfect, therefore there should always be something you can get out of any dance. Other forumites’ posting seem to confirm that there is something to learn from dancing with every level.

    If we had a non-perfect dance as you describe, then actually, no, afterwards I wouldn’t feel you ways you suggest. Firstly, if I were to “panic” during a dance with you, then you are doing something very wrong; I might make mistakes, but I shouldn’t ever panic – maybe your personal connection isn’t quite as good as you think.

    Secondly, if you stepped through 20% of the moves to try them out, wouldn’t I know that is what we were doing from your communication with me? I wouldn’t have any kind of problem using a dance to try things out. Surely it would be useful for both parties? Even if I knew the move already, I’m sure I could get something out of the process (because I know I’m not perfect and never will be).

    Thirdly, I would be making an effort to enjoy your company and give you my full attention for the duration of our dance – a courtesy I would extend to any partner, regardless of their ability. There are very few men I would choose never to dance with again, and that isn’t about the dancing, more that I don’t wish to give my full attention to someone who clearly doesn’t value it.

    As far as me possibly confusing advanced and intermediate with good and bad intermediate, well maybe, I’m happy to be corrected here…of the half dozen men I have danced with and considered to be advanced I only know one for sure who is a forumite – Trampy, are you advanced or intermediate? Anyone else have an opinion on that?

    I feel that I am exactly the sort of person who is going to be on the end of this proposed strategy of yours, DD, because I’m sure if we danced you would feel I was not worth your while, and so I would be given a “challenging dance” to make me “pull my socks up”. However, I don’t intend to stay at this level for ever, but when I get better and make it onto your suitability list, do you think I am going to want to dance with you when at an earlier stage you have quite probably totally destroyed my confidence and made me feel completely crap about my dancing? Also, yes, I’m a humble beginner and as such I have little power to exercise choice in the matter, but like many current beginners and poor intermediates, there was an experienced dancer who took me along in the first place. You will get a reputation among followers of all levels if you are seen to be unpleasant, and yes, women do talk to each other.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    ...Trampy, are you advanced or intermediate? Anyone else have an opinion on that?...
    I'm sure Trampy won't mind me saying it for him (he's said it often enough himself ), but he's "just a beginner"

    And to your post; sorry I can't rep you for it as I have to spread it around first.

    DD, you come across as a nice guy in person and by PM, but whether by accident or not your forum postings aren't painting you in the best light. I understand your frustration and applaud your desire to improve, but putting down other people in the process probably isn't the best way to go about doing it. Confidence can be a fragile thing, and as noted above people also have long memories. Not in terms of holding a grudge, just remembering someone who made them feel bad at the start of their dance career and so not particularly wishing to dance with them later on. And how does anyone who's reading your posts and has danced with you know that they don't fall into your "70%"? Please note, this is a rhetorical question: I don't expect any comments, complimentary or not, on my own dancing

    By all means, try and find ways to improve. I find that enjoyment and improvement seem to go hand in hand; maybe something to consider?

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    It is very obvious when someone is trying to "dance up". It signifies a combination of inexperience and attempted selfishness. It lets me know that this person will leave me on the sidelines (or give me bad dances) as soon as they perceive that they have improved, or as soon as a better dancer becomes available. They may also be unfriendly to those of my friends who are less experienced than me, or who have just started. The overall package is unattractive.

    I will endorse practicing the moves in the intermediate class during the freestyle after the intermediate class, with folks who've been dancing the "six weeks or more" deemed necessary. I'd recommend doing this explicitly ("do you mind if we practice some of the moves from tonight's class?"). It's useful to practice the moves outside the artificial environment of the class. This works best if both dancers are trying to learn from the experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    What else can I do if I want to progress at a steady pace?
    I'd recommend asking people of all levels. If you suck as much as you say, then 80% of them will be better than you anyway, so you'll get 80% of the claimed benefits of dancing up without the downsides you've identified yourself. Plus, if there are benefits to dancing with the other 20%, as I believe there are, you'll get those too.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    ... when I find a move that a wide range of followers can't follow when I lead it, I either try to adapt the move until it does work, or drop it from my repertoire. Dances are too short to worry about getting first move barriers to work.


    The other thing I try before dropping the move is asking Janet or Camille what I'm doing wrong. Follows who can explain why your lead isn't working or how to make it better are gold.

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