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Thread: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Question How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    I haven't been trying that hard lately to improve my dancing but think I'm going to make a consistent push over the next while to try and take my dancing to the next level, I would describe that level I am currently aiming for is competent intermediate level.

    The last few classes I have attended have brought home to me what a considerable challenge this will be and I'm not even convinced yet if it's worth the effort but that’s another subject.

    At the last few classes the moves in the intermediate class haven't been that difficult to get a handle on what I'm roughly supposed to be doing.

    What I'm finding is that around 70% of the dancers I'm dancing with are generally making a bad job of following, that’s a whole different subject area as well.

    What I'm starting to feel is, if I don't consistently dance with good followers then my dancing just isn't going to progress and I'm going to go stale, get bored and lose interest in Ceroc.

    The only way out I can see at the moment is to become selfish in my approach to Ceroc.

    I think I'm going to take two approaches, one for class nights and one for party/freestyle nights.

    For freestyle nights I'll happily dance with anyone who asks me and I'll try to tailor the dance to give me and my partner the maximum amount of enjoyment. Although I'll probably tend to stick to asking the better followers to dance with instead of just the person next to me or the person who missed out on the last dance.

    For class nights where I feel you are there to learn and improve your dancing I'm going to start taking a more hard line approach (tough love). I'm going to stop asking beginners for dances unless under exceptional circumstances.
    I do think it's awful to reject someone offer of a dance so if anyone asks I will still accept but on class nights I won't tailor the dance to there level but try to practice the intermediate moves that have been taught that night or in the recent weeks.

    I have been finding that doing one or two basic moves then practicing an intermediate moves gives me best results.

    With good followers this approach seems to keep them on there toes and give them a nice challenge which I sense they enjoy. I do get a lot of hints and tips from the good followers when attempting these new intermediate moves (push here ,signal that way, you should have step back there etc), they are certainly not shy in giving advice and some of it is actually worth listening to now and then.

    For the beginners this basic move then intermediate move approach will be hard on them. I would reckon that nearly ever attempt at the intermediate move would go wrong. I think that would make for a fairly poor dance and hopefully that would be a bit of a wake up call for them to either A) find someone easier to dance with or B) actually learn how to follow properly. Either way would be a win win situation for me.

    I kinda feel like I'm turning over to the dark side on this and will probably be labelled as a hotshot but what else can I do if I want to progress at a steady pace?

    (sure I could dance with everyone and maybe get to a decent level in 2-3 years time, but I belong to the "want it now" generation)

    I may well try this approach out in just one venue to for a month or so just in case everyone start booing me when I enter the dance hall and everyone refuses to dance with me. At least that way I'd have an alternative to fall back on.

    Anyone else took an approach similar to this and was it beneficially to your dancing and any regrets?

    Cheers, DD

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Hi DD

    I can see where your coming from, and I myself have faced similar issues when trying to impove my standard of dance. However, very early on in MJ when I was starting quite a few of the experienced ladies helped me, and encouraged me, when I felt like giving up. Now it seems only right to put something back in, as otherwise where are the next generation of experienced dancers going to get experience dancing with good leads.

    You seem at present to be fixated on learning new moves, and executing them. Whilst have new moves is great, being able to execute moves by leading them well is much better. Yes, some beginners can be a night mare to dance with, ( I have scars literally to prove that), but some of those will be brillant dancers, and some +ve encouragement goes along way. Also dancing with beginners should allow you to modify your lead to help them "get" the move, and improve you ability to adapt to your partners dance level.

    I am guilty of rarely asking new people to dance, but as a rule I would never turn down a beginner request to dance (I recall what bottle it took when I started, to asked experienced followers to dance with me). Also if I do end up dancing with someone who is somewhat challanging to lead, then I use it as an oppertunity to try a be a little more self aware, of what I am doing (posture, eye contact, styling etc) and if I can somehow improve it. That way even a painful dance may contribute to incremantal improvements in your own dance style.


    Onkar

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    I've always thought you need to dance with all types to improve your dancing, e.g. beginning followers require you to focus more on your leading and improve in that department, advanced followers require you to focus more on developing style for example

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    For the beginners this basic move then intermediate move approach will be hard on them. I would reckon that nearly ever attempt at the intermediate move would go wrong. I think that would make for a fairly poor dance and hopefully that would be a bit of a wake up call for them to either A) find someone easier to dance with or B) actually learn how to follow properly. Either way would be a win win situation for me.
    I suggest that you change your assumption on this! Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? If the move is well lead, then there is no reason for it to go wrong, even if it’s a beginner (first time dancer) whom you lead it on. When I first started, I had lots of weird moves lead on me in the first few weeks, and most of them worked, even if some left me feeling perplexed. I actually took it as a compliment that the guys thought I’d be able to follow them

    Also, if you feel you are dancing with a complete newbie, then use your idea of a mix of beginner and intermediate moves (the one from the class that night). Presumably you are wanting to get that move into your muscle memory, and be able to lead it clearly, therefore an inexperienced dancer is probably much better to lead it on. If you lead it on a follow who has been in the class, how do you know if she’s followed because you’ve lead it well, or because she’s remembered what you’ve both done in class? A good follow can compensate for a bad lead, to some degree. An inexperienced follow is far less likely to.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    What I'm finding is that around 70% of the dancers I'm dancing with are generally making a bad job of following, that’s a whole different subject area as well.
    Try asking yourself if it’s really the follows following badly, or if you are leading the moves as clearly as you can?

    If you want to crack a particular move or technique, then try asking the more experienced follows for help with it, then practice it in class. That will prep them to not compensate, and also to watch what you’re doing and come up with suggestions. You may have an idea of your strengths and weaknesses which might differ from that of the follows.

    Better yet, ask your teacher how they think you can improve. And do workshops.

    I do however you for thinking about this and wanting to improve your dancing

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    Registered User Jhutch's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    How many intermediate moves can you do so far? I guess that by the time i have finished this reply someone will have already replied saying it isnt about the moves. There is some truth in this but it is nice to learn new ones - it can be a bit embarassing just doing mostly beginner moves and doing more complex moves can give you a sense of achievement.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer


    What I'm finding is that around 70% of the dancers I'm dancing with are generally making a bad job of following, that’s a whole different subject area as well.
    70% - how can you be sure that it isnt your fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

    What I'm starting to feel is, if I don't consistently dance with good followers then my dancing just isn't going to progress and I'm going to go stale, get bored and lose interest in Ceroc.

    The only way out I can see at the moment is to become selfish in my approach to Ceroc.

    I think I'm going to take two approaches, one for class nights and one for party/freestyle nights.

    For freestyle nights I'll happily dance with anyone who asks me and I'll try to tailor the dance to give me and my partner the maximum amount of enjoyment. Although I'll probably tend to stick to asking the better followers to dance with instead of just the person next to me or the person who missed out on the last dance.
    I actually prefer doing things the other way round. A typical class freestyle lasts for 1.5 hours and tends to have more beginners. I dont know what your party nights are like but i would guess they last longer than this. Also there are likely to be fewer beginners i would have thought? I think that my leading benefits most from the longer nights. This is because i believe that i get better as the evening goes on - simply a case of doing the moves again and again. This then makes it easier to try something new as everything else is going better. Trying something new on a beginner is not advisable as they may struggle to follow a well-led move, if it is badly led then they probably won't follow it at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

    For class nights where I feel you are there to learn and improve your dancing I'm going to start taking a more hard line approach (tough love). I'm going to stop asking beginners for dances unless under exceptional circumstances.
    I do think it's awful to reject someone offer of a dance so if anyone asks I will still accept but on class nights I won't tailor the dance to there level but try to practice the intermediate moves that have been taught that night or in the recent weeks.

    I have been finding that doing one or two basic moves then practicing an intermediate moves gives me best results.
    I dont think that dancing at your level rather than theirs is a good idea. For a start, you probably wont be able to lead moves very well if you have only recently learnt them. This means that, as they probably cant follow that well, then the dance is likely to fall apart. Surely it is better for all concerned if you stick to the moves that you can lead best?


    Yes, trying to do two (or more) new moves in a row can make things difficult - coming out of the first one you may be off balance, off beat, in someone's way, bad hand connection, etc. You may well also be trying to work out how the move went. In such a situation it is best IMO to do some easier moves to let your brain clear itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer

    With good followers this approach seems to keep them on there toes and give them a nice challenge which I sense they enjoy. I do get a lot of hints and tips from the good followers when attempting these new intermediate moves (push here ,signal that way, you should have step back there etc), they are certainly not shy in giving advice and some of it is actually worth listening to now and then.

    For the beginners this basic move then intermediate move approach will be hard on them. I would reckon that nearly ever attempt at the intermediate move would go wrong. I think that would make for a fairly poor dance and hopefully that would be a bit of a wake up call for them to either A) find someone easier to dance with or B) actually learn how to follow properly. Either way would be a win win situation for me.
    A) Hm, not a fan of dancing badly with people just because they arent as good as me...

    B) As i said above, when trying a new move you are not likely to lead it well so it isnt a case of them being a bad follower i wouldnt have thought? A more experienced follower may be able to help you through but that is not really part of following is it?


    At the end of the day improving takes work and unfortunately new moves wont flow as well as worn-in moves. The most common advice is to try and do one move from the routine in every dance in the freestyle afterwards. This is good advice IMO as trying to do all three can be too much. Sometimes you can cheat and just use a bit of a move if the moves dont take your fancy and are too hard. Indeed you can cheat and split a move up into two bits and have two new moves

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    Registered User Jhutch's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post

    Also, if you feel you are dancing with a complete newbie, then use your idea of a mix of beginner and intermediate moves (the one from the class that night). Presumably you are wanting to get that move into your muscle memory, and be able to lead it clearly, therefore an inexperienced dancer is probably much better to lead it on. If you lead it on a follow who has been in the class, how do you know if she’s followed because you’ve lead it well, or because she’s remembered what you’ve both done in class? A good follow can compensate for a bad lead, to some degree. An inexperienced follow is far less likely to.
    This is true actually. If you feel confident enough in a move to try it on a newbie then there isnt any reason why you cant lead it (unless it is a drop or something). If you are able to lead it then it will give your confidence a big boost

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    I'm not sure selfish is the right word.

    One thing I would work on is worrying more about your own dancing rather than the quality of the people you're dancing with. If you've mastered a couple of dozen moves, you're doing well - but I would guess that your leading and your technique have a lot of room for improvement. I know after I'd been doing ceroc for half a year, I knew a "lot" of moves but had a lot of room for improvement. Most of the real improvement came from improving my technique - especially how to lead - and learning musicality. I suspect that most of the improvement I'll make in the future will be in these areas too.

    Dancing with experienced dancers does help - but it's not enough. I often find the opposite: when I'm dancing with very good dancers, I have to concentrate on dancing with them. I need to dance well, but not with the sort of critical reflexivity that I need to improve my dancing (I just love that phrase...). When I take my dancing down a notch or two, I can heed about what I'm doing, see where I need to fix it, and try and improve things. But all of this presupposes that I have the technical knowledge to know what I'm doing wrong and how to improve my own dancing. Most of the improvements I've made are a result of feedback from other people. One clear advantage of dancing with better dancers is they are more likely to spot your weaknesses and, if asked, give you some useful feedback.

    Another would be to try out some different venues and teachers. Perhaps workshops and the like. Each teacher puts a different slant on their teaching and some are significantly better than others. Workshops tend to give you the chance to get the direct feedback that really helps.

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jhutch View Post
    70% - how can you be sure that it isnt your fault?
    OK let's put an example in here to clarify where it's not working for me.

    Last nights class included the move "First move barrier turn", I would say it's an average intermediate move.

    It's the second time I've been taught this move so I have the mechanics down fairly well.

    When I was practicing this in freestyle if I remember right only one experienced follower got it right first time.

    The rest of the dancers about 6 in a row took 2-3 attempts before we managed some variety.

    Mistakes ranged from:-
    holding on to my shoulder so I couldn't push them into the barrier.
    Spinning into the barrier to fast and busting through it.
    Stopping short of the barrier so there is no tension to pull out into the turn.
    Me pushing them into the barrier and them just pushing back out again.
    Etc…

    So it seems if I lead a reasonable lead for such a move on a half decent follower they will do the move fine, I will feel good I've done a new move and that I only have to fine tune it to include it in my routine.

    On the other hand the other 70% of followers I seem to be dancing with these days are just getting me in tangles and I am starting to find it frustrating.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    I want to get better too, and I want to get better now. I know that I can dance much better with good men, but I feel it would be arrogant and selfish of me only to ask men to dance if I feel I can learn from them. DD, if other people took the same attitude you have of only wanting to dance with people they could learn from, who would you dance with?

    In an ideal world I would love every man I dance with to be excellent. In the real world, with a few exceptions, I normally only get to dance with good men and taxis when I ask them! I am profoundly grateful when I have the opportunity to dance with someone who is better than me, and I appreciate someone taking time and trouble to dance with me when I know I’m not giving them as good a dance as someone else could. I hope that if and when I’m good enough for people to want to dance with me because they think I can teach them something, I will feel as Onkar does, that it’s time to put something back.

    I think to deliberately give a beginner a hard dance, so that they won’t ask you again, is just plain mean. I’ve had a few men do the most ridiculously difficult moves on me as soon as they have known I am a beginner – maybe this is what they were doing. I just assumed it was a complete ego trip for them, and they were total prats. True, I wouldn’t ask them again, but then neither would my more experienced friends because they thought the men had given me a rotten dance on purpose. Could your strategy, perchance, ultimately shoot you in the foot??

    I can understand that you want to get better, but if that is your total focus in a class you should pay for private lessons. I’m new to this ceroc lark, but it seems to me that there is a social aspect and a personal connection about MJ – someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we aren’t dancing in a vacuum and those are real people out there who have feelings.

    I agree with these other posts in response, maybe you actually can learn something useful from dancing with beginners. I’ve already mentioned on this board that I’m a linedancer - one thing I have learnt is that if I look hard enough I can always find something to improve even when doing what would otherwise for me be a mind-numbingly boring beginner linedance. So is your posture already perfect? Is your lead completely clear? Are you capable of maximising your partner’s dancing ability by your own skill and the clarity of your lead? Are your moves perfectly chosen to complement the music? Are you making appropriate personal contact? I don’t know how good you are, but when you say you are aiming for competent intermediate level, maybe you might be able to work on those aspects a little. OK, I’m very inexperienced, but boy can I tell the difference between dancing with intermediate and advanced leads!

    To be honest I’d be pretty narked if I knew someone was operating your proposed strategy at my local venue. Is this sort of thing common??? The only thing that gives me hope is that you were at least honest enough to post the idea of it on the forum. I was going to suggest you look for a venue which catered for people only of your level and above, but then that wouldn’t solve your problem, as you would be the equivalent of a beginner…oh dear…

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Odd, I have been wondering how unselfish I had to be to improve my dancing.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    ...
    Mistakes ranged from:-
    holding on to my shoulder so I couldn't push them into the barrier.
    Spinning into the barrier to fast and busting through it.
    Stopping short of the barrier so there is no tension to pull out into the turn.
    Me pushing them into the barrier and them just pushing back out again.
    Etc…

    ...
    It sounds like one of the things you're working on now (whether you know it or not) is the skill of quickly working out what sort of moves the follow you're dancing with will be able to follow. There are a lot of moves that I can lead on pretty much any girl on her first night at ceroc, there are a few more that I'll only attempt on someone who has the basics of following, and a very few more that I'll only try on the experienced follows. Good luck with it all!

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    ... If the move is well lead, then there is no reason for it to go wrong, even if it’s a beginner (first time dancer) whom you lead it on.
    Possibly a bit of a stretch.

    When I first started, I had lots of weird moves lead on me in the first few weeks, and most of them worked, even if some left me feeling perplexed. I actually took it as a compliment that the guys thought I’d be able to follow them ...
    I think it is a compliment.

    You might have been in the 30% or whatever percentage it is who follow well from the start.

    So if a move was well lead on you there is no reason for it to go wrong, even when you were a beginner.

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    OK let's put an example in here to clarify where it's not working for me.

    Last nights class included the move "First move barrier turn", I would say it's an average intermediate move...
    I have had problems with the first move barrier into log walk. It seems some follows think I can't mean that, my arm is in the way. I am developing the art of turning their refusal into a flick spin for them, or doing a spin myself to give them time to sort themselves out.

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I want to get better too, and I want to get better now. I know that I can dance much better with good men, but I feel it would be arrogant and selfish of me only to ask men to dance if I feel I can learn from them. DD, if other people took the same attitude you have of only wanting to dance with people they could learn from, who would you dance with?
    Dancers at roughly my level would want to dance with me.

    In my childhood I used to do some karate, we’d all train together but when it came to freestyle which is a lot like freestyle at Ceroc, the karate people would only pair up people of similar grades. White belts and yellow belts would dance/fight whatever you want to call it, Blues and Purples, Browns and Blacks.

    If a yellow belt was paired against blue belt say then it just wasn’t a fair match, The yellow belt would be out the ring before they knew it had even started and the blue belt had not been challenged in any way so had made no progress.

    If on the other hand two blue belts fought, the fight would normally be well balanced, it would last longer, they would look for ways to get the edge to win, to improve. One would lose and find a fault in there skills, the other would have honed a useful skill and gained more confidence in there actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    snip… time to put something back. I think to deliberately give a beginner a hard dance, so that they won’t ask you again, is just plain mean.
    Sorry I’ve made a mistake here

    Beginner is the wrong word to use, I won’t give a beginner a hard dance that is just silly. I would class a beginners as people with less than 10 weeks Ceroc experience.

    No what I’m taking about here is giving more challenging dances to “poor intermediates”. They way I see it they will either think, I’m being challenged here and I’ll need to pull my socks up or they will think dancing with him is to much like hard work. I won’t bother dancing with him unless I’m really desperate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I’ve had a few men do the most ridiculously difficult moves on me as soon as they have known I am a beginner – maybe this is what they were doing. I just assumed it was a complete ego trip for them, and they were total prats.
    Maybe they were prats but then again maybe when you improve they will start asking you to dance and that might be a nice surprise for you. Sure you can try to hold a grudge 3 months down the line but faced with the choice of a nice dance with a guy who used to be a prat or a dance with a jerky beginner you might well find yourself conveniently forgetting the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Could your strategy, perchance, ultimately shoot you in the foot??
    Possibly, but surprisingly none of the more advance dancers on here are making comment yet so I’m starting to think maybe it is an approach they are already using but don’t want to talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I can understand that you want to get better, but if that is your total focus in a class you should pay for private lessons.
    What’s the point of having an intermediate class if no one is going to learn from it then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I’m new to this ceroc lark, but it seems to me that there is a social aspect and a personal connection about MJ – someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we aren’t dancing in a vacuum and those are real people out there who have feelings.
    Yeah that’s why I’m not thinking of refusing them a dance but giving them a challenging dance. One when they will walk away knowing they’ve not followed that well to moves that should be within there ability as they are stuck in a beginners rut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I agree with these other posts in response, maybe you actually can learn something useful from dancing with beginners.
    No, I’m starting to feel poor followers are holding me significantly back now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    snip…is your posture already perfect? Are your moves perfectly chosen to complement the music? Is your lead completely clear?
    No complaints about my posture.
    No my moves don’t match the music, I think that is way beyond me at this moment.
    I’ve been told my lead is clear and smooth by taxi dancers and the more experienced dancer when I get a chance to dance with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Are you capable of maximising your partner’s dancing ability by your own skill and the clarity of your lead?
    Yes, I’m maxing out 70% of followers I dance with by trying nearly any intermediate move where I don’t have both hands on my partner to totally control the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Are you making appropriate personal contact?
    Hhhmmm don’t think I’m gaining any new pen friends if that’s what your getting at?


    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    OK, I’m very inexperienced, but boy can I tell the difference between dancing with intermediate and advanced leads!
    I find that surpising, I think you might be telling the difference between good and bad intermediates at this point but sorry I don’t really care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    To be honest I’d be pretty narked if I knew someone was operating your proposed strategy at my local venue. Is this sort of thing common???
    Well you seemed pretty narked in one of your previous posts about being refused a dance.

    Next time you are at freestyle notice how many of the better dancers don’t go to the edges of the dance hall but just call over to someone they know to come dance with them. (This forum is like the Matrix, once you take the pill you see the real reality, try not to shoot the messenger.)

    How do think you would feel if I took you up for a dance and 60% of the moves glided by nicely to the music but 20% of the moves didn’t flow and you actually felt it was your mistakes the moves didn’t work, you had panic and turned the wrong way say. Also the last 20% of moves I had stepped through the at snail pace as it was clear I didn’t know the move and was just trying it out?

    Would you feel, 40% of that dance was crap I’m not dancing with him again he’s rubbish.

    Or

    I think we both got something out of that, I know I made mistakes but I hope he doesn’t refuse me another dance next time I see him, I feel like I’ve learned something there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    The only thing that gives me hope is that you were at least honest enough to post the idea of it on the forum.
    Stupid enough to post the idea on the forum, that’s me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I was going to suggest you look for a venue which catered for people only of your level and above, but then that wouldn’t solve your problem, as you would be the equivalent of a beginner…oh dear…
    Oh but I can be a very charming beginner if I want to be, I’d get dances OK, no worries

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Last nights class included the move "First move barrier turn", I would say it's an average intermediate move.
    Excellent example of a simple move which is too tricky to be worth your effort, untill you can lead it with a beginner follower. All the problems you have with it are likely to be more down to your lead than you think. Forget the intermediates, they have too much to un-learn...

    Sean

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    There is another way of improving yourself as a dancer and that is to become a taxi dancer. This definately improves your lead it also teaches you discipline and more importantly it teaches you patience.

    Remember that you are there to enjoy yourself and not to be to critical of yourself and of others,especially the people that are not as good as you. You only get better if you dance with people that are willing to teach and learn.

    If you are there not to have fun but to be serious then you should maybe look into competition.

    Smile lifes to short and remember Dance.

  17. #17
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Mistakes ranged from:-
    holding on to my shoulder so I couldn't push them into the barrier.
    Spinning into the barrier to fast and busting through it.
    Stopping short of the barrier so there is no tension to pull out into the turn.
    Me pushing them into the barrier and them just pushing back out again.
    Etc…
    Well - I thought I'd try experimenting with this one a little bit while dancing tonight. The only thing which gave me trouble (apart from the fact that it's probably been years since I remembered that this move existed) was a lady who did the first one - holding on to my shoulder. It took three tries to work out a gentle way to get her to release my shoulder when I needed her to. After that, she showed an inclination do to the stopping short trick - but playing with the tension seemed to sort that out OK.

    My point? You can often learn a huge amount about your own lead through dancing with follows that you find hard to lead.

    If I dance with a dream follower, who seems to read my mind and respond to my every tiniest, most subtle lead... yep. Makes for wonderful, wonderful dances. And yes - I learn from these. BUT... I think I learn more from when things go wrong, and from my attempts to correct those things.

    The main thing is: I must remain open to the fact that my lead is far from perfect. So the move didn't go as I planned? I can go back to the 'better' followers who I know I can lead through the move, and feel better about it... or I can take the opportunity to learn to do the move in more difficult conditions, and really benefit my lead.

  18. #18
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    You need to dance with a wide range of partners to improve your lead. I don't agree with all the 'If your lead is good enough then it should work on a complete beginner' since there are prerequisites we expect of a follower in any dance (albeit in MJ this is to a lesser extent) and if they aren't there it will not work. If things are not working well with a partner and you feel it is down to their inexperience then you probably need to try leading simpler patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    Forget the intermediates, they have too much to un-learn...
    So where do you class yourself tsh? Above the intermediates presumably?

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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Although I have been dancing 10 years, I never stop learning. I can normally tell how experienced a follower is by the tension in their handhold. If they are inexperienced, I will stick to basic moves and just relax into it.

    I have a 75 - 25 percent principle of dance - 75% freestyle with 25% experimentation with new moves. Experience varies from dancer to dancer, so it is constantly changing.

    Always keep learning.

    best
    johnnyman

  20. #20
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    Re: How selfish do leads need to be to improve there dancing to a good level?

    Dancing with just good dancers will be as productive as dancing with a fixed partner.

    When faced with an unfamiliarity, your weaknesses will show.

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