When does the beat happen? At which points within the move do the beats fall?
I have spent a long time working on my own dancing and how to stretch the timing and still be within the beat structure: Until the follower faces me I could be leading a step back, step forward, shoulder-drop, comb, lady's comb, double turn,... unless I collect the follower, I try not to put any prep into a turn: there is more likleyhood of my actions pulling the follower off balance. The lead after a turn is normally the prep for the following move.
The 'important' timing with the beat is that you ensure there is one under points where you change direction/sharply change the flow of the movement. Other than that you can stretch or squish the timing and still be on the beat. Most people when beginning rush moves so that they start a movement on the beat - even if it means completing the last movement and waiting around. Most dancers with more experience try and end a movement on the beat - much smoother.
If you know that they are going to lead a turn, but don't prep you; yes. You are a good follower and compensate for a lot of the lead's inaccuracy's/laziness. That's part of what makes you a good follower.
How do you know that the lead is leading that move? How do you know that there is a turn coming? How does the lead is say "There is a turn coming next" without preping you?Take a WCS sugar tuck for example: the compression the follow will push off (on her right hand) from (the leader's left hand) is entirely parallel to the slot (hence no rotational prep can be given), and it is the follower's job to prep her upper body in the opposite direction of the turn to accomplish the turn smoothly.
I can see that the a follower could pick up on more subtle signals earlier and prepare themselves - but I'm not 100% convinced that this isn't pandering to the lazyness of the lead.
Lead it slowly.
If you are simply raising your hand up and letting the follower turn under it, then I can't give you any pointers: First thing you need to do is deliberatly take your hand at a constant speed up to your partner's ear height - controll the speed of the turn here (rather than when your hand is above your partner's head) and you will find your follower turns at whatever speed you lead it.
{As I said - look at the count before to solve problems in the current count}
1) learning to lead better will not make all the problems go away. It will make it more easy to identify the problems and apply some techniques to remedy the symptoms (... but not the disease! <thwack> )
2) leading better has no bearing on the quality of the follower: I may lead differently, for a beginner to a really good follower, but I would hope that my lead is just as clear and followable to both.
I'd like to think that I'm not just raising my hand up and hoping they'll turn. This is not a problem I generally have, I wouldn't even go so far as to call it a problem. 95% of the time I have no problem leading returns and turns (the problems tend to come in between them).
The reason I asked for tips was because sometimes I can be raising my hand up in a lovely smooth, gentle motion, but then the follower freezes, decides which direction she thinks she should be turning in, then rushes to catch up. If I can get to the point where this no longer happens, I'd welcome any advice which can help.
Saying that, I will try to concentrate on the speed of my return leading next time I dance .
I don't actually agree with either of the points I wrote above, I was just summarizing Geoff's position and revealing the contradiction. I'd agree with what you're saying.
Dan
Oh I see what you mean. Yes, indeed. Follows should never move their connecting hand out of the connection that is given to them. My point was more around certain moves (like that sugar tuck) that don't allow for any prep, and for which it is a fundamental technique for the follows to prep themselves with a slight rotation of their upperbody.
If you are talking about a touch turn then as you get to compression the man's shoulder is turning slightly as a natural continuation of the moment of compression which results in the lady also matching that slight rotation thereby creating a preparation. Once that preparation (I believe torque is sometimes mentioned) is released then the turn happens effortlessly.
This is a principle I've been taught by those wot know about technique. Seems to work for world class dancers so I guess it's good enough for me.
M
If the turn is the unwind, then there has to be some wind. If you just give the energy in compression as the lady comes toward you then she will be led to go straight back in the same direction, but the small amount of wind in compression will result in an unwind.
I think maybe perhaps a lead may think he is 'prepping' the lady, when they are in fact over-leading. However, I'm sure there are some ladies who require some over-leading for a move to work after a fashion.
M
he stands in front of me (i.e. on my slot) and gives me compression while his left hand is raised - within the rules of wcs that means there's no other option for me than to go back with half a turn.
you mean you prep them on 1 and 2 ? I thought basic sugar tuck 1,2 was similar to a sugar push, i.e. no prep.
that's true, some leads might give you that prep by sending their left shoulder back slightly but they don't all do. That's when they don't that follows still need to torque their upper body to prep themselves for the turn.
hmmm I'm sorry, but that's utter rubbish. Anyone with any kind of dancing background would tell you that preping oneself is an essential component of turning/spinning. That prep happens by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction of the turn.
Strictly speaking, I'm inclined to agree it's not necessary. I just experimented here and I can just about manage an unassisted full turn without prepping the other way to start. It feels incredibly awkward though.
In terms of the physics of partner dancing, a leader can't start a spin without pushing the follower backwards - there's a linear transfer of momentum as well as a rotational one. So my guess is that by prepping, the follower has essentially 'gone forwards' - so instead of taking her off balance, the lead for the spin puts her balance onto the spinning foot at the same time as giving the rotational impetus.
Maybe a prep is the dance equivalent of foreplay? You can get by without it, being too heavy handed with it can frustrate but the right amount helps things go a lot more smoothly and satisfyingly for your partner.
I think we are talking about different things when you mention an unassisted spin.
Take an example.
Stand a foot away from a wall.
Raise your hand up to your shoulder about 6inches away from the wall.
Now lean forward to rest against the wall using just two feet and one hand to support your weight.
I think you already see where I'm going.
Keep your body and shoulder line parallel to the wall.
Push yourself out and into a spin.
The reaction from the stationary wall gives the force necessary to initiate the spin.
It does not need a partner to prep you by pre-turning nor does the stationary wall need to pre-turn or prep.
It's the tension in the various muscle groups that give the force necessary to initate the turn.
However, if the partner is already on the ball of a foot or a skater on near frictionless ice, then the force must come from somewhere else. It could be a partner or it can come from the momentum in the limbs winding one into the turn.
Does any of that make sense in explaining my original comment?I don't think any turning of the shoulders nor body are required.
^^ It does, but it's just easier with a prep. And you can add style of sorts.
In that very example, if I do just that, i.e. keep shoulders absolutely parallel to the wall, pushing off from the wall send me exactly backwards, i.e. I'd fall backwards. I'd have to be bloody good to make a spin out of that (I'm not).
Now if I bring my right shoulder closer to the wall than my left (assuming I have the right hand on the wall and standing on my right foot) I can generate a rotational movement out of that, i.e. a spin.
Try it yourself.
Last edited by Caro; 23rd-March-2008 at 12:48 AM.
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