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Thread: Preps – good or bad?

  1. #61
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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    You said it there, wait until they're finished. Both the great lead and the beginning lead are going to have them out off the beat?
    When does the beat happen? At which points within the move do the beats fall?
    I have spent a long time working on my own dancing and how to stretch the timing and still be within the beat structure: Until the follower faces me I could be leading a step back, step forward, shoulder-drop, comb, lady's comb, double turn,... unless I collect the follower, I try not to put any prep into a turn: there is more likleyhood of my actions pulling the follower off balance. The lead after a turn is normally the prep for the following move.

    The 'important' timing with the beat is that you ensure there is one under points where you change direction/sharply change the flow of the movement. Other than that you can stretch or squish the timing and still be on the beat. Most people when beginning rush moves so that they start a movement on the beat - even if it means completing the last movement and waiting around. Most dancers with more experience try and end a movement on the beat - much smoother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Well I was once told by someone whose technique I value very highly that preping oneself for a turn is one of the follow's fundamental, even if the lead does not allow for it or the leader doesn't do it for you.
    If you know that they are going to lead a turn, but don't prep you; yes. You are a good follower and compensate for a lot of the lead's inaccuracy's/laziness. That's part of what makes you a good follower.
    Take a WCS sugar tuck for example: the compression the follow will push off (on her right hand) from (the leader's left hand) is entirely parallel to the slot (hence no rotational prep can be given), and it is the follower's job to prep her upper body in the opposite direction of the turn to accomplish the turn smoothly.
    How do you know that the lead is leading that move? How do you know that there is a turn coming? How does the lead is say "There is a turn coming next" without preping you?
    I can see that the a follower could pick up on more subtle signals earlier and prepare themselves - but I'm not 100% convinced that this isn't pandering to the lazyness of the lead.
    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    If there's anyone who can guide me towards improving my lead so that the follower does not turn too quickly, then I'd welcome the pointers .
    Lead it slowly.
    If you are simply raising your hand up and letting the follower turn under it, then I can't give you any pointers: First thing you need to do is deliberatly take your hand at a constant speed up to your partner's ear height - controll the speed of the turn here (rather than when your hand is above your partner's head) and you will find your follower turns at whatever speed you lead it.
    {As I said - look at the count before to solve problems in the current count}


    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    See this is the problem, I think you have a contradiction here: 1) Learn to lead better - all the problems will go away, coupled with 2) Leading better only works if the follower is doing something right (e.g. following).
    1) learning to lead better will not make all the problems go away. It will make it more easy to identify the problems and apply some techniques to remedy the symptoms (... but not the disease! <thwack> )

    2) leading better has no bearing on the quality of the follower: I may lead differently, for a beginner to a really good follower, but I would hope that my lead is just as clear and followable to both.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    .........If you are simply raising your hand up and letting the follower turn under it, then I can't give you any pointers: First thing you need to do is deliberatly take your hand at a constant speed up to your partner's ear height - controll the speed of the turn here (rather than when your hand is above your partner's head) and you will find your follower turns at whatever speed you lead it.....
    I hadn't thought about it that way.
    I will examine my lead with that "speed in the raise" to see if I'm doing it or not.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Lead it slowly.
    If you are simply raising your hand up and letting the follower turn under it, then I can't give you any pointers: First thing you need to do is deliberatly take your hand at a constant speed up to your partner's ear height - controll the speed of the turn here (rather than when your hand is above your partner's head) and you will find your follower turns at whatever speed you lead it.
    {As I said - look at the count before to solve problems in the current count}
    I'd like to think that I'm not just raising my hand up and hoping they'll turn. This is not a problem I generally have, I wouldn't even go so far as to call it a problem. 95% of the time I have no problem leading returns and turns (the problems tend to come in between them).

    The reason I asked for tips was because sometimes I can be raising my hand up in a lovely smooth, gentle motion, but then the follower freezes, decides which direction she thinks she should be turning in, then rushes to catch up. If I can get to the point where this no longer happens, I'd welcome any advice which can help.

    Saying that, I will try to concentrate on the speed of my return leading next time I dance .


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    1) learning to lead better will not make all the problems go away. It will make it more easy to identify the problems and apply some techniques to remedy the symptoms (... but not the disease! <thwack> )

    2) leading better has no bearing on the quality of the follower: I may lead differently, for a beginner to a really good follower, but I would hope that my lead is just as clear and followable to both.
    I don't actually agree with either of the points I wrote above, I was just summarizing Geoff's position and revealing the contradiction. I'd agree with what you're saying.

    Dan

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    But only if you are absolutely certain that the lead wants you turn, surely? I find a number of ladies that prep themselves on 1 when dancing WCS even though I am simply trying to lead direction straight down the slot on that count.

    I think there's a difference between preparation of one's torso for a turn and a movement of the hand connection in the opposite direction from that which the follower is expected to turn. It is the latter rather than the former which I believe people are referring to in this thread as a 'prep'.
    Oh I see what you mean. Yes, indeed. Follows should never move their connecting hand out of the connection that is given to them. My point was more around certain moves (like that sugar tuck) that don't allow for any prep, and for which it is a fundamental technique for the follows to prep themselves with a slight rotation of their upperbody.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    [Moved from the "What would attract you to a new venue?" thread. – ducasi]


    I'd like to know why your not teaching to 'prepare' for turns..

    ..to me it's one of the most important things i've learnt
    Lees probably not learnt that bit yet.....Likes to keep the lady guessing...

    Yes Lory....I agree with you..

    SPROGGS

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    How does the lead is say "There is a turn coming next" without preping you?
    In the sugar tuck in West Coast? He raises his left hand.
    (though I tend to prep the follower anyway)

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    In the sugar tuck in West Coast? He raises his left hand.
    (though I tend to prep the follower anyway)

    If you are talking about a touch turn then as you get to compression the man's shoulder is turning slightly as a natural continuation of the moment of compression which results in the lady also matching that slight rotation thereby creating a preparation. Once that preparation (I believe torque is sometimes mentioned) is released then the turn happens effortlessly.

    This is a principle I've been taught by those wot know about technique. Seems to work for world class dancers so I guess it's good enough for me.

    M

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    If you are talking about a touch turn then as you get to compression the man's shoulder is turning slightly as a natural continuation of the moment of compression which results in the lady also matching that slight rotation thereby creating a preparation. Once that preparation (I believe torque is sometimes mentioned) is released then the turn happens effortlessly.
    I don't think any turning of the shoulders nor body are required.
    The action reaction thing allows the forces to be generated that give the following turn it's start energy.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I don't think any turning of the shoulders nor body are required.
    The action reaction thing allows the forces to be generated that give the following turn it's start energy.
    If the turn is the unwind, then there has to be some wind. If you just give the energy in compression as the lady comes toward you then she will be led to go straight back in the same direction, but the small amount of wind in compression will result in an unwind.

    I think maybe perhaps a lead may think he is 'prepping' the lady, when they are in fact over-leading. However, I'm sure there are some ladies who require some over-leading for a move to work after a fashion.

    M

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    How do you know that the lead is leading that move? How do you know that there is a turn coming? How does the lead is say "There is a turn coming next" without preping you?
    he stands in front of me (i.e. on my slot) and gives me compression while his left hand is raised - within the rules of wcs that means there's no other option for me than to go back with half a turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    In the sugar tuck in West Coast? He raises his left hand.
    (though I tend to prep the follower anyway)
    you mean you prep them on 1 and 2 ? I thought basic sugar tuck 1,2 was similar to a sugar push, i.e. no prep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    If you are talking about a touch turn then as you get to compression the man's shoulder is turning slightly as a natural continuation of the moment of compression which results in the lady also matching that slight rotation thereby creating a preparation. Once that preparation (I believe torque is sometimes mentioned) is released then the turn happens effortlessly.
    that's true, some leads might give you that prep by sending their left shoulder back slightly but they don't all do. That's when they don't that follows still need to torque their upper body to prep themselves for the turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I don't think any turning of the shoulders nor body are required.
    The action reaction thing allows the forces to be generated that give the following turn it's start energy.
    hmmm I'm sorry, but that's utter rubbish. Anyone with any kind of dancing background would tell you that preping oneself is an essential component of turning/spinning. That prep happens by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction of the turn.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPROGGS View Post
    Lees probably not learnt that bit yet.....Likes to keep the lady guessing...

    Yes Lory....I agree with you..

    SPROGGS

    Theres prepping and over prepping. Go dancing anywhere else in the country and you will see the difference (and see some quality dancing too)

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    hmmm I'm sorry, but that's utter rubbish. Anyone with any kind of dancing background would tell you that preping oneself is an essential component of turning/spinning. That prep happens by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction of the turn.
    I must be misunderstanding something here.
    Your adamant and I can't see why a pre-turn is necessary.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I must be misunderstanding something here.
    Your adamant and I can't see why a pre-turn is necessary.
    Watch any ballet dancer or ice-skater.

    M

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I must be misunderstanding something here.
    Your adamant and I can't see why a pre-turn is necessary.
    Strictly speaking, I'm inclined to agree it's not necessary. I just experimented here and I can just about manage an unassisted full turn without prepping the other way to start. It feels incredibly awkward though.

    In terms of the physics of partner dancing, a leader can't start a spin without pushing the follower backwards - there's a linear transfer of momentum as well as a rotational one. So my guess is that by prepping, the follower has essentially 'gone forwards' - so instead of taking her off balance, the lead for the spin puts her balance onto the spinning foot at the same time as giving the rotational impetus.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Maybe a prep is the dance equivalent of foreplay? You can get by without it, being too heavy handed with it can frustrate but the right amount helps things go a lot more smoothly and satisfyingly for your partner.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    you mean you prep them on 1 and 2?
    I meant on 3, as with Mary's description.
    Mind you, I've been known to double-prep on 1/2 in West Coast for everything, even sugar pushes. Which is bad. But funny.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    I think we are talking about different things when you mention an unassisted spin.

    Take an example.
    Stand a foot away from a wall.
    Raise your hand up to your shoulder about 6inches away from the wall.
    Now lean forward to rest against the wall using just two feet and one hand to support your weight.
    I think you already see where I'm going.
    Keep your body and shoulder line parallel to the wall.
    Push yourself out and into a spin.
    The reaction from the stationary wall gives the force necessary to initiate the spin.
    It does not need a partner to prep you by pre-turning nor does the stationary wall need to pre-turn or prep.
    It's the tension in the various muscle groups that give the force necessary to initate the turn.

    However, if the partner is already on the ball of a foot or a skater on near frictionless ice, then the force must come from somewhere else. It could be a partner or it can come from the momentum in the limbs winding one into the turn.

    Does any of that make sense in explaining my original comment?
    I don't think any turning of the shoulders nor body are required.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    ^^ It does, but it's just easier with a prep. And you can add style of sorts.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    Take an example.
    Stand a foot away from a wall.
    Raise your hand up to your shoulder about 6inches away from the wall.
    Now lean forward to rest against the wall using just two feet and one hand to support your weight.
    I think you already see where I'm going.
    Keep your body and shoulder line parallel to the wall.
    Push yourself out and into a spin.
    In that very example, if I do just that, i.e. keep shoulders absolutely parallel to the wall, pushing off from the wall send me exactly backwards, i.e. I'd fall backwards. I'd have to be bloody good to make a spin out of that (I'm not).

    Now if I bring my right shoulder closer to the wall than my left (assuming I have the right hand on the wall and standing on my right foot) I can generate a rotational movement out of that, i.e. a spin.

    Try it yourself.
    Last edited by Caro; 23rd-March-2008 at 12:48 AM.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Try it yourself.
    I did before I even typed up my post.
    I still don't agree with you.

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