Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 82

Thread: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

  1. #1
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Led by these two comments and my response


    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Ceroc have a problem in that they don’t have anyone experienced enough to teach WCS classes, the 2 options Paul F and Paul H are now doing their own thing I believe, but to be honest at the last camber weekender Paul F taught the 1st and most important WCS lesson at the primetime slot of 10am on Saturday morning.....so it would appear that WCS has left the Ceroc radar..


    Why should it be on their radar

    Does it need to piggy back on the back of Jive any more , its got its own weekender coming up ?

    I expect to see more WCS classes then jive at Southport Jiveweekender but that would be for different reasons

    WCS could be a direct threat now to Jive unlike other dances Tango etc that never will be


    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Modern Jive is as you all know a b@stard dance. Shamelessly lifting bits from anywhere and everywhere. It is that complete lack of structure that makes it so accessible and appealing. If Ceroc decide to keep their brand of MJ within the strict boundaries of their approved moves, and not be willing to teach and expand the minds of their punters then shame on them.

    Teaching WCS to MJers is a fantastic idea as WCS has so many transferable skills and moves that would improve anyone's MJ. Let's just hope that Ceroc remove their One-True-Way blinkers and remember what MJ actually is!

    Funny thing some of us who have been dancing ceroc (Im referring just to ceroc) for over a year are happy with what has given many people over 25 years of enjoyment

    The fact that it’s worked for the last 25yrs and I hope for the next 25yrs is that’s its simple and easy to learn with no fixed foot work

    If you want to develop you extraordinary skills and fancy drops then look elsewhere and stop knocking something that has worked very well for the last 25yrs

    Has it ever occurred to you MOST punters want it simple that’s why ceroc development

    Other peoples thoughts ?

    want more footwork ?
    want maybe grading ?
    want more one handed drops in the middle of crowded dance floors ?


    why cant other dances stand on there own and leave my beloved ceroc alone

    Some decisions on the ceroc business model will no doubt be taken in the next few years.

  2. #2
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Nr Cambridge
    Posts
    3,696
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    why cant other dances stand on there own and leave my beloved ceroc alone
    Immediate response is that it was Ceroc's choice to include WCS classes at previous weekenders rather than any kind of formal WCS organisation (of which there are none in the UK) pushing for inclusion.

  3. #3
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Immediate response is that it was Ceroc's choice to include WCS classes at previous weekenders rather than any kind of formal WCS organisation (of which there are none in the UK) pushing for inclusion.
    Their a business and of course maybe they cant get the teachers maybe they cant set up 45 classes around the country as they would like. If they could no doubt they would

    There is nothing wrong with having WCS at a ceroc weekender if they like

    What i dont like is this 'ceroc' is crap bring in real dances adapt etc all the time

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    196
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    why cant other dances stand on there own and leave my beloved ceroc alone

    - the system works! Some say that they should teach more about dancing technique and style in the class but although thats what forumites want, it isn't what the masses want in my experience. Anytime we actually have a more in depth class and I make an effort to ask what people thought, you're always met with a resounding; they go on a bit, can't we just dance type response. I appreciate just learning moves isn't going to make you a great dancer but many Ceroc'ers aren't and probably don't care to be great dancers. For those that do there are always workshops, weekenders and advice from likeminded dancers, taxis and teachers. And if you want to go further by all means learn Blues and WCS. I think its a smart move for Ceroc to embrace them as they absolutely work on a MJ floor but I don't think the Ceroc model should be changed all that much.

  5. #5
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    10,015
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    The only reason that I can see for Ceroc to teach WCS is to help it keep the more experienced dancers who stop attending their classes because they get bored of MJ and want a new challenge.

    Some people contend that Ceroc is only interested in the beginner market, and don't care about losing people "off the top". I'm not so sure, but to offer WCS as something extra would be a large investment for a limited market.

    There is also the problem that teaching two dances immediately creates fragmentation – at the moment everyone in a Ceroc class you can expect to be able to dance MJ with. If some know WCS, and some know MJ, asking for dances becomes a more trickier task.

    Oh, and then there is the issue of music – each group would want "their" music.

    And on the dance-floor... WCS folks complaining about MJers dancing into their slot... MJ folks complaining about WCSers taking up huge parts of the dance-floor...

    I think there's a lot MJ teachers can learn from WCS technique, which can then be converted to be suitable for MJ, but I don't think it would make commercial sense for Ceroc to "embrace" WCS and teach it.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  6. #6
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    SE London
    Posts
    4,204
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I think there's a lot MJ teachers can learn from WCS technique, which can then be converted to be suitable for MJ,
    Franck's slotted workshop at Storm was a great example of this. And the guys doing it seemed to really like it as well, as it gave them something different to work with. It wasn't just about learning new moves, it was about thinking about the dance differently. Interestingly, it had quite a few men over as well, so there's obviously a good deal of interest.

    I do wonder though how much people actually take away from the weekender workshops. Someone asked me to dance later who had done the workshop, but didn't use any of the techniques we'd learnt at all

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    but I don't think it would make commercial sense for Ceroc to "embrace" WCS and teach it.
    Well they have tried and it didn't work. The Sunday night classes and freestyle at Clapham (which I sadly never managed to do) were an attempt at this. Now whether it would have worked better on another night of the week I don't know. But for the moment, it doesn't seem to be viable.

  7. #7
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,864
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post

    The fact that it’s worked for the last 25yrs and I hope for the next 25yrs is that’s its simple and easy to learn with no fixed foot work

    why cant other dances stand on there own and leave my beloved ceroc alone


    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    What i dont like is this 'ceroc' is crap bring in real dances adapt etc all the time

    I love my regular ceroc classes and as stewart says its been keeping people happy for 25 years including me for 9 but..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Franck's slotted workshop at Storm was a great example of this. And the guys doing it seemed to really like it as well, as it gave them something different to work with. It wasn't just about learning new moves, it was about thinking about the dance differently. Interestingly, it had quite a few men over as well, so there's obviously a good deal of interest.

    I do wonder though how much people actually take away from the weekender workshops. Someone asked me to dance later who had done the workshop, but didn't use any of the techniques we'd learnt at all
    I feel i have now learned a whole new concept in dance one from franck's workshop and two from a certain dancer in the blues room at 1 am monday morning i came away from storm excited and just couldnt wait to get to one of our regular venues to try it out

  8. #8
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post

    Well they have tried and it didn't work. The Sunday night classes and freestyle at Clapham (which I sadly never managed to do) were an attempt at this. Now whether it would have worked better on another night of the week I don't know. But for the moment, it doesn't seem to be viable.
    According to some forumites there are 1000s screaming for better more structured dancing


    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    The only reason that I can see for Ceroc to teach WCS is to help it keep the more experienced dancers who stop attending their classes because they get bored of MJ and want a new challenge.

    Some people contend that Ceroc is only interested in the beginner market, and don't care about losing people "off the top".
    How often do we say this how often does it happen ??

    0

    There are more experience dancers at ceroc then there were 10/15 yrs ago

  9. #9
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    SE London
    Posts
    4,204
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    According to some forumites there are 1000s screaming for better more structured dancing

    I was referring specifically and just to WCS classes/regular freestyle on a Sunday at Clapham.

    There may be a demand elsewhere for more technique for MJ.

  10. #10
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,864
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    According to some forumites there are 1000s screaming for better more structured dancing
    As far as i am concerned only in that people who attend intermediate classes should be recognised as intermediate dancers and not improvers to give the intermediate/ advanced dancers more chance of learning the moves and not just to be there as unpaid taxis helping the beginners/ improvers all the time (i am a taxi i love doing my taxi duties but sometimes i want to learn myself and not get hurt by improvers anticipating intermediate moves wrongly)

  11. #11
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post

    There may be a demand elsewhere for more technique for MJ.
    Where on this forum ?

    I dont see it ??

    Why try and fix something that aint broke ?

  12. #12
    Registered User Spiky Steve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Beckenham
    Posts
    433
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    For the last year I have observed that some the better MJ dances have been syphoned off to west coast.

    The effect of this is that although these may become better dancers they are not around as much, if at all, to inspire and help those learning MJ.

    I had a perfectly fantastic Storm the weekend before last with no WCS classes. Personally, I think it makes sense not to promote WCS at jive weekends and help to lose the best dancers from the MJ scene and events.

    Steve

  13. #13
    Commercial Operator onkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cambridge
    Posts
    178
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    As far as i am concerned only in that people who attend intermediate classes should be recognised as intermediate dancers and not improvers to give the intermediate/ advanced dancers more chance of learning the moves and not just to be there as unpaid taxis helping the beginners/ improvers all the time (i am a taxi i love doing my taxi duties but sometimes i want to learn myself and not get hurt by improvers anticipating intermediate moves wrongly)

    The simple fact is Ceroc has a successful formula, and personally I think they should stick with it as it works very well. It provides new punters with what they want, and it does the job nicely!

    Where in my opinion Ceroc fails, is providing dancers who really wish to progress, any kind of structured path to improve. Yes they do some workshops etc, but if dancers want to get better they do weekenders or private workshops.

    Like many of the WCS fans (I include myself), I would love to see more WCS classes. But I think Ceroc should not do it, as it would dilute their brand. WCS offers the challange and structure that experienced dancers would like to see from Ceroc, but I think it needs to be left to others to offer it.

    The problem at present is their are simply not enough teachers around to seed proper WCS growth in the UK. I currently travel 300 or 400 miles a month on for a couple of WCS workshops. Most jaded Cerocers are probably not that keen, as invaraibly the same faces show up at most of the workshops.

    Perhaps the WCS fans should try to pressure the current leading teachers Lee/Cat/Paul do recruit more trainnee WCS teachers. I belive Graham Fox is doing something along these line with the West Coast Central folks, but have no idea on the uptake in new potential teachers.


    Onkar

  14. #14
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North London
    Posts
    9,918
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    For the last year I have observed that some the better MJ dances have been syphoned off to west coast.

    The effect of this is that although these may become better dancers they are not around as much, if at all, to inspire and help those learning MJ.

    ~snip~ I think it makes sense not to promote WCS at jive weekends and help to lose the best dancers from the MJ scene and events.
    I totally understand where your coming from but what happened in reality was, a lot of them went missing at Storm 'because' there was no WCS classes or dedicated freestyle

    I don't really know the answer. My fear is, is that if a more advanced dancer only has limited time and resources and can't do them all, they will choose the non-ceroc weekenders, above the ceroc one's as they feel their needs are more adequately provided for!

    And therefore the divide will become even greater. Hey, maybe that's a good thing? Ceroc can aim their weekenders at the beginners, up to intermediate level and then the independents take over?

    I wonder if thats the idea?
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  15. #15
    Registered User Spiky Steve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Beckenham
    Posts
    433
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I totally understand where your coming from but what happened in reality was, a lot of them went missing at Storm 'because' there was no WCS classes or dedicated freestyle

    I don't really know the answer. My fear is, is that if a more advanced dancer only has limited time and resources and can't do them all, they will choose the non-ceroc weekenders, above the ceroc one's as they feel their needs are more adequately provided for!

    And therefore the divide will become even greater. Hey, maybe that's a good thing? Ceroc can aim their weekenders at the beginners, up to intermediate level and then the independents take over?

    I wonder if thats the idea?
    Good point and I agree for the dancers who have already made the move however a lot of those dancers would not had discovered WCS without the promotion within the Ceroc weekenders.

    Should the better dancers coming through also be encouraged to move across?

    There are other ways to move to advanced level other than WCS. Blues, double trouble and tag fit very easily into the advanced category whereas WCS is a bigger divide, a more them and us divide.

    It is an interesting issue.

    Steve

  16. #16
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North London
    Posts
    9,918
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    a lot of those dancers would not had discovered WCS without the promotion within the Ceroc weekenders.
    I suppose, stopping it now though, is a bit like shutting the stable door, after the horse has bolted.


    Should the better dancers coming through also be encouraged to move across?
    No, of course not, not if it means Ceroc encouraging
    people to ultimately move 'away' but the question was, should ceroc embrace WCS (,therefore retaining them)?

    There are other ways to move to advanced level other than WCS. Blues, double trouble and tag fit very easily into the advanced category whereas WCS is a bigger divide, a more them and us divide.
    This is also very true!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  17. #17
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by onkar View Post
    The simple fact is Ceroc has a successful formula, and personally I think they should stick with it as it works very well. It provides new punters with what they want, and it does the job nicely!
    It provides what 90% of punters want.

    Where the other 10% want or go to is open to debate

    If it only provided what new punters want it would have folded after about 3yrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I totally understand where your coming from but what happened in reality was, a lot of them went missing at Storm 'because' there was no WCS classes or dedicated freestyle

    I don't really know the answer. My fear is, is that if a more advanced dancer only has limited time and resources and can't do them all, they will choose the non-ceroc weekenders, above the ceroc one's as they feel their needs are more adequately provided for!

    And therefore the divide will become even greater. Hey, maybe that's a good thing? Ceroc can aim their weekenders at the beginners, up to intermediate level and then the independents take over?

    I wonder if thats the idea?
    At present Southport can put on half WCS classes and half Jive classes and not cater for the beginner, it doesn’t have a brand to protect/promote

    Maybe in 2009 one of their weekenders will have 80% WCS theme or be just a WCS weekender although given lack of teachers etc maybe by 2010 ?

    That’s fine it does what it says on the tin. If you go to Southport in June you expect 50% WCS type classes. Don’t go their expecting to learn jive /ceroc etc
    There is nothing wrong with that as long as you don’t try and sell something that’s not what it is


    There should be a market for everyone

    There are enough weekenders around to cater for different ‘markets’

    I.e. this weekender would not be suitable for beginners or those in their early days

    It’s too early to say if better dancers will avoid weekenders without a large WCS element

    STORM was not long after Southport and there are weekenders coming up there in May and in Southport. The feedback I read (I wasn’t there) there were great dancers at STORM anyway

    My view and its only a view is WCS is a threat to the very existence of ‘ceroc’ not jive but 'ceroc' and that would be sad

    Is this bad who knows ?? Maybe if they had the teaches Franchises would have ceroc one week and WCS the next in the same hall ??

  18. #18
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North London
    Posts
    9,918
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    The feedback I read (I wasn’t there) there were great dancers at STORM anyway
    There WAS indeed!!! Just not in as great numbers as a Southport. That's all I'm saying!

    Maybe Blackpool this weekend, had more effect than anything else???
    Last edited by Lory; 17th-March-2008 at 03:23 PM.
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    241
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    I have treated WCS as a way forward in my dancing and to help me develop my lead and body movements. I will still come to Ceroc nights if it takes my fancy ie Utopia / H'smith etc and it would be a shame to stop after all those lessons and evenings so far.

    best
    johnnyman

  20. #20
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    There WAS indeed!!! Just not in as great numbers as a Southport. That's all I'm saying!

    Maybe Blackpool this weekend, had more effect than anything else???
    Maybe Blackpool, Maybe Las vegas in May (Warmer) maybe soon after Southport maybe many reasons

    You actually said however ......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    but what happened in reality was, a lot of them went missing at Storm 'because' there was no WCS classes or dedicated freestyle
    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyman View Post
    I have treated WCS as a way forward in my dancing and to help me develop my lead and body movements. I will still come to Ceroc nights if it takes my fancy ie Utopia / H'smith etc and it would be a shame to stop after all those lessons and evenings so far.

    best
    johnnyman
    Thats fine if you prefer WCS then stick to it but dont allow ceroc to be diluted by it

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Newcastle Ceroc Freestyle
    By Billi Wiz in forum Social events
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 5th-March-2008, 04:57 PM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 18th-November-2007, 11:52 AM
  3. Has Ceroc capitalized on the SCD phenomena?
    By Gus in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 26th-September-2007, 07:29 PM
  4. Ceroc History and Bob Dylan
    By JiveLad in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 22nd-September-2007, 09:50 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •