Last edited by Steven666; 19th-March-2008 at 02:49 PM.
I think this is quite a tricky one. I used to draw a slight halo above the ladies head but have since been taught to do nothing. The direction that my arm travels as I raise it above her head will indicate direction and then she will turn on her own. Should I be drawing a halo with my fingers while the hand remains stationary and is that the the subtle difference between leading and stirring? Even then, if the fingers indicated direction, I still wouldn't expect any beginning follower to match that speed throughout the turn. I think the follower is on their own once they've been given the invitation.
The initial movement of your hand should indicate direction and speed, after that you are providing a connection; a constant and equal connection between you and your partner. If you want to slow the turn down, then you apply more pressure and apply the 'breaks' gently. If you want a faster turn, you apply more pressure ahead of the follower. In both cases you rely on the follower picking it up and reacting to it.
The communication can also work the opposite way: if a follower is slowing their turn you should be able to feel it and maintain your hand position until they are finished. If they are turning quicker, you should be able to match your movements and still lead them out of the turn rather than have them lead your hand.
In all leading, preperation is the key. You use count 2 to prepare for count 3. It took me years to understand this twice as long to actually put it into practice. If something is going wrong, don't look at where it is going wrong, look at what's happening the count before it goes wrong: 99% of the time, you can fix it here.
When you're leading, you are guiding the follower to move from A to B. It is really unfair to expect them to react instantly; movements must be initiated before you expect them to move. The more warning/advanced notice of what you expect the follower to do, then the better chance you have of them actually doing it.
Ever wonder why move A flows so well into move B? Probably because the end of move A prepares the follower for the start of move B.
Followers self-preping... that's a different matter and one I disslike - it is anticipation and reduces what I will lead to be exactly what the follower anticipates: if you want me to lead you, then let me lead you.
Just a general overview and not a reply to anyone in particular!
I always thought leading was an invitation; there should be no force applied to make your follower execute that action correctly and in time. A lead can be adapted to make the dance flow better but I feel too much bias towards the lead being responsible for all mistakes with comments like "not if its lead right" as if it's impossible to follow badly. This in my opinion undermines the skills and role of the follower, and indeed the whole concept of dance being a partnership.
[quote=Gadget;461127]The initial movement of your hand should indicate direction and speed, after that you are providing a connection; a constant and equal connection between you and your partner. If you want to slow the turn down, then you apply more pressure and apply the 'breaks' gently. If you want a faster turn, you apply more pressure ahead of the follower. In both cases you rely on the follower picking it up and reacting to it.
The communication can also work the opposite way: if a follower is slowing their turn you should be able to feel it and maintain your hand position until they are finished.
You said it there, wait until they're finished. Both the great lead and the beginning lead are going to have them out off the beat?
a big
Well I was once told by someone whose technique I value very highly that preping oneself for a turn is one of the follow's fundamental, even if the lead does not allow for it or the leader doesn't do it for you. Take a WCS sugar tuck for example: the compression the follow will push off (on her right hand) from (the leader's left hand) is entirely parallel to the slot (hence no rotational prep can be given), and it is the follower's job to prep her upper body in the opposite direction of the turn to accomplish the turn smoothly.
Since I've started doing just that my turns are much smoother.
Note this is only upper body prep and doesn't impact at all on footwork.
This has nothing to do with anticipation, it is simply good turn technique.
But only if you are absolutely certain that the lead wants you turn, surely? I find a number of ladies that prep themselves on 1 when dancing WCS even though I am simply trying to lead direction straight down the slot on that count.
I think there's a difference between preparation of one's torso for a turn and a movement of the hand connection in the opposite direction from that which the follower is expected to turn. It is the latter rather than the former which I believe people are referring to in this thread as a 'prep'.
I'm not sure I can answer this without going into reams of reams of lectures on connection, tension/compression and the like.... so I'm not going to try, I'm afraid.
I'll simply say this - don't confuse the idea of not forcing your partner with the idea that forces are involved in lead/follow. I don't force my dance partners - but with partners who can handle it (which means most followers, on one level or another), I put a suitable amount of force into a lead - it could be very gentle, but it's there. My partner can accept, reciprocate and work off it. Or she can block it or change it. Or she can not accept it leaving me with nothing to work with, which makes things harder, but not impossible.
[Disclaimer]
This stuff I'm talking so passionately about is not easy - I started down this path when I first encountered blues dancing, it's taken me years to learn what I have, and I've got a long way to go before I can do what I currently have my sights on.
It's not the only way to lead - there's many others. It just works very well for me, and for me it answered most of the questions being asked here. Even if I don't always explain it nearly as well as I'd like
[/Disclaimer]
If there's anyone who can guide me towards improving my lead so that the follower does not turn too quickly, then I'd welcome the pointers .
I realise that often it might be that I havn't done something correctly in the "beat/count" before the problem. However, I think there is a myth that if you get good enough at leading, then the followers skill/experience doesn't enter into the equation. I dance with beginners a lot, through taxiing as well as "off duty" dancing, and I have steadily seen my ability to lead people who are bad at following get better and better. However, even though they are bad at it, they are still following, and I can lead them.
The problem comes when someone (obviously through no fault of their own, just a lack of experience) gets the wrong idea of what it means to follow, and they think it means completing their "half" of the move, to the best of their ability. They are now no longer following, and however good the leader is, they cannot lead. In the case where this applies to turns/returns, over-rotated preps are a strategy that can be used to give the illusion of lead-follow.
Dan
When leading a turn you should lead a turn. That is, you should raise your hand above the follow's head, guide them through the turn by tracing the turn just above their forehead, and finish the turn by lowering your hand at the end. An overturn, underturn, faster, or slower turn are all lead variations. This is subtle and the force involved is very slight: I lead returns with basically one finger. But there is force there: it is not a passive lead. The lead, of course, only works properly if the follow provides the tension against the lead. When this happens properly, you can suddenly get some real power and speed into turns with very little force or effort.
What I don't get, in all this discussion about the follow stepping before the turn is this: either the lead was trying to make them turn on the wrong foot or the follow is deliberately stepping off the foot they should be on. If you're doing a standard return, the follow should be turning on their left foot. A good lead will know what foot their partner is on and will be able to lead an appropriate turn.
What I think matters for a turn is that the follow is balanced and is turning on the correct foot. The lead should make sure this is the case, then actually lead the turn instead of some vague arm waving in the hope she knows what to do.
Two tips.
Firstly, learn to lead a return (or any turn) properly - that is actually guide the follow through the turn.
Secondly, control the end of the turn. You keep your hand up until the end of the beat - then lower it and lead the step back on the next beat.
It takes a while to learn this - but just concentrate on it every time you do a return and you soon catch the gist. Dance with some of the better dancers and they'll let you lead a return as well. And you'll leave a few people standing there looking silly for half a beat. One must be prepared to sacrifice dignity for long-term success.
Especially someone else's dignity...
Send them back to salsa, whence they came?
Seriously though - I usually try for a bit more control at that point, or at the very least, pay even more attention to keeping a constant (slightly exaggerated) connection with them. [edit] - it's back to that old point of: if they aren't following me, I'll try to change the way I'm leading them until they start following me.
Last edited by straycat; 19th-March-2008 at 07:04 PM.
See this is the problem, I think you have a contradiction here: 1) Learn to lead better - all the problems will go away, coupled with 2) Leading better only works if the follower is doing something right (e.g. following).
I prefer this approach; lead as best you can, but accept that sometimes this will not work, i.e. god-like leading powers won't help in some cases.
Dan
No contradiction. It works much better if the follower is "doing something right". But leading properly improves the dancing with anyone, regardless of whether they know how to follow "properly" or not. And, more importantly, it improves your dancing so when you do dance with someone who knows what they're doing, dancing becomes something very special.
The alternative is convienient and easy (some would say lazy...), but won't improve your dancing very much. And it won't address the problem you raised - it merely avoids it.
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