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Thread: Preps good or bad?

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    In that very example, if I do just that, i.e. keep shoulders absolutely parallel to the wall, pushing off from the wall send me exactly backwards, i.e. I'd fall backwards. I'd have to be bloody good to make a spin out of that (I'm not).
    My guess would be you were too close to the wall. I somewhat agree with dep - it's fairly straightforward to turn if you're actively leaning on the wall. If you start off balanced, then as you say, you'll end up going backwards (though still with a certain amount of turn - the fact that the force is off axis induces a torque).

    I only somewhat agree with Dep, because I certainly can't manage a full turn from that start, only a half turn.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    .....because I certainly can't manage a full turn from that start, only a half turn.
    I too can only mange a controlled half turn, but then I can't spin on my own anyway.
    I should take Jamie's advice and practice every day for 8months (no, years) but I doubt I'll ever get beyond one unassisted turn.

    I will agree that a prep/pre-turn can be used to make the turn easier and that it can be used to "style" the move.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I too can only mange a controlled half turn, but then I can't spin on my own anyway.
    I should take Jamie's advice and practice every day for 8months (no, years) but I doubt I'll ever get beyond one unassisted turn.

    I will agree that a prep/pre-turn can be used to make the turn easier and that it can be used to "style" the move.
    You will make it sooner than you think. Took me a bit to iron out the wobbles but I rarely wobble now. I just need to reach my nemesis of 4 unassisted spins (without cheating).

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I did before I even typed up my post.
    I still don't agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    My guess would be you were too close to the wall. I somewhat agree with dep - it's fairly straightforward to turn if you're actively leaning on the wall. If you start off balanced, then as you say, you'll end up going backwards (though still with a certain amount of turn - the fact that the force is off axis induces a torque).
    Then you're both much better spinners than I am. If I really try to keep my shoulders parallel to the wall when I push off (that's difficult because naturally you'd want to rotate your upper body a little), I barely make half a turn.
    If I do the same but prep myself by bringing my right shoulder closer to the wall, I can do 1 and a half, and that's on carpet and without trying too hard.

    So, as far as I am concerned, that experiment surely doesn't add any weight to the 'you don't need preping to spin when you have compression' argument dep is making. So I'll stay with 'utter rubbish' for now until proven otherwise.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    he stands in front of me (i.e. on my slot) and gives me compression while his left hand is raised - within the rules of wcs that means there's no other option for me than to go back with half a turn.
    How does this differ from leading you into a step back without the half-turn?

    I doubt that the lead is purley visual with a raised left hand. Personally I would lead the prep with the line of my shoulders/hips and have the left hand {that's the one connected, yes?} slightly off the parallel towards the center, keeping both my and my partner's shoulder's/hips parallel. The compression given for the next movement would not be directly back along the 'slot', but angled to move the far foot behind and maintained until the follower had rotated however far I wanted.
    The 'stationary' part between movements is where the follower may prep, but this is too late for the lead to prep - it should be in the movement leading up to this point to give the follower a chance.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    How does this differ from leading you into a step back without the half-turn?
    the hand is raised, i.e. as a general rule as a follow when the leading hand is raised I want to go under. If you want me to step back, give me compression and keep your hand at my waist level or so. The closer it gets to shoulder height and above, the more likely I am the confuse this for a turn under.

    In addition if you give me compression palm to palm (as in the wcs sugar tuck), I am even more likely to 'bounce off' your palm, especially when the hand is raised. You could probably lead a step back by giving me compression above my shoulder, but you would need to grab my hand and make it clear you have no intention to let go. That'd be weird, though.
    Last edited by Caro; 25th-March-2008 at 02:48 PM.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    the hand is raised, i.e. as a general rule as a follow when the leading hand is raised I want to go under. If you want me to step back, give me compression and keep your hand at my waist level or so. The closer it gets to shoulder height and above, the more likely I am the confuse this for a turn under.
    Assuming hand to hand contact, I tend to work with the principle that a low hand leads steps, turns, blocks and motion of my partner. A shoulder height hand is only a block to prepare for a free-spin and a high hand turns my partner. My hands are only between these positions when moving from one to the other.
    I could lead you to rotate and only take a step back with a raised hand, but I would be applying a counter-lead (either with my other hand or fingers on the back of the hand to give both compression and tension) to off-set and counter the lead of a free-spin.
    ... I'm now confused how you distinguish between the raised hand lead for a step back and a free-spin.

    In addition if you give me compression palm to palm (as in the wcs sugar tuck), I am even more likely to 'bounce off' your palm, especially when the hand is raised. You could probably lead a step back by giving me compression above my shoulder, but you would need to grab my hand and make it clear you have no intention to let go. That'd be weird, though.
    It would be weird, but I think with the correct timeing and lead, it should be possible without 'grabbing' the hand... as long as you were following and not anticipating

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ... I'm now confused how you distinguish between the raised hand lead for a step back and a free-spin.
    Why would you need to raise your hand to lead a step back?

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Assuming hand to hand contact, I tend to work with the principle that a low hand leads steps, turns, blocks and motion of my partner. A shoulder height hand is only a block to prepare for a free-spin and a high hand turns my partner.
    I'm lost here Gadget, especially as I don't think that's how you dance either (I haven't gone that long ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ... I'm now confused how you distinguish between the raised hand lead for a step back and a free-spin.
    Again not sure I understand what you're after ? A raised hand for a step back, on its own, is odd and likely to be confused for a turn under the hand (unless you do other things to make it less confusing).

    A free-spin: well firstly, you'll let go of my hand, and secondly, if you want to send me in a free spin from shoulder height you'll have to do a downward motion with your hand (in addition to the compression) otherwise you'll send me off balance (think first move push turn or whatever it's called). An exception I can think off is the free-spin from the yoyo, but you're not giving me compression, we're not face to face, and I'm basically just following my hand because it's got enough momentum.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    It would be weird, but I think with the correct timeing and lead, it should be possible without 'grabbing' the hand... as long as you were following and not anticipating
    Possible, yes, I never said it wasn't, but it would be unusual.
    And since when do I anticipate - decide to do something else, may be, but anticipate?
    Last edited by Caro; 26th-March-2008 at 03:01 PM.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I'm lost here Gadget, especially as I don't think that's how you dance either (I haven't been gone that long ).
    You don't? It's certainly what I try to do... the most common time my hand is at shoulder height is when I change leads to leading via my hand on my partner's shoulder or am leading from that point... hmmm... OK, so that perhaps takes up a lot of my dancing

    Again not sure I understand what you're after ? A raised hand for a step back, on its own, is odd and likely to be confused for a turn under the hand (unless you do other things to make it less confusing).
    At shoulder height? I've not seen you contort yourself to duck under anyone's hand at that height. As stray says: Why would you raise the hand for a step back? To me it seems like it creates more confusion than clarity in the lead.

    {Actually I keep saying "shoulder height", but I'm fairly sure it's "Bicep height".}

    A free-spin: well firstly, you'll let go of my hand, and secondly, if you want to send me in a free spin from shoulder height you'll have to do a downward motion with your hand (in addition to the compression) otherwise you'll send me off balance
    For a free-spin the lead should mainly be providing a 'sprung platform' for you to push yourself off of - if a downward motion is not provided for the rotational bit of the step back (with this lead), then why dosn't this throw you off-balance the same as a free-spin led the same way would?

    I'm still at a loss with why the hand would be raised to lead a step back with rotation. (I know how... just puzzled as to why)

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    A free-spin: well firstly, you'll let go of my hand, and secondly, if you want to send me in a free spin from shoulder height you'll have to do a downward motion with your hand (in addition to the compression) otherwise you'll send me off balance (think first move push turn or whatever it's called).
    Am I the only one where the pushing down motion actually pushes me off balance?

    I'd rather be pushed horizontal around my central axis.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Am I the only one where the pushing down motion actually pushes me off balance?

    I'd rather be pushed horizontal around my central axis.
    Your "core" that you should be spinning around is just behind your navel: From shoulder-height, that's 'down'.

    What you're probably finding is that people actually PUSH rather than give a stable platform and increasing the tension in the proper direction - if you spun at the speed and with the power that most people pushed you, you would either spin about four times or be finished the spin before they had withdrawn the hand.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    As stray says: Why would you raise the hand for a step back? To me it seems like it creates more confusion than clarity in the lead.
    that's been exactly my point for the last 3 posts or so. What are we discussing again?

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    if you spun at the speed and with the power that most people pushed you, you would either spin about four times or be finished the spin before they had withdrawn the hand.
    That's what I hope for, though I always prefer to self prep any spin, as I know exactly where to exert the force. Otherwise I tend to be pushed off at a tagent.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Ok I don't know bout anyone else but this thread has got me completely confused.

    Could someone Lory, David B, clarify to me what you mean by preping in an MJ sense, I do understand slightly in the WCS sense?

    I may being a bit thick...Ok very thick...I'm not sure if I prep or not?

    When leading Returns and turns then I try to indicate which way I want the follower but if they don't then it may be that my lead is too subtle or I'm infact not doing it properly.

    When doing a free spin then to prepare I turn slightly in the oposite direction to give me the momentum to carry me through a full turn. It also means that I try not to throw my shoulders into it which spins me off balance.

    When leading a return or assisted turn then it can be difficult to get the speed at which the follower will spin at. Some followers will turn at their own speed regardless of the music, the lead and the style of music. Some will be quick and some will be slow, it may be an indication of their ability it may be an indication that actually thats what the lead has lead despite them not thinking that they have.

    Some leads when leading a push spin will put alot of force into it regardless of the follow, music and style! some followers will not be able to counteract this.

    What I';ve written is my own opinion, things I have learnt and things I've yet to master.

    Not sure if this helps at all.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    that's been exactly my point for the last 3 posts or so. What are we discussing again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Caro
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    How do you know that the lead is leading that move? How do you know that there is a turn coming? How does the lead is say "There is a turn coming next" without preping you?
    he stands in front of me (i.e. on my slot) and gives me compression while his left hand is raised - within the rules of wcs that means there's no other option for me than to go back with half a turn.
    Emphisis mine, but basically I was questioning the need for the raised hand and trying to figure out why WCS has these "rules" rather than relying on lead and follow


    Freya: Re:preps - you do a lot of prep whether you are aware of it or not; it's what you do in the breath before you turn or spin. From memory, I think you tend to 'align your core' and straighten up a bit, fix on your partner, 'tense' on the opposite direction from the upcoming turn/spin, make sure your balance is on the turning foot and position your other foot to get ready to push-off with it... that's if you're given enough of a warning/lead. Otherwise you tend to do some of these just as you begin turning.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Emphisis mine, but basically I was questioning the need for the raised hand and trying to figure out why WCS has these "rules" rather than relying on lead and follow
    So, I'm saying: If while facing my partner I get compression at or above shoulder height or my right hand, I will go back (to the end of the slot, and that's the only wcs 'rule' there) and turn. (and the point I was making in the context of this thread at the time was that I would prep myself by rotating slightly my upper body to do that, even if the lead doesn't do it for me)

    You asked 'how do you know that's not leading a step back'

    I said 'that would be a weird way to lead a step back, and if you wanted me to step back from there, there are good chances I would be confused and turn under my hand anyway'.

    This is lead and follow, the only difference WCS makes here is that:
    - I don't have the option to go sideways: i.e. we dance in a slot, if you're in my slot then the only way for me is back
    - after the compression is given I will go the end of the slot until I can re-establish tension.

    The need for a raised hand comes from the desire for a turn while holding hands. It is difficult to turn under one's hand when one's hand is low.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Basically I was questioning the need for the raised hand and trying to figure out why WCS has these "rules" rather than relying on lead and follow
    Modern Jive.
    First Move.
    Lead her in.
    Twist her out.
    Twist her back, raising my hand to shoulder height.
    Turn.
    Return.

    Figure it out in Modern Jive, and you'll have a good start on figuring it out in West Coast.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    This is lead and follow, the only difference WCS makes here is that:
    - I don't have the option to go sideways: i.e. we dance in a slot, if you're in my slot then the only way for me is back
    But I am often told that the 'slot' can rotate in WCS: By rotating the follower you are rotating the slot.
    And that the "slot" is a shared slot where both dancers move sideways equally to 'share' the slot on parallel moves.
    In MJ if I lead you towards me, I expect you to move towards me. If I lead you away I expect you to move away. If I am in the way of where I lead you, I expect to be trampled. If I lead you to the same place I am moving to, I expect a collision. Does the "slot" of WCS change any of that?
    {Completely tangent, but I suspect that the 'slot' actually does change the dynamics of the dance – instead of the follower "flashlighting" their partner, they "flashlight" the slot and it's up to the lead to stand in that spotlight… is this correct?}

    …But anyway, I fail to see the relevance this 'rule' of WCS has to the lead: It shouldn't matter if you could move back, front, side-ways, up or down – the lead should be able to lead you where they intend you to be.

    - after the compression is given I will go the end of the slot until I can re-establish tension.
    I was under the impression that the 'slot' doesn't end until tension is re-established?
    ...again I don't think that this has any relevance to the lead for this move.
    (Although I'm not convinced that I would like to dance with a 'weightless' follower that would continue moving until I stopped them or they bumped into the side of the space-ship.)

    The need for a raised hand comes from the desire for a turn while holding hands. It is difficult to turn under one's hand when one's hand is low.
    But it's not a turn (360); it's a pivot (90). And for that there is no need to raise the hand in the lead - it is even more difficult to turn under the hand when it's at hip height!
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Figure it out in Modern Jive, and you'll have a good start on figuring it out in West Coast.
    I did here:
    Assuming hand to hand contact, I tend to work with the principle that a low hand leads steps, turns, blocks and motion of my partner. A shoulder height hand is only a block to prepare for a free-spin and a high hand turns my partner.
    ...Unfortunately I should have added or turn to the end of the underlined bit. A shoulder height hand is a transition "block" that prepares my follower for a full turn; assisted or not.

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    Re: Preps good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    But it's not a turn (360); it's a pivot (90).
    Maybe here is the source of the confusion. A sugar tuck contains a 360 degree turn over beats 3-6.

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