View Poll Results: Are you going to Utopia @ Ashtons on 4th April 2008

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  • Yes, I will be there

    26 74.29%
  • No, I will not make it

    6 17.14%
  • Maybe

    3 8.57%
  • It depends whether Rocky will keep his hands off his knob (pitch control that is)

    0 0%
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Thread: Utopia 4th April 2008

  1. #81
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    On a general note about classes, I think its very disrespectful to the organiser and the other dancers to arrive late for a class. Full stop!

    Secondly, I'm sure some people join in the class, who had no intention of doing so before they arrived, simply cos it saves standing around. So this may give a false impression.

    I think they arrive late but then think, oh well, I might as well join in now!
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  2. #82
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    I think this class war (hey, everything else gets blown out of proportion on here) is interesting.

    I think David Y is spot on with the observation that delaying class starts until numbers are deemed sufficient can be the start of a slippery slope. However I can also see the teacher's POV in not wanting to begin a class if too few people have yet arrived esp. if there's a significant gender imbalance.

    10 minutes delay set against 5 hours of freestyle is pretty insignificant but I can still understand the frustration if as a customer you have based your travel, etc around advertised class times and these then change.

    I would be interested to know how successful or otherwise the Utopia class has been Rocky. Do you see lots of new faces each time or are you progressing a familiar group through with each event? Do you think the classes are equipping people with the techniques and the confidence to then dance later in the freestyle? I well remember my first very embarassing introduction to dancing to slower music - at Camber downstairs - when I couldn't find the beat or tempo at all so I can see there's definitely a market for this kind of class but I have to also say that I don't like doing 'Blues' classes whether at utopia or elsewhere because it feels very strange dancing in that way under normal room lighting.

    One other comment re: queueing at the doors. I don't think the Black 'Utopia - Admission by Reservation Only' sex shop style door covers were best placed at Ashtons as they obscured the view through for new arrivals who then opened the (inward opening) doors into the back of people who were having to queue directly behind them.

  3. #83
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Rather than entering into the 'war' I just wanted to say what a fabulous night I had at Utopia on Friday.

    I got there around 10ish and was stunned when I walked in with how much the venue had changed appearences from my previous encounters with Ashtons. Awesome! It must have taken a lot of work.

    Loads of people there, past and present, and some fabulous dances. In fact, all of them were fabulous dances. Loved the music too.

    Thanks for a great night.

  4. #84
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    g.

    One other comment re: queueing at the doors. I don't think the Black 'Utopia - Admission by Reservation Only' sex shop style door covers were best placed at Ashtons as they obscured the view through for new arrivals who then opened the (inward opening) doors into the back of people who were having to queue directly behind them.
    Was it a very frustating weekend for you, you can't seem to get sex of your mind at the mo

  5. #85
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Was it a very frustating weekend for you, you can't seem to get sex of your mind at the mo


    It's true though that those door covers always make it feel as though you are going into a sex shop or swingers party or similar when you go into Utopia.

  6. #86
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post


    It's true though that those door covers always make it feel as though you are going into a sex shop or swingers party or similar when you go into Utopia.
    Was gutted the first time I went to find that it was just people dancing inside

  7. #87
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Yes. If you always start the class on time, then people get used to it - and those people who wanted to do the class but arrived 10 minutes late will know to set off earlier next time.

    I've been to other freestyles where they would "wait for enough people" to start the class. The result was that it started later and later every time, and a night which was scheduled to start at 7:45 would have an empty dance floor at 8:30 because the class hadn't started and hardly any dancers had showed up because "it always starts late".
    I understand the point David but you are comparing an extreme case of a class that is delayed by 45 mins in your example with a class that was 15 mins late. Maybe I should have added a caveat in that all UTOPIA classes DO start either on time or within 15 mins of the advertised time and no later. As experienced organizers we do understand the benefit of not allowing late arrivals to dictate timings. However, I think that up to 15 mins latitude on a Friday night to ensure most people attending get the most out of the class is entirely reasonable and am just surprised that some people don't seem to accept this - especially when it is set against a further 4 hours of freestyle at Twickers and 5 hours at Ashtons.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Another thought on gender balancing.

    If (as a leader) I miss the start of a class, I'll generally not bother joining in unless I'm confident I know the moves I've missed (eg. a Ceroc Beginners class).

    If as a follower someone misses the start of the class, they usually have a good chance of joining in midway through and picking up the routine (because the leaders should be able to lead it).

    So followers can arrive to a class late and still do most of it.

    Do you generally have too many leaders or too many followers at the start of class?
    It changes every time - one month leaders, one month followers. Again I accept that people can usually join in whenever they want in the class but this class was different. We were teaching a tag class with groups of 2 leaders and 2 followers working together in a team of 4. This meant that although followers could join in during the class, leaders had to join in groups of two, so that was never really going to happen. That again is why we used our discretion to ensure that the right numbers and balance of genders were in place before starting - albeit with an agreement between the 4 teachers that we wouldn't start later than 15mins after the advertised time.

  8. #88
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    But correct me if I'm wrong, don't the classes at Twickenham usually start earlier?
    Yes they start at 7.45pm because we finish at 1am at Twickers - and they start at 8.45pm because we finish at 3am at Ashtons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Anyway Rocky, I think you've blown my small negative comment way out of proportion.
    You're maybe right in that I've perhaps been over-sensitive to this issue Lory, but you also have to understand where that comes from. We spend a lot of time organizing our classes and in the case of Ashtons, paid for extra teachers to come down to try and make the start of the night as special as possible. For you to say (albeit in passing) that most people try to 'avoid' the class or that 'it should be knocked on the head' is just a wee bit of a kick in the plums when it would be so much easier for us (and cheaper on occasion) not to run a class in the first place. That's all..

  9. #89
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I would be interested to know how successful or otherwise the Utopia class has been Rocky. Do you see lots of new faces each time or are you progressing a familiar group through with each event? Do you think the classes are equipping people with the techniques and the confidence to then dance later in the freestyle?
    We roughly get around 50% usual class attendees and 50% new faces on each class. That's why we think it's important to run them: we're progressing people through who started at the beginning and then also bringing new dancers along too.

    As regards your last point, the answer is yes we believe the classes are doing that. We see it in their dancing and I feel it in the followers ability to follow when I dance with some of them later.

  10. #90
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    just a wee bit of a kick in the plums
    Sorry darling, didn't mean to hurt your plums!
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  11. #91
    Registered User Spiky Steve's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    I just wanted to say I had a great time at Utopia on Friday.

    The music and decor and atmosphere were fantastic and thanks to the efforts made to make the evening different and special.

    I loved the class. We found it easier to fix as a group of five and our followers seemed to be having a great time. I thought the choreographed tag was thought out superbly not only teaching some lovely bluesey moves but also encorporating some very slick partner swapping. We particularly enjoyed the move where we lead the follows backwards towards the other lead as the leads turned take the other follow.
    I thought the class also should have negated the worries of the couple of people who expressed concern that their partners were going to be stolen all night by teaching the cooperation side of tag. Very cleverly done.

    I thought there was just a few too many people there and I would rather pay 10% more and have 10% less people there.

    Cakes were great too although I needed the enery a little earlier and it would have been a good way to remove some dancers from the floor about 1am.

    Thanks to all for my lovely dances, you know who you are !!

    Spiky

  12. #92
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    I would rather pay 10% more and have 10% less people there.
    Probably not as simple as that because that doesn't take into account the number of people who are given free entry to Utopia.

    I've no idea how many or how few people get this perk - I' m just jealous 'cos I have never been offered it

  13. #93
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    For me it was a wicked evening - the voile drapes and lighting gave a really good initimate atmosphere and to made it look very different from normal Ashton's freestyles. Thought the DJ's played really good sets - certainly my type of music, so big round of applause to Rocky, Foxy and Marc. Danced my sox off with lots of my favourite dancers, plus many new ones and in fact, didn't have one bad dance all evening (just hope my partners felt the same). The coffee and cakes in the early hours went down really well and gave me the extra boost of energy needed to keep going thru to 3am. IMO I think monthly at Ashton's would be too much whereas quarterly would make it a little more special. Well done all you guys who spent a lot of time and effort to made it great

  14. #94
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I well remember my first very embarassing introduction to dancing to slower music - at Camber downstairs - when I couldn't find the beat or tempo at all so I can see there's definitely a market for this kind of class but I have to also say that I don't like doing 'Blues' classes whether at utopia or elsewhere because it feels very strange dancing in that way under normal room lighting.
    I found my first blues class really illuminating - made it all make sense as I'd just been faced with my first ever proper freestyle and seen a blues room for the first time and felt a bit overwhelmed. It was held about midnight in the latin room at the first SP - Nigel and Nina took it and it was a 'ah, that's what its all about' sort of moment as they incorporated contrast of speed, working with the music etc.

    If I was bringing someone new to blues/slower dancing to an event like Utopia I think a class would be really helpful. I can see why its run, even though its a freestyle event. I might not do it myself, but I probably would arrive in time to see the routine so that if some of the newer men tried to lead the moves on me I would have some idea of what they were doing (I don't mean I'd backlead!)

  15. #95
    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I didn't say you did, Lory said that - you're post referred to the irritation you felt in that it had over-run thereby eating into 10mins of your 5 hours of freestyle... My post therefore quoted both of you and replied to both points raised.
    Your comments should have been directed seperately to each quote then to make it clear exactly who you were 'venting' at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    I'm all for constructive criticism but you're comment is not that.
    It wasn't that much of an irritation to me, therefore I didn't feel the need to write a novel on it. If it had been, I would have put it in my original luvey dovey post.
    As Lory pointed out,
    Anyway Rocky, I think you've blown my small negative comment way out of proportion.
    But as you seem to think it's a big issue, I'll do you a favour and start a poll asking what people think about advertised class times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    On a regular evening where you have classes and a freestyle session of say, max 2 hours, I can see that a 10 min over-run is not desirable - but when you have another 5 hours of dancing available, do you really think it's constructive criticism to suggest that the class should start irrespective of the 60 or so people who did want to do it, just so that we don't run the risk of upsetting a handful of people sitting on the sidelines waiting for the freestyle to begin?
    Do you pluck numbers from the air? There were as many sitting on the sidelines, if not more, than were doing the class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Obviously you do - and at this point can I remind you of this in your earlier post...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella
    I wasn't feeling too well early on, (must remember not to mix pain killers and wine in future! )
    I only had the wine because I was sitting on the sidelines, socialising and waiting to dance

    and yet most hot shots don't get to the venue until at least an hour after we open doors anyway! Is it REALLY that difficult to wait for 10mins to start your dancing when you have 5 hours of freestyle to look forward to?
    When my travel time adds up to 4 hours, yes I do want as much dancing time as is possible, especially at the beginning and end of the evening when there is more room on the dancefloor.

    You're maybe right in that I've perhaps been over-sensitive to this issue Lory, but you also have to understand where that comes from. We spend a lot of time organizing our classes and in the case of Ashtons, paid for extra teachers to come down to try and make the start of the night as special as possible. For you to say (albeit in passing) that most people try to 'avoid' the class or that 'it should be knocked on the head' is just a wee bit of a kick in the plums when it would be so much easier for us (and cheaper on occasion) not to run a class in the first place. That's all..
    Without that dedication, the Utopia events wouldn't be so well supported so it is obviously appreciated. But different parts of that hard work appeal to different customers, so if one or two people point out one bit that isn't to their taste, the proffessional thing to do surely, is listen and smile sweetly. (Gritting your teeth is optional)
    My personal choice would be for all freestyles to be exactly that, a freestyle.

  16. #96
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    As Lory pointed out,
    But as you seem to think it's a big issue, I'll do you a favour and start a poll asking what people think about advertised class times.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    Do you pluck numbers from the air? There were as many sitting on the sidelines, if not more, than were doing the class.
    True, but IMO probably only a handful that were concerned about the 10 min over run, hence the number quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I only had the wine because I was sitting on the sidelines, socialising and waiting to dance
    Exactly, and what a lovely way to spend 10 mins..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    When my travel time adds up to 4 hours, yes I do want as much dancing time as is possible, especially at the beginning and end of the evening when there is more room on the dancefloor.
    And that's what you got - we over-run on the class by 10 mins and gave you ten minutes extra at the end. So you had exactly what was promised, and as you said you weren't in the right frame of mind at the beginning of the evening that would suggest that the extra 10 mins at the end were more valuable to you surely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    Without that dedication, the Utopia events wouldn't be so well supported so it is obviously appreciated. But different parts of that hard work appeal to different customers, so if one or two people point out one bit that isn't to their taste, the proffessional thing to do surely, is listen and smile sweetly. (Gritting your teeth is optional)
    My personal choice would be for all freestyles to be exactly that, a freestyle.
    I agree, and that was me smiling... The professional thing is not just to read it and ignore it, the professional thing is to try and understand if it is a real issue that affects many more people or whether or not it is an entirely localised personal view. Or would you rather that organizers didn't try to understand your point of view and act on it if necessary?

    And likewise it's also entirely reasonable that if someone criticises something that you consider to be unfair that you would ask them to clarify what exactly they mean whilst also explaining why things happened the way they did and also explaining the rationale behind it. And that's all I did if you re-read my posts.

  17. #97
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post

    One other comment re: queueing at the doors. I don't think the Black 'Utopia - Admission by Reservation Only' sex shop style door covers were best placed at Ashtons as they obscured the view through for new arrivals who then opened the (inward opening) doors into the back of people who were having to queue directly behind them.
    They must have been taken down when I arrived, but the drawing pins were still there.

    As I pushed the door open I caught my coat sleeve on a drawing pin and had to ask the girl behind me to unhook me from the door.

    Had a 2 inch pulled thread. Luckily it was an old wool coat.

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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    On a general note about classes, I think its very disrespectful to the organiser and the other dancers to arrive late for a class. Full stop!

    Secondly, I'm sure some people join in the class, who had no intention of doing so before they arrived, simply cos it saves standing around. So this may give a false impression.

    I think they arrive late but then think, oh well, I might as well join in now!
    I once arrived at Hammersmith at 9pm to avoid the class. It was still on, but I thought it was nearly finishing due to the time. It is hard to see how far along a class is.

    So I took my coat off and sat down to wait...... and it went on for another 20 minutes. By this time I was chilled to the bone. It was a freezing night and there was no heating.

    I put my coat back on, but just couldn't get warm. So then I was worried about my hamstring and didn't want to just launch into a dance.

    So I had to go to the pub to thaw out.

  19. #99
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    They must have been taken down when I arrived, but the drawing pins were still there.

    As I pushed the door open I caught my coat sleeve on a drawing pin and had to ask the girl behind me to unhook me from the door.

    Had a 2 inch pulled thread. Luckily it was an old wool coat.
    They were stuck on with sticky tape - I took them down


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    Re: Utopia 4th April 2008

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    They were stuck on with sticky tape - I took them down
    Oh, sorry, the drawing pin must have been put there by someone else.

    I know who you are now Minnie Mouse, I was going to say hello, but you were busy on the door, as there was a queue.

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