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Thread: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    That would need a very broad definition of WCS type.

    The schedules for the past year or so, which have been posted here, show either 4 or 5 WCS workshops out of more than 40 which is either a little above or a little below 10% of the total.

    Other than slotted / smooth jive type stuff there isn't much that looks like WCS; Ceroc probably has more of that type of class.
    Yes i take it to include Jive

    The comment was from 'memory'

    Having looked at the dance classes in Feb as you suggest the WCS dance classes were a lot less then i remembered in future Ill check my facts first

    rep on the way

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    WCS has (and perhaps only on this forum) a smug air to it ie when are you going to move up to WCS and become a better dancer (the statement maybe true but it’s the tone)
    Everything that you learn about dancing can improve a persons dancing, provided you apply that knowledge properly.

    Almost all of those people that I now see at WCS competitions and weekenders used to be seen dancing blues at weekenders. I didn't get the impression that they were dancing in the blues room because they were "smug" that they were too good for the main room, just that they had done the main room MJ thing for quite a few years and were looking for a way to develop new skills. That search for new skills and interesting new dance expereinces has now taken many of them into WCS (and/or Argentine tango). Who knows what they may try next? At a recent weekender I saw a lot of them having great fun in Night club two step and country two step classes and line dancing, and they were having great fun. So what? Does that mean that they are bored with WCS or just that they are exploring everything to see if they like it?

    Every dance that I have tried has taught me something new. A lot of that knowledge I have been able to apply in my MJ. Knowlege is knowledge no matter where you get it from and in my experience there is very little of it that doesn't come in useful at some point in your life.

    So are WCS dancers "smug"? Not in my experience. Many of them are extremely passionate about what they are doing - just as many of the better MJ dancers are passionate about what they are doing.

    When I look around a dance floor and see dancers that look very good to me I never think that they are just naturally talented. I think that they were not born that way they must have learned how to do that. So if they have learned then it must be possible for me to learn how to do that as well. So how and where did they learn how to do that? If I find out that they have learned something at AT classes then I will look there. If they have learned through WCS or line dancing then that is what I will try.

    So if a good MJ or WCS dancer tells me that one of the ways they improved their dancing was by learning another dance form I have two choices.

    Ignore their advice or take it.

    If I ignore their advice I can't really spend my time whining at them that my dancing isn't improving.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    You have anserwed you own question and like many others have been patronisng and sarcastic re ceroc dancers along the way. Yes lets hope a few ceroc dancer learn to dance along the way I doubt it
    Was that patronising? Perhaps a little sarcastic, but that's my humor. My intent was to underline the emphisis for Ceroc is on the social side of things rather than the technical side. And conversley WCS seems to emphisise the technical over the social. The implication of the thread's title is therefore that Ceroc should abandon the social and concentrate on the technical. A bad move IMHO.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Was that patronising? Perhaps a little sarcastic, but that's my humor. My intent was to underline the emphisis for Ceroc is on the social side of things rather than the technical side. And conversley WCS seems to emphisise the technical over the social. The implication of the thread's title is therefore that Ceroc should abandon the social and concentrate on the technical. A bad move IMHO.
    I don't think this is necessarly true, WCS is a SOCIAL dance it just happens to be somewhat more technical as in every thing in life the more you put into it the more you get out of it

    Regards Over and out

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Should Ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values?

    I don't think there has to be a choice between the two.

    Ceroc has run Ballroom, Latin, WCS and Lindy Hop classes, at different times for a long time. I don't think this got in the way of the normal Ceroc nights running in the bigger room or on other nights.

    Can Ceroc make a profit from WCS? Will their involvement be good for WCS dancers? Will they be able to attract or retain proficient teachers? Don’t know, don’t know, don’t know. I’m pretty sure existing Ceroc dancers needn’t worry about the contamination of their beloved Ceroc however.

    What you should all be worrying about is
    Last edited by Amir; 21st-March-2008 at 02:57 AM. Reason: to add the cryptic ending which I think makes me seem artistic and mysterious

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Unfortuantely 99% of it is coming from teachers in the US. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of these over-engineered ideas numerous times. A lot of it is very useful and succinct but there is a good proportion that I hear and wonder if the teacher understands it themselves!!
    Fair enough. I've not been to the US, but I've seen exactly the same phenomena elsewhere. It's scary watching someone who does know what they're talking about though.

    Be thankful that a lot of it was useful for you though

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart38
    The focus on this thread is WCS because it could pose a ‘direct threat’ to Ceroc unlike Tango etc . For example I don’t think the better ceroc dancers would avoid a jive weekender if there was no Tango ?
    I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that WCS is a "threat" to Ceroc. Even in California it's not widely known. MJ has far too much momentum to be usurped from it's position by WCS.

    If you mean that better dancers may move onto WCS and away from MJ entirely then I still don't think you've got anything to worry about - Most of the WCSer's I can think of dance both forms, and continue to do so quite happily. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a war between MJ and WCS.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Everything that you learn about dancing can improve a persons dancing, provided you apply that knowledge properly.

    Almost all of those people that I now see at WCS competitions and weekenders used to be seen dancing blues at weekenders. I didn't get the impression that they were dancing in the blues room because they were "smug" that they were too good for the main room, just that they had done the main room MJ thing for quite a few years and were looking for a way to develop new skills. That search for new skills and interesting new dance expereinces has now taken many of them into WCS (and/or Argentine tango). Who knows what they may try next?
    Good point. I camp in the Blues Room at Southport because it is gives me something that is hard to find in the main room - apart from physical space that is the ability to play a little with the music and be more expressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    So are WCS dancers "smug"?
    Some are - but then so are some people who dance MJ/Tango or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    When I look around a dance floor and see dancers that look very good to me I never think that they are just naturally talented. I think that they were not born that way they must have learned how to do that. So if they have learned then it must be possible for me to learn how to do that as well.
    Probably the key to the original question. Embrace the bits that add to MJ. If you see something that looks good being done by a westie (or someone doing Tango or whetever) then ask them to show you - I've never seen anyone annoyed by that just, pleased that you've identified them as someone to learn from.

    For me some of what these other dance forms give me is musicality, and to be honest that is what I find missing when I travel to traditional CEROC venues so if nothing else please embrace this into the 'core values'

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Can Ceroc make a profit from WCS? Will their involvement be good for WCS dancers? Will they be able to attract or retain proficient teachers? Don’t know, don’t know, don’t know. I’m pretty sure existing Ceroc dancers needn’t worry about the contamination of their beloved Ceroc however.

    What you should all be worrying about is

    Im still waiting

    What should we be worrying about


    ps thats 3 don't knows

    Hardly ever get that on here

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that WCS is a "threat" to Ceroc. Even in California it's not widely known.

    Is that WCS or MJ that is not widely known in California. It won't take you by surprise to know that WCS has been officially recognised as the state dance of California and is more popular and danced more than Salsa...

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    ...What you should all be worrying about is
    Im still waiting

    What should we be worrying about


    ps thats 3 don't knows

    Hardly ever get that on here
    You have to admire someone that logs in at 01:54 to write something enigmatic that leaves people hanging

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    What you should all be worrying about is
    .......the trend to carpet over dancefloors for Health & Safety reasons.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    I have been reading this thread with some interest. The argument between Ceroc and MJ....

    Nice to see Stewart38 is still running round in circles and having the same discussion he was having 3 years ago Perhaps it is this attitude that influences some people to switch. Ah the telephone book.. brings back fun memories of the Jango Christmas Panto back in 2005..

    I don't understand why it has to be an argument. Why can't the two dances live in unison? Why do people like Stewart38 really care who does MJ and what WCS is doing to all those stalwart Cerocers... I dance for myself and am not really fussed what everyone else does. Those advanced dancers who apparently have to stick around to encourage beginner dancers... umm why? They are not Ceroc staff, they have no actual loyalty to Ceroc they are just learning dancing because they love it and doing what they want. that's what taxi's are for.

    I find that within WCS, people don't start arguments for the sake of it. They just love dancing and that's pretty much it. I find MJ music very difficult on the ear, very poundy and loud. That's just a personal preference. That is what people do, I believe that a reason a lot of people have moved to WCS is because 3 and 4 years ago, the music wasn't really common (except for those of us who knew where to go! ) once it got more exposure, it led people to realise there was more out there and wanted to give it a try.

    You can't blame people for doing what they want and following music and dance styles that they like.

    If Stewart wants to do Ceroc until the day he dies, that's great, brilliant.. you do that, I'm not going to stop you and I doubt any Coasters would bear a grudge to you because of it. You don't see many West coasters running around arguing if MJ is going to ruin West Coast...

    But don't get your knickers in a twist because some of us don't.

    As Gordieed said, you can't fight change, it's going to happen whether you like it or not. You can either make it easy for yourself accept that some people are going to move on or find yourself angry for most of your life because everyone is not doing what you want them to. Believe me, I've tried.. it doesn't work.
    Last edited by KatieR; 26th-March-2008 at 11:46 PM.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordieed View Post
    Is that WCS or MJ that is not widely known in California. It won't take you by surprise to know that WCS has been officially recognised as the state dance of California and is more popular and danced more than Salsa...
    I'm well aware it's their state dance, but none of the ex-pat Californians I know think WCS is big (at least in relative terms - the American definition of big is pretty big after all). I've even been told the scene is tiny "back home" by Tatiana, and I'm inclined to trust her judgment on that one.

    For what it's worth, Maori is an official language of New Zealand. More people speak French than Maori here though. As it happens, most Maori don't speak Maori.....

    I would love to know where you could find figures supporting the claim that salsa is less popular than WCS in California. I very much doubt there are extensive registries anywhere with that kind of information.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    What you should all be worrying about is
    Possibly so, but I'd say an even more alarming trend you've not even touched on would be the

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I would love to know where you could find figures supporting the claim that salsa is less popular than WCS in California. I very much doubt there are extensive registries anywhere with that kind of information.
    As I didn't do the count myself I will just have to trust the word of others. Saying that I have been told that fact by a few people over the last year and they have either lived or come from California. Like most points of view it depends on what angle you are looking at it. To people in MJ it looks like alot is going on. Most people in the UK wouldn't have a clue about it or heard of MJ. It is interesting that you use the word popular. Even non dancers would say that they might like Salsa but may never try it but would know it vaguely by sight. Does that help make it more popular. Not in the act of dancing it alt least. Likewise it shows by the popularity of shows like the Strictly franchise that the public are aware of dances even if they don't dance them.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR View Post
    I find MJ music very difficult on the ear, very poundy and loud. That's just a personal preference. That is what people do, I believe that a reason a lot of people have moved to WCS is because 3 and 4 years ago, the music wasn't really common (except for those of us who knew where to go! ) once it got more exposure, it led people to realise there was more out there and wanted to give it a try.

    You can't blame people for doing what they want and following music and dance styles that they like.
    So the real question is not about Ceroc Vs WCS it's about the music that's played. Despite almost everyone saying that WCS music can be used to dance MJ and MJ music can be used to dance WCS...

    So should Ceroc play country songs, or will it just encourage country dancers? Salsa songs? Dare they play the odd Tango track?... Or should Ceroc just stick to playing pop and change the play list with every new Now! album released?

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I'm well aware it's their state dance, but none of the ex-pat Californians I know think WCS is big (at least in relative terms - the American definition of big is pretty big after all). I've even been told the scene is tiny "back home" by Tatiana, and I'm inclined to trust her judgment on that one.
    I'm inclined to agree.

    Personal datapoint:

    Went to a WCS class in LA, taught by a very big name (Heidi). We actually missed the lesson - LA rush hour traffic is not for the timid... In the freestyle, there were maybe 20 dancers max.

    In contrast, when I visited a Salsa class in the same area, it was basically packed.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR View Post
    I find MJ music very difficult on the ear, very poundy and loud. That's just a personal preference. That is what people do, I believe that a reason a lot of people have moved to WCS is because 3 and 4 years ago, the music wasn't really common (except for those of us who knew where to go! ) once it got more exposure, it led people to realise there was more out there and wanted to give it a try.
    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR View Post

    You can't blame people for doing what they want and following music and dance styles that they like.
    So the real question is not about Ceroc Vs WCS it's about the music that's played. Despite almost everyone saying that WCS music can be used to dance MJ and MJ music can be used to dance WCS...

    So should Ceroc play country songs, or will it just encourage country dancers? Salsa songs? Dare they play the odd Tango track?... Or should Ceroc just stick to playing pop and change the play list with every new Now! album released?
    At my regular venue (not a Ceroc one) we play all sorts of music. Country does feature (not my favourite), rock, pop, tango, latin (slow salsa and others) and pretty much anything else you might find with the right range of tempos to dance to - but we're still a MJ venue through and through.

    I personally like the variety in the music, it gives dancers of all abilities a range of different tempos and moods to play with and that's what I want. It is not to everyone's taste though, some people like to have the repeatability that comes from a pounding beat.

    Even with the variety in music we see dancers coming and going, I guess we're all a fickle lot searching for new challenges and ways of growing in our dancing and to me that comes from a bit of variety.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR View Post
    I find that within WCS, people don't start arguments for the sake of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KatieR View Post

    Nice to see Stewart38 is still running round in circles

    Why do people like Stewart38 really care who does MJ and what WCS is doing to all those stalwart Cerocers...

    If Stewart wants to do

    But don't get your knickers in a twist because some of us don't.


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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    What you should all be worrying about is
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Possibly so, but I'd say an even more alarming trend you've not even touched on would be the

    I see an alarming worrying trend developing along the lines of

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