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Thread: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry
    I am unsure whether any one in Ceroc teaches a Musicality workshop where they mention 32 bar phrases of music?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Trampy taught a musicality workshop for Ceroc here at the weekend....
    I think there was also a Utopia musicality workshop taught by David Rokov (Rocky) and Val Forsey.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    What are you smoking ?

    Obviously not the bitter stuff you do. My comment was that everything has a lifespan. Instead of being negative enjoy what there is now. There will be great Southport events in the future but one day they won't exist anymore.

    Thank you for letting me have to explain myself...

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    So my rant a few years back that some who dance in the a certain Jive champs had all the musicality of a telephone book has been proven to be true

    Without WCS we have no musicality
    you really want to bring this back up and what a fool you made of yourself....

    you asked for us all to leave that alone and admited it was a silly comment

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    I think there was also a Utopia musicality workshop taught by David Rokov (Rocky) and Val Forsey.
    Urmmm... Val Rokov..

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Without WCS we have no musicality
    Dont think I agree with that


    On the subject of Ceroc and WCS I thought I should add something as I was one of the ones who taught for them.

    In my opinion Ceroc should be applauded for taking the option of giving people these 'taster' workshops. Lets not forget that Ceroc played a huge part in ramping up WCS in the first place.

    The question of whether there should be WCS at future events is a tricky one.

    On the one hand I would say yes purely because I enjoy WCS and the response in the past has been overwhelmingly favourable. However, there ARE other dance styles that can bring fun, along with a new outlook, to the course of a dance weekender.

    Yes, WCS has a number of interested people but we need to remember that this number is still small. These are modern jive weekends and, as such, need to make sure they cater to the vast majority.

    I still think WCS can still be a big participatory style in this country but I worry. I worry when I see things like the posts above about the 12 points on a foot. I understand that a question was asked and the answer given but this is a prime example of the reason why WCS may never take a strangle hold in the UK. THE SEARCH FOR COMPLEXITY!!!

    I have witnessed so many people trying their hardest to invent complexity in WCS. It makes me sad. (im talking in general here)
    Yes, there is technique and this technique needs, at some point, to be taught but people need to remember that WCS is a social dance. I am concerned that the fun and excitement of WCS is being squashed by the constant talk of technique and complexity. This is definately not going to help spread the word. In many cases it will simply scare away people in their droves.
    WCS is certainly not the hardest dance to pick up but the way some people in the wider world talk about it you would think its like finding the lost ark (just like indiana jones!)

    I just think that dancing is about having fun. Lets stick to that. When talking to people about WCS lets point out all the fun things about it without mentioning the technical aspects. Please

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    [...] this is a prime example of the reason why WCS may never take a strangle hold in the UK. THE SEARCH FOR COMPLEXITY!!!

    I have witnessed so many people trying their hardest to invent complexity in WCS. It makes me sad. (im talking in general here)
    Yes, there is technique and this technique needs, at some point, to be taught but people need to remember that WCS is a social dance. I am concerned that the fun and excitement of WCS is being squashed by the constant talk of technique and complexity. This is definately not going to help spread the word. In many cases it will simply scare away people in their droves.
    [...]

    I just think that dancing is about having fun. Lets stick to that. When talking to people about WCS lets point out all the fun things about it without mentioning the technical aspects. Please
    Why do existing MJ dancers learn WCS?

    Is WCS simply more fun than MJ?

    Is it to gain more technique?

    Is it to be able to dance to so-called "WCS music"?

    Is it to look like Jordan or Tatiana?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Why do existing MJ dancers learn WCS?

    Is WCS simply more fun than MJ?

    Is it to gain more technique?

    Is it to be able to dance to so-called "WCS music"?

    Is it to look like Jordan or Tatiana?
    Or are the bored with MJ and want to try something new?

    Am off to try tango at the end of the month for just that reason (well, boredom with MJ classes rather than MJ to be honest).

    Ducasi, I think maybe you could try a poll for those who have been learning WCS and find out what their motivations are...?

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Why do existing MJ dancers learn WCS?

    Is WCS simply more fun than MJ?

    Is it to gain more technique?

    Is it to be able to dance to so-called "WCS music"?

    Is it to look like Jordan or Tatiana?
    IMHO Ceroc is a fab grounding for other dance styles, west coast swing appears to have the most in common with Ceroc in terms of transferable technique, i think that is why there is so much debate about it on here, one more point, i have just watched the ceroc open heats and final from last year, Simon and Nicole, Tom and Vicky etc what stands out from that was one of the reasons ceroc is greatis that ir can be danced to many different types of music...i`d also like to point out that the musicality of all couples was of a high quality.....and lastly we all want to be seen in the same light as Jordan and Tatiana surely????

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Why do existing MJ dancers learn WCS?
    I can only speak for my motivations but they included
    * I like a lot of the music that tends to get played at WCS socials
    * Some of my favourite followers (and friends) were dancing WCS and I wanted to be able to dance it with them
    * Seeing WCS danced well at Southport and at Funky Lush

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is WCS simply more fun than MJ?
    No, it can be as much fun or as little fun as the participants themselves make it. No social dance is inherently more fun than another in my opinion (though I accept the conventions of a competitive dance may dictate a certain attitude on the part of the participants)

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is it to gain more technique?
    No, seeking of technique in and of itself is not an incentive for me. However there are things I want to do in my dancing that can only be achieved by acquiring the correct technique for them and I may find this technique at MJ classes, I may find it at WCS classes, I may find it at Jango classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is it to be able to dance to so-called "WCS music"?
    Yes, partly. I vividly recall at Southport in September 2006 a number of tracks playing that now I would confidently dance WCS to but at the time I felt my jive style didn't really fit with them too well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is it to look like Jordan or Tatiana?
    Imitation is definitely a motivation for some I guess but I know I will never get to that level. Lots of people in this country are likely to have wanted to start WCS after seeing Paul W dance it. Maybe an interesting thread would be whether we admire these people because they are dancing WCS or whether we would similarly admire them if they were dancing another style i.e to what extent does the dance underpin their style?
    Last edited by robd; 18th-March-2008 at 04:13 PM. Reason: cApiTaLisaTIon

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Ducasi, I think maybe you could try a poll for those who have been learning WCS and find out what their motivations are...?
    I'll probably start a poll based on these questions, and move these posts over. I wanted to get a feel first for what people thought, and see if there were things I was missing.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Or are the bored with MJ and want to try something new?
    I agree with that one - there's so much to learn about dance that restricting oneself to a single style seems limiting to me, perhaps I have a low boredom threshold.

    We currently go to classes in Lindy, Salsa & Hip Hop on a weekly basis, of the three though I'm keenest to go to Hip Hop, even though I'm pretty rubbish at it truth be told, as it is a genuine challenge for me - partner dancing really holds no fears for me any longer. But Freestyle Hip Hop is radically different and I'm learning lots of new stuff.

    It isn't to do with transferrable skills though - I don't see it as attending Hip Hop to improve my Lindy (though it may). It's perhaps because i can't stand the thought of growing old!

    so after the ramble my conclussion is that MJ / Ceroc (/ Lindy / RnR etc) should continue their current paths and be accepting of those who want to try other dances, continue to welcome those people to their events accepting that they may do something that looks a bit alien to them. But nobody should feel in any way that they are inferior because they don't have the hankering to try something different.

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by clevedonboy View Post
    so after the ramble my conclussion is that MJ / Ceroc (/ Lindy / RnR etc) should continue their current paths and be accepting of those who want to try other dances, continue to welcome those people to their events accepting that they may do something that looks a bit alien to them. But nobody should feel in any way that they are inferior because they don't have the hankering to try something different.
    Totally agree.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Yes I'd agree these things aren't emphasised quite enough with MJ but I've already been to a blues workshop (independent I'll admit) which taught the popular 4 bar repeated pattern often punctuated with a break in Blues music. And Trampy taught a musicality workshop for Ceroc here at the weekend. I''m lucky to have a musical background which means I should in theory have a pretty good sense of these things even if I can't apply them all that well yet! I'm like theres a break coming up at the end of this bar, now how do I hit it, oh darn now I'm facing the wrong way

    I was at a standard MJ intermediate class last night where the teachers gave a short introduction on what a break is and what can be done with it. It was great to see that sort of stuff dealt with in a regular MJ class, therein lies the path to musical* dancing!

    I've not actually been taught anything about musicality in the (albeit limited) WCS tuition I've had, so I guess that's MJ 1, WCS 0 on that front.

    Dan

    *Obviously there's much, much more to musicality than hitting breaks, although I think some people do seem to equate the two.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulF
    I still think WCS can still be a big participatory style in this country but I worry. I worry when I see things like the posts above about the 12 points on a foot. I understand that a question was asked and the answer given but this is a prime example of the reason why WCS may never take a strangle hold in the UK. THE SEARCH FOR COMPLEXITY!!!

    I have witnessed so many people trying their hardest to invent complexity in WCS. It makes me sad. (im talking in general here)
    Yes, there is technique and this technique needs, at some point, to be taught but people need to remember that WCS is a social dance. I am concerned that the fun and excitement of WCS is being squashed by the constant talk of technique and complexity. This is definately not going to help spread the word. In many cases it will simply scare away people in their droves.
    I think you're overstating the issue a bit here.

    The search for complexity, as you put it, can be found anywhere. There are plenty of posts on this forum alone relating to technique in MJ that could be described as a quest for greater complexity. In this case the only difference I see is that a few of the WCS teachers have the experience in the world of competitive professional dancing to understand these details, and impart some of them to attentive students.

    I remember my first day at Twickenham well....
    We were told to step back on the one, but not use our arms to pull our partners forward. I was just a MJ'er at the time however, and while trying to get my head around all this counting rubbish (and twice as fast as it should be, according to my little Ceroc Handbook!) I did the unthinkable - I pulled in at the elbow and lifted my partners hand somewhat sharply.

    What happened next was an experience I hope to never live through again. I briefly wondered if this was the same terror those who huddled in bomb shelters 64 years ago in this very neighbourhood felt. The teacher spotted my mistake from across the room, which I recall thinking must have been a difficult task given she had her back to me the whole time and was talking to someone else. Later I learned that she was able to identify errors by scent alone, but that knowledge wouldn't help me yet.

    I'm not sure if the speed she strode over with, or the cane that had happened in hand from nowhere, that startled me the most. Was it my imagination, or was there a faint smell of sulphur in the air.?

    My councilor has told me that none of the events that followed were my fault, and it's vital for me to believe this in order to truly heal. I'm able to walk normally again so the physical scars are healing. I do stand straighter than I used to though, and I still make sure my knees brush lightly together with each step so the emotional scars may take a little longer. I may never to be same man I was before that day. At the very least, I’m able to sleep a full night a couple of days a week without waking in a cold sweat, although I suspect that I’m just becoming more used to the nightmares. I take comfort knowing that sun will rise each morning a wipe away the shadows………..
    Or possibly they’ve just mentioned a couple of gems each night while teaching an enjoyable class. 90% of the class won’t take it on board, but for the other 10% it can make a night if they remember it and “get it” eventually. The technique is there for the taking if it’s offered the right way, and nobody’s paying for it.

    Out of interest, how much of this “invented complexity” is coming from the same three or four people? I’d bet good money it’s a good portion. In my experience something is only complex until you understand it, and then it becomes so simple you wonder why everybody doesn’t understand it. Could it be that some of these people are simply not in a position to learn how simple things can get yet?

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post



    I still think WCS can still be a big participatory style in this country but I worry. I worry when I see things like the posts above about the 12 points on a foot. I understand that a question was asked and the answer given but this is a prime example of the reason why WCS may never take a strangle hold in the UK. THE SEARCH FOR COMPLEXITY!!!

    I have witnessed so many people trying their hardest to invent complexity in WCS. It makes me sad. (im talking in general here)
    Yes, there is technique and this technique needs, at some point, to be taught but people need to remember that WCS is a social dance. I am concerned that the fun and excitement of WCS is being squashed by the constant talk of technique and complexity. This is definately not going to help spread the word. In many cases it will simply scare away people in their droves.
    WCS is certainly not the hardest dance to pick up but the way some people in the wider world talk about it you would think its like finding the lost ark (just like indiana jones!)

    I just think that dancing is about having fun. Lets stick to that. When talking to people about WCS lets point out all the fun things about it without mentioning the technical aspects. Please
    Paul
    I was the person who made the comment about the 12 points of a foot, I think I may have done this to highlight the technical side.

    Having been taught by Cat, Lee and Paul Warden who are all great WCS dancers who happen to be great teachers.

    The teaching by these three has always been to a much higher standard, they have been more succinct in the information that has been passed to their student than any MJ class that I have been too.

    I must admit that in a private lesson with Paul Warden he made a similiar comment to you in that WCS is formost a SOCIAL dance but depending where you want to go with it can be as technical as you want it to be

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    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Out of interest, how much of this “invented complexity” is coming from the same three or four people?
    Unfortuantely 99% of it is coming from teachers in the US. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of these over-engineered ideas numerous times. A lot of it is very useful and succinct but there is a good proportion that I hear and wonder if the teacher understands it themselves!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Paul
    I was the person who made the comment about the 12 points of a foot, I think I may have done this to highlight the technical side.
    I was not picking on this point in isolation. As I mentioned above, I have heard numerous theories on the foot from 3 areas up to the big 12 (Im waiting on the 24 point theory! - there must be something I can do with the inside of my little toe ).

    Im just concerned that people hear about these theories and react adversely to the dance itself.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Im just concerned that people hear about these theories and react adversely to the dance itself.
    IMO, theory is only good, when your 'ready' for it. Bombarding people with too much, is just plain confusing.

    I went to a class once, where the teacher was teaching to a room full of complete beginners, some of whom weren't even sure what the dance looked like and he spent a good 20minutes explaining about 'foot pressure', leverage and compression before they'd even taken a step.

    When the time came for them to start moving their feet, half of them couldn't even put one foot in front of the other, they're brains were on overload!
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post

    ................ I still think WCS can still be a big participatory style in this country but I worry. I worry when I see things like the posts above about the 12 points on a foot. I understand that a question was asked and the answer given but this is a prime example of the reason why WCS may never take a strangle hold in the UK. THE SEARCH FOR COMPLEXITY!!!

    I have witnessed so many people trying their hardest to invent complexity in WCS. It makes me sad. (I'm talking in general here)
    Yes, there is technique and this technique needs, at some point, to be taught but people need to remember that WCS is a social dance. I am concerned that the fun and excitement of WCS is being squashed by the constant talk of technique and complexity. This is definitely not going to help spread the word. In many cases it will simply scare away people in their droves.
    WCS is certainly not the hardest dance to pick up but the way some people in the wider world talk about it you would think its like finding the lost ark (just like indiana jones!)

    I just think that dancing is about having fun. Lets stick to that. When talking to people about WCS lets point out all the fun things about it without mentioning the technical aspects. Please

    I agree, absolutely, with what Paul F is saying and particularly his thought that WCS should be a fun, social dance; just as Ceroc is. Those who wish to compete will have different thoughts, quite rightly and will be able to attend technical classes to attain the required level of dance ability and style.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    I don't understand the question in the title of this thread:
    Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    - By "Embracing" WCS, what would change?... erm... nothing. Would the class be taught in a slot perhaps?... wait a sec... would people be taught to use compression and tension?... erm... wait a sec... would they be taught that certain movements lend themselves to bits of music?... erm... Ah: would moves be taught to a count?... erm... nope. sorry; I can't think on anything that would be taught to beginners(*) except to put in the dreaded tripple step :phaph: every third count.

    - Why are we focusing on WCS? There is a lot of stuff that could be learned from Tango, Hip-Hop, Ballroom, Salsa and even Line dancing: dancing is dancing is dancing. MJ provides the most flexible framework I have discovered to insert stuff from other styles. Strip out the "style" from other styles and the technique that is left can be applied to MJ with relative ease.

    - I perceive Ceroc's "core values" to be a relaxed and fun atmosphere where folk can learn to have fun moving to the music and perhaps learn to dance along the way. If adopting WCS into Ceroc will change these 'core values' then it says to me that WCS must not hold these values very close to it's 'core'. And so it follows that anyone doing WCS must be up-tight and serious about their dancing... wellllll

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I don't understand the question in the title of this thread:
    Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    - By "Embracing" WCS, what would change?... erm... nothing. Would the class be taught in a slot perhaps?... wait a sec... would people be taught to use compression and tension?... erm... wait a sec... would they be taught that certain movements lend themselves to bits of music?... erm... Ah: would moves be taught to a count?... erm... nope. sorry; I can't think on anything that would be taught to beginners(*) except to put in the dreaded tripple step :phaph: every third count.

    - Why are we focusing on WCS? There is a lot of stuff that could be learned from Tango, Hip-Hop, Ballroom, Salsa and even Line dancing: dancing is dancing is dancing. MJ provides the most flexible framework I have discovered to insert stuff from other styles. Strip out the "style" from other styles and the technique that is left can be applied to MJ with relative ease.

    - I perceive Ceroc's "core values" to be a relaxed and fun atmosphere where folk can learn to have fun moving to the music and perhaps learn to dance along the way. If adopting WCS into Ceroc will change these 'core values' then it says to me that WCS must not hold these values very close to it's 'core'. And so it follows that anyone doing WCS must be up-tight and serious about their dancing... wellllll
    You have anserwed you own question and like many others have been patronisng and sarcastic re ceroc dancers along the way. Yes lets hope a few ceroc dancer learn to dance along the way I doubt it

    The focus on this thread is WCS because it could pose a ‘direct threat’ to ceroc unlike Tango etc . For example I don’t think the better ceroc dancers would avoid a jive weekender if there was no Tango ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I totally understand where your coming from but what happened in reality was, a lot of them went missing at Storm 'because' there was no WCS classes or dedicated freestyle



    WCS has (and perhaps only on this forum) a smug air to it ie when are you going to move up to WCS and become a better dancer (the statement maybe true but it’s the tone)

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    So when are you going to step up to WCS
    People who join ceroc today talk about foot work which ‘didn’t exist 10 yrs ago’

    In five years time could this be taking from a class for cercoc


    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I went to a class once, where the teacher was teaching to a room full of complete beginners, some of whom weren't even sure what the dance looked like and he spent a good 20minutes explaining about 'foot pressure', leverage and compression before they'd even taken a step.
    I heard a ceroc teacher in a beginners lesson say those who have done WCS could ‘add this’ …….

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